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Could have would have should have. I said I bought the base computer used on a whim at a computer show running next door to a pinball show I was attending in Allentown just to try a Mac out for the first time. I dare say I probably know more about PPC Mac hardware and expansion (there's a word most Mac people don't know) than most now and I've gotten to play with a fully bootable OS9 along the way (no G5 can do that). The G4's case is way prettier than a G5 or Intel Mac Pro (ok, frivolous but given how much emphasis many Mac people place on aesthetics, I would have thought more would have appreciated it). Really, given how most of you slammed my comments in other threads about the lack of gaming capability or a mid-range tower to accommodate gamers (even ones running Boot Camp), I'm surprised that any of you would give a crap about newer Macs given they are less stable and you don't NEED a dual 2.8 GHz Core2Duo to use a lousy word processor (ok maybe you do if you're running Microsoft Office 2008...ha ha).

Unless you do video editing or something, what's with all the urgency to upgrade to the newest Mac? In the PC world, 3D gaming drives the envelope for upgrading hardware. In the Mac world, there's no such thing as 3D gaming (well hardly). There's probably more games for OS9 than OSX. This is squarely Apple's fault, IMO as they don't even try to push a gaming Mac or update OpenGL to run faster, etc. In fact, OpenGL took a major slowdown in Leopard compared to Tiger. I can't even run Xscreensaver at a decent clip in Leopard with a 9800 Pro whereas it can 8x the number of polygons in Tiger without slowing down. Apple doesn't care about 3D.

Meanwhile, the Mac Mini is a bit of a joke. Its internal hard drives are so slow you could probably get better performance from an Amiga 3000. ;) Yeah, I've got one of those too. In any case, it just seems like some Mac people place "new and shiny" over functionality. The Mac-Mini is a case where it COULD be a functional little theater center or something, but Apple chokes all the life out of it by making it TOO small to use faster drives, won't give it even the latest Intel chipset let alone a real graphics card (the AppleTV has a way better card than the Mini and that is just ridiculous!), etc. And what good is small and clean looking if you have to expand everything externally? it defeats the entire point on the Mini and the iMac, IMO. If they made them just a LITTLE bigger, they could have room for a 2nd hard drive internally, a real graphics card (not just a laptop one), etc. and keep the whole clean desktop thing going. Sometimes Apple goes TOO FAR with the aesthetics and destroys function along the way. I mean what is Jobs' obsession with THIN anyway?

Oh well. Make fun of my Mac if you want. At least I'm helping to keep Mac support companies in business.

Woah, chill out!

Its 600 one way, 600 the other, who cares. Either spend the time and make one work like you did or buy a new one. Not a big deal, no one says your dumb for fixing up a computer. I do think you need to rethink your statement a bit though.

Mac Minis (as crippled as they are for expansion), are not really any worse then a MacBook. I work with minis, and really I would take them over any G4 no matter the circumstance (assuming working condition). The prospect of a new Mac Pro may be daunting because of its price, but you get what you pay for, a new mac with a warranty and the certainty its going to last for atleast 3 years. The G4 however will be officially unsupported by the OS as of Snow Leopard, where that 600 dollar crap box we call the mini will be.

I think what you have done is great work! Congrats all around! I love doing that kind of work. Its the reason I still build computers instead of just buying all macs. Just be careful of how you interpret things like forum posts and make speeches directly insulting other Mac users.

PS: I hate OS 9. I am only into OS X for the unix stuff. I am glad my G5 can't run OS 9. :D
 
actually, the Digital Audio G4 has a 133MHz bus and uses PC133 RAM.

My Digital Audio G4 reports its memory @ 133MHz, so I can't say what the problem is with yours.

My Sawtooth also reports ram as PC133. It still operates at 100mHz, it's just reading the ID.

But yeah, the DA was the first G4 to get a bus increase (to 133).
 
I did a little scrounging around to find 2 256MB 168 pin memory sticks that I put in to supplement the 384MB that had been in it (256+128+128). Also put in a USB 2 card for the speed. Did it for free.

Didn't bother with a graphics card or a processor upgrade, which would not be free. :cool:
 
What does $600+ worth of dumbed down NAS equipment have to do with anything? You're suggesting I should have bought a $1600 iMac + $800 worth of equipment (Drobo + 2 500 Gig drives) to achieve the same thing I got for $1200 total plus mine fits in one case under my desk as opposed to an iMac + drobo to be stored somewhere externally? Why not just buy a 4-core MacPro for the same price and dump a 2nd drive in it? You'll get a lot more bang for your buck than an iMac with a Drobo.

1.) Chill-out, dude...

2.) Drobo is actually DAS, which is an alternative to internal HDD storage, which is what you're doing. so that's what it "have to do with anything."

3.) iMac = $1200; drobo + 2x 500 GB drives = $650

So what I'm saying is for $650 more than what you spent you could've had a modern computer with a monitor.

If that's not what you're looking for, then that's fine. If you're happy with what you have, then that's great.

You did a great job of prolonging obsolete equipment, so congratulations. Hey, that's why we love our Macs, with enough TLC and $$ they last forever.

Or was this an attempted ad for Drobo anywhere you could fit it?

Dude, you're taking yourself way too seriously... no need to hurl insults around...
 
Well, not counting the screwups of buying a 9700 Pro that won't work (for whatever reason) in the machine and having to replace the MSI Bluetooth adapter with a D-Link one (to get it to work 100% in both operating systems) and the replacement USB 2.0 card (this time by Sonnet which seems to make fully compatible products) that's on the way, it cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200-1300 (that's with a $260 base used Digital Audio dual 553 computer bought well over a year ago now and counting the recent bluetooth and Logitech 9000 camera additions. Figure about $940 worth of upgrades (? means going by memory estimates) for 1.8GHz 7448 ($400?), 1.5GB of ram ($150?), 18X DVD-RW drive ($50?), flashed Radeon 9800 Pro off Ebay (for $99 + shipping in a recent buy now bid from a guy in Texas), Sata Card + two 500GB drives (about $80 each on sale), USB 2.0 card ($20), USB Bluetooth Adapter ($20).

<snip>

Is it worth it? I suppose in the end only you can answer that for yourself. It won't play newer games, for one thing. I use my PC for gaming anyway.

It isn't about value for money, because upgrading an older PC will pretty much always make it cost more than a new one. It's about getting what you want.

I had the exact same Mac you bought to start with, and it is still one of my two use-everyday machines. Here is my upgrade path (started 3 years ago)

Digital Audio G4 2x 533MHz bought used for $550

Dell 20.1" LCD flatpanel ~$450.

OWC 1.4 GHz 7455 w/L3 cache - $300

CD-ROM -> Pioneer DVD-RW ~$75

40GB HDD (LOUD!) -> 2x IBM 250GB SATA ~$80 each (later augmented with a 500GB WD SATA external for $150-ish)

SIIG 2-channel SATA controller $50

1x 512MB RAM ~$90 each

Radeon 7500 -> Radeon 9600 PRO ~$70 -> GeForce 6800GT (flashed). The GeForce was a project in itself, the card cost $220 at the time but other expenses were incurred in the process because I did the flash myself.

PCI slot fan ~$10

Cheap USB 2.0 card that broke ~$15 -> Belkin USB 2.0 card (4-port) ~$30

Retail copies of Panther, then Tiger ~$100 each plus iLife '06 and Toast Titanium.


Plus a few more odds and ends. Bottom line, I spent more on this computer than it would have cost me to buy a brand new G5 at the time. BUT I was able to spread the cost of the machine over 3 years and the G5 would have come without a display and just one hard drive.

Overall it was worth it for me financially but would I do it again these days? Hell no. The reason being the Intel transition; the G4 towers just can;t keep up and part of that is Leopard's fault - I'm still running Tiger because it's the best fit for the hardware and these machines will be replaced before I move to a newer OS.

A big part of the value for me was tinkering and I ended up with a very serviceable and quite unique computer...the video card project was expensive but rewarding (it blows the socks off a Radeon 9800, though the heat it generates allows the card to double as a barbecue).

A note about noise. The OEM 40GB HDD is incredibly noisy and the PSU can be a bit noisy as well. About 50% of the noise my box generates comes from the GeForce 6800GT and the PCI slot fan. The rest comes from the PSU, since the SATA drives are more or less silent. It is loud by today's standards, though not as bad as a "wind tunnel" MDD G4 box.

By the way MagnusVonMagnum, have you gone to Apple's website and tried viewing any of the 720/1080 HD trailers? My G4 is too slow, even after the upgrades. I'm curious as to whether the 7448 G4s can do it.
 
It isn't about value for money, because upgrading an older PC will pretty much always make it cost more than a new one. It's about getting what you want.

I had the exact same Mac you bought to start with, and it is still one of my two use-everyday machines. Here is my upgrade path (started 3 years ago)

Digital Audio G4 2x 533MHz bought used for $550

Dell 20.1" LCD flatpanel ~$450.

OWC 1.4 GHz 7455 w/L3 cache - $300

CD-ROM -> Pioneer DVD-RW ~$75

40GB HDD (LOUD!) -> 2x IBM 250GB SATA ~$80 each (later augmented with a 500GB WD SATA external for $150-ish)

SIIG 2-channel SATA controller $50

1x 512MB RAM ~$90 each

Radeon 7500 -> Radeon 9600 PRO ~$70 -> GeForce 6800GT (flashed). The GeForce was a project in itself, the card cost $220 at the time but other expenses were incurred in the process because I did the flash myself.

PCI slot fan ~$10

Cheap USB 2.0 card that broke ~$15 -> Belkin USB 2.0 card (4-port) ~$30

Retail copies of Panther, then Tiger ~$100 each plus iLife '06 and Toast Titanium.


Plus a few more odds and ends. Bottom line, I spent more on this computer than it would have cost me to buy a brand new G5 at the time. BUT I was able to spread the cost of the machine over 3 years and the G5 would have come without a display and just one hard drive.

Overall it was worth it for me financially but would I do it again these days? Hell no. The reason being the Intel transition; the G4 towers just can;t keep up and part of that is Leopard's fault - I'm still running Tiger because it's the best fit for the hardware and these machines will be replaced before I move to a newer OS.

A big part of the value for me was tinkering and I ended up with a very serviceable and quite unique computer...the video card project was expensive but rewarding (it blows the socks off a Radeon 9800, though the heat it generates allows the card to double as a barbecue).

A note about noise. The OEM 40GB HDD is incredibly noisy and the PSU can be a bit noisy as well. About 50% of the noise my box generates comes from the GeForce 6800GT and the PCI slot fan. The rest comes from the PSU, since the SATA drives are more or less silent. It is loud by today's standards, though not as bad as a "wind tunnel" MDD G4 box.

By the way MagnusVonMagnum, have you gone to Apple's website and tried viewing any of the 720/1080 HD trailers? My G4 is too slow, even after the upgrades. I'm curious as to whether the 7448 G4s can do it.

Heres a cheap upgrade for you then: http://www.coolink-europe.com/main.php?show=art_list&item=19&cat=1&cat_set=1

I ordered one for my upcoming 4850. It will work on the 6800 and is rating for 18dBA. Should be really nice and quiet compared to the stock blower. It goes for a around 20-30 bucks, nice and cheap - but VERY well reviewed. Worth looking into IMHO.
 
Perhaps, but you have to look at the grand scheme of things--the dollar used to be close to 2CAD, so think of all the money you're saving in other areas, it all balances out in your favor...

(plus just cross the border and buy your mac and you're in business--take a nice vacation here in Portland: beautiful town, no sales tax, two Apple stores, and your dollar has never been worth more!)
 
Woah, chill out!

Its 600 one way, 600 the other, who cares.

It's not $600 the other way (either way really) because they don't include the two 500GB hard drives I need for $600 or even $2400. That's EXTRA. My $1200 figure does include them and the Sata card needed to control them. So for a Mac Mini that would mean two 500 GB drives PLUS the external enclosures to hold them. I figure about $300 there, maybe more if you want it to LOOK like another layer to the MacMini (otherwise you've got some eyesores sitting on your desk somewhere). So you're down to a $300 difference at that point plus the drives will be slower since Firewire 400 gets about half the speed this Sata card gets on this PowerMac and the Mini doesn't have Firewire 800. Plus the Mini still can't play ANY real 3D games and I'd end up having to use Leopard full time and its known for its instability on the Intel platform just as Tiger was (both of which are pretty stable here; Tiger is rock solid and Leopard rarely does anything weird either when I run it). Now when you figure I already bought the used PowerMac I'd either have to try to resell it or put it away some where and eat the total cost I already spent at which point the MacMini + drives come out about even and offer no real additional functionality. The CPU is a bit faster, but the graphics and hard drives are definitely slower. Need I even mention you can get at best an 8x DVD-RW drive for it without replacing it yourself. I've got an 18x one here I paid $48 for and it was simple to install (really nothing was hard to install at all, even the CPU was simple once I found it had a release screw on the back the instructions failed to mention.

I can also at least run the games made up until about 2 years ago on this PowerMac if I wanted to (I don't know why I would when used Mac games go for retail while used PC games go for $10, which is why I still own a brand new PC as well). Other than some 2D games and lightweight 3D, the Mini is a bust for gaming period I think. It can't even run 5 year old 3D games at a usable pace (universal binary included).

Either spend the time and make one work like you did or buy a new one. Not

Actually, if I just wanted to use it as a music server that I don't interact with much on the Mac side (as opposed to doing all my business and most of my web browsing, etc. on it), I could have just bought the hard drive controller and two drives and it would serve music fine with iTunes in Tiger with its original dual 553 CPUs and 512MB of ram. That would have been a total cost of about $500 or 525 with the USB 2.0 card for iPod connections. You could do it cheaper now (prices just keep dropping and I guess $260 for the original tower a year and a half ago wasn't exactly a great deal to begin with according the comments I got (even though it was way less than they go for from actual online retailers, but more than a personal sale I guess).

Mac Minis (as crippled as they are for expansion), are not really any worse then a MacBook.

Did I mention the Macbook somewhere? The MacMini pretty much IS a Macbook minus the newer Intel GPU and built-in keyboard and screen when you think about it.

I work with minis, and really I would take them over any G4 no matter the circumstance (assuming working condition).

Well, if I hadn't bought the Mac to try the Mac platform out, I might have considered other options at the time (certainly a used G5 tower would be a better starting place), but then if I hadn't tried it out, I might not have bothered in the first place.

The prospect of a new Mac Pro may be daunting because of its price, but you get what you pay for, a new mac with a warranty and the certainty its going to last for atleast 3 years. The G4 however will be officially unsupported by the OS as of Snow Leopard, where that 600 dollar crap box we call the mini will be.

My whole reason for avoiding the MacPro is I'm not sure you DO get what you pay for. It's overkill in some areas and less powerful than an $1200 PC in other areas. As for Snow Leopard, I certainly do NOT want to turn this into an argument about things Apple have not announced yet. Maybe it won't support PPC. It doesn't really matter either way for my uses, really, so long as I can run the latest iTunes for another 3-5 years. As for warranties, I've never had a computer 'die' on me. This thing is 7 years old already (nothing crapped out in the shorter 'defect' periods) and its major components (CPU, GPU, ram, etc.) are all brand new now. Besides, even if the motherboard died, I could always buy another stripped one for $100-150 or so and just move all the extra hardware over and I'm back in business.

I think what you have done is great work! Congrats all around! I love doing that kind of work. Its the reason I still build computers instead of just buying all macs. Just be careful of how you interpret things like forum posts and make speeches directly insulting other Mac users.

PS: I hate OS 9. I am only into OS X for the unix stuff. I am glad my G5 can't run OS 9.

Exactly what Mac user did I 'directly' insult??? I start a thread about upgrading my PowerMac and people jump in and essentially tell me how much I should regret doing it. I'm the one that has been insulted, if anyone, IMO. Your next comment is an example of what I'm talking about. So what if it COULD run OS9? That doesn't mean you have to run it if you don't like it. I like running emulators of OLD systems too (C64, Amiga, Atari 800, etc.). They weren't old to me when I was growing up and some of the classic games made during that era are STILL more fun to play than some of today's games, IMO. But when people tell me I should regret my upgrade when I could have had an iMac + Drobo (I'd prefer a MacPro at that price point, thank you very much) or they're glad their G5 is INCAPABLE of booting into OS9 (again who would make you if it did?) that just basically tells me my comments earlier about things I can do on this I couldn't have done one a newer Mac are considered to be crap/worthless.

For that matter, why even respond in a thread about upgrades if you're just going to say go get a new Mac anyway? Buying only new computers from Apple tells 3rd party supporters to not bother so small wonder we don't have much offerings directly from ATI or NVidia on the Mac platform. Who would buy them? A few MacPro owners. That's it. And that's all it'll ever be anymore. I'm sure Apple loves it.
 
2.) Drobo is actually DAS, which is an alternative to internal HDD storage, which is what you're doing. so that's what it "have to do with anything."

3.) iMac = $1200; drobo + 2x 500 GB drives = $650

So what I'm saying is for $650 more than what you spent you could've had a modern computer with a monitor.

Why not just buy two external 500GB Firewire 800 hard drives then for a total of about $300 then and save yourself $350 if that's all it does? I guess you can some RAID like effects with more drives, but frankly I'd prefer NAS storage as I could then shut the computer down. In fact, if I could run iTunes off a reasonably priced NAS device, I'd prefer that as it'd consume less power than leaving this Mac on all the time. I did look at a Squeezbox/SqueezeCenter setup (SqueezeCenter is open source and can be made to run on a few different NAS devices with some hacking (and at least one more expensive one that holds multiple drives like Drobo without hacking) but overall, I preferred the iTunes interface, speed and touchscreen options of using an iPod Touch to control it all over the new Squeezebox.

Dude, you're taking yourself way too seriously... no need to hurl insults around...

I don't see how that's an insult. I simply think Drobo is overpriced to use as traditional external storage. Until FireWire 800 came out, it was too slow (still don't know the new numbers on what it can do) to really consider for any RAID like effects other than the mirror-image replacement, which having a 2nd drive can do anyway for less.
 
It isn't about value for money, because upgrading an older PC will pretty much always make it cost more than a new one. It's about getting what you want.

What I wanted was to not waste my $260 by ditching the thing and I wasn't crazy about trying to sell it online either. Given I use it MORE than my brand new PC (i.e. everyday surfing, shopping, etc. not to mention it serves my music all around the house on demand), I don't know that it was the bad move people keep hinting at here. I don't have an Intel Mac to compare, but given the comments I keep reading about instabilities with Tiger and Leopard on Intel CPUs, I'm not sure even a cheaper/better deal on an Intel would be a better fit for using it as a 24/7 server. I've had one unexplained freeze in Leopard and two crashes in Tiger in the past YEAR on this thing. The only time I reboot is if I'm switching the operating system or installing a software update that demands it. I think I've had more odd freezes with Linux over the past year on my PC which isn't on all the time anyway than I have with this Mac. Now that I've found the USB card issue that was tripping up my iPod touch transfers sometimes and glitching the Logitech 9000 webcame, everything seems rock stable.


40GB HDD (LOUD!) -> 2x IBM 250GB SATA ~$80 each (later augmented with a 500GB WD SATA external for $150-ish)

I've had 40GB hard drives that date back to when this computer was new and STILL use one of them in my new PC (which has a zillion bays in it as it uses an old full size tower case) as a scratch drive for Photoshop7 which I use purely for pinball game development and they have been just as quiet as modern drives. I cannot explain why that Apple branded drive (which I think is also a Western Digital drive) is so flipping LOUD. It made a whiny noise which I thought was one of the case fans, but it wasn't. It was the hard drive. The entire computer with a case fan, power supply fan, two cpu fans and the 9800 Pro fan still puts out less than 50dB. It sits under my desk and it's hardly noticeable. It's WAY quieter than my brand new PC, which ramps up its fans any time the case temperature goes up which goes up all the time when running games of ANY kind and those fans are LOUD when ramped up (pretty quiet when idling or off, though). The PowerMac's fan volume is constant and about the same as the PC in lower idling fan modes.

Overall, the biggest "not sure I need these" expenditures was the ram ($50 each for 3 sticks), the 1.8GHz CPU ($400 something) and the video card (given the first one was a 9700 that died or at least refused to work with this particular model PowerMac after a week).

As for 720P and 1080P trailers, I think I mentioned that already. The 720P ones were almost full speed. The 1080P ones are choppy. I just tried it again; they're choppy at 720P at the moment, but the CPU use for Quicktime isn't even close to 100%. It looks like Firefox3 might be stealing CPU cycles (it seems to do that) so I'll have to try again with it off, I suppose and see if that makes any difference.
 
What I wanted was to not waste my $260 by ditching the thing and I wasn't crazy about trying to sell it online either. Given I use it MORE than my brand new PC (i.e. everyday surfing, shopping, etc. not to mention it serves my music all around the house on demand), I don't know that it was the bad move people keep hinting at here.

I don't think it was a bad move...was it the "best" move from a strict cost perspective? Maybe not. But, as you have pointed out, going with an upgraded tower gives you some capabilities that the all-in-one Macs don't at a price far below the Mac Pro. I'm still happy with my G4 tower, though I do plan to upgrade in a year or two when finances permit.
 
frankly I'd prefer NAS storage as I could then shut the computer down. In fact, if I could run iTunes off a reasonably priced NAS device, I'd prefer that as it'd consume less power than leaving this Mac on all the time.

Ahhhh... then have you looked at Synology Inc? All their models seem to have an iTunes server. Reviews on their iTunes server aren't very plentiful, but what few there were seemed positive enough.

But my guess is you really didn't want purely an iTunes server, or anything that your Digital Audio might end up doing. You wanted a project and it would be great if it turned out to serve some useful purpose.

No need to justify that. I'm sure we've all been there. You're not the first one of us to throw away $1000 trying to justify a $260 purchase. I've done it, too. Guilty as charged, don't tell my wife. (Honey, it seemed like a good idea at the time...)

But then I've subsequently come to my senses, and have vowed never to do anything like that again... but that's just me. And from the sounds of the other posts, some other people may be in the same boat.

I for one think it's pretty cool that you've put that much time and $$ into rebuilding that digital audio. Does it make financial sense to me? No.

But who cares?

It's probably a hobby for you, and well, hobbies don't have to make sense and you don't have to justify your hobbies to anyone, or make them understand. It is what it is.

BTW, Intel Macs are for the most part pretty stable now. It has been a couple of years you know...
 
Ahhhh... then have you looked at Synology Inc? All their models seem to have an iTunes server. Reviews on their iTunes server aren't very plentiful, but what few there were seemed positive enough.

I'm not sure that device can sync AppleTV units. It appears to function as a a 'shared library' which may or may not appear on AppleTV as a shared library, but probably can't sync it as the primary device and of course certain functions like My Photos need a primary device to stream from. Otherwise you have to store it locally on the AppleTV and frankly, they don't make one with a large enough internal hard drive. Beyond that, I need to run Signal and/or Remote Buddy to control the system from my iPod Touch using AirTunes controlling the Mac iTunes from remote. Otherwise, I have no remote control for my upstairs audiophile music-only system which has no monitor to display the AppleTV Interface.

In short, the device needs to run Mac apps like Signal on top of a full blow direct iTunes. I don't think there's any NAS device that can do that. Squeeze Center devices run straight off an NAS server. Therefore, the remote has to be 'smart' and costs like $300-400. Now when the iPhone 2.0 software comes out tomorrow, that new app that will run on an iPod Touch that can control iTunes might change that equation, but I've been running this system for 6 months or so now and there was no indication such an app would be available and even today whether it could control a remote NAS iTunes shared library (highly doubtful). If an iPod Touch could directly transmit to Airtunes devices, I could have just bought two 32GB iPod Touches, compressed the libraries down to 256kbit (still couldn't fit everything, though but I don't want 128kbit compression) and then directly beam to the AppleTV's Airtunes function and not need a Mac at all. Similarly, I could either use the 160GB AppleTVs with highly compressed music (iPod Touch wouldn't work once again, though) and avoid using a Mac at all at least not having to leave it running.


But my guess is you really didn't want purely an iTunes server, or anything that your Digital Audio might end up doing. You wanted a project and it would be great if it turned out to serve some useful purpose.

Well, I've wanted a way to access my 365+ CDs for a few years now without having to dig the discs out (i.e. I won't listen to a song that's the only good song on a whole album if it's tucked away in storage). I looked into jukebox changers, but they're slow and I still needed to have a way to access music in at least two rooms (my audiophile hifi system upstairs and my 6.1 home theater downstairs). I could probably have gotten an IR retransmitter and ran a cable up through the floor or something. You'd then have to catalog either through the Jukebox machine or a folder what disc has what on it (lengthy process). There'd still be no easy iPod access to such music, etc.

So I then looked into Sonos (expensive with giant remotes and other limited capabilities) and Squeezebox and saw the new Squeezebox which had a remote with a screen display and could use a server system that could also be accessed from PCs (i.e. enable music playback in the den off a computer). So I waited and waited and waited until they finally released the new model and people immediately complained about all kinds of network problems, bugs, etc. and it was obvious the new system had issues. It was also supposedly pretty slow to access information. But I tried loading SqueezeCenter onto both my (non-upgraded) Mac and PC and it was slow as molasses accessing it from the virtual squeezebox software that lets you try the system out before buying a squeezebox (SqueezeCenter itself is free and can be accessed by any internet browsing device including the iPod Touch so theoretically the iPod Touch could be used instead to select music instead of THEIR $300+ remote and send to the Squeezebox. The problem is the newer Squeezebox NEEDS the fancy remote to set it up for the first time. People were trying to hack it so that's not needed but wasn't there at the time (not sure if it is now or not). OR you could order the more expensive previous incarnation that has WiFi and CAN work with the new remote, but can be set up and operated from a traditional IR remote. In any case, it was SLOW as I said. Very unresponsive.

I tried loading up iTunes and loaded a few CDs in it and it looked like a nice interface and I could access everything immediately from the Mac. There was a question about the speed of the controlling software from the iPod Touch, but I figured it couldn't possibly be slower than that Squeezebox system. So I went ahead and bought an iPod Touch and tried the software and Signal was very fast considering how it operates (Remote Buddy was a bit slow, although nowhere near as slow as SqueezeCenter but has since been upgraded and now works reasonably fast, although not quite as fast as Signal). So at that point, I could either upgrade the Mac or I could use a PC to control it. WindowsXP is way less stable and I use it for games, etc. which means I don't want iTunes running and I also use Linux on it is a problem since there is no iTunes for Linux (Rhythmbox can play iTunes libraries but it cannot currently transmit to AirTunes devices, let alone sync an AppleTV; it can sync to iPods, though).

No need to justify that. I'm sure we've all been there. You're not the first one of us to throw away $1000 trying to justify a $260 purchase. I've done it, too. Guilty as charged, don't tell my wife. (Honey, it seemed like a good idea at the time...)

But then I've subsequently come to my senses, and have vowed never to do anything like that again... but that's just me. And from the sounds of the other posts, some other people may be in the same boat.

It's not like I didn't weigh in my options. The iMacs at the time had a weak video card (wouldn't replace my PC for playing games with BootCamp) and would require the sprawling desk expansion and I'd have to throw out my CRT. Mac-Mini has the limits I discussed earlier with slow hard drives, etc., but it would at least let me keep my monitor as the primary display. I could have used a Macbook or MBP, but that would be transportable and not be there all the time to serve the system. So it seemed logical to use an old PowerMac that I could leave running all the time and not have to shut down iTunes on it. But since I bought a new PC last Novemeber, I didn't need a Mac that could run Windows games so my original plan to get a MacPro went out the Window (I got sick of waiting for one with a good graphics card and I waited 6 months last year until November before going ahead with a new PC instead, which I got for $800 that can play all current games). I still wanted to run Mac software, though (non-games), so I figured a faster system would run software well and also speed up the iTunes interface, etc.

The total cost of BOTH systems was STILL less than a new MacPro with only 4 processors and I now have TWO computers that can run almost any application software on their respective platforms and the Mac can play older PPC games (even 3D ones) and the PC can play virtually any PC game out there and I can use two computers to do two entirely different things at the same time (e.g. app on the Mac while playing a game on the PC with only a rotate of the chair to update what's going on with the Mac, etc.) so in a way that's better than running Parallels on a MacPro. I don't need HDTV on my Mac (the PC can do it). I watch movies downstairs on my 93" projection home theater.

I for one think it's pretty cool that you've put that much time and $$ into rebuilding that digital audio. Does it make financial sense to me? No.

I didn't think it made much financial sense buying a MacPro for $2400 when I could upgrade this PowerMac AND get a new PC for $2000.

BTW, Intel Macs are for the most part pretty stable now. It has been a couple of years you know...

Then why do I keep seeing all these Leopard threads about Intel owners have this or that problem with Leopard? Macbooks, MBPs, even MacPro owners have complaints about Leopard. My only complaint about Leopard running on this PPC machine is that its user interface and OpenGL performance takes a significant hit compared to Tiger and that shouldn't have happened. It needs optimized, IMO. Snow Leopard could do that but people seem to believe there will be no PPC support so where does that leave regular Leopard? Slow and unoptimized forever? I've had one unexplained freeze in Leopard while using Firefox3. Other than that, it's pretty solid too, apparently much more so than for SOME Intel owners.
 
Then why do I keep seeing all these Leopard threads about Intel owners have this or that problem with Leopard? Macbooks, MBPs, even MacPro owners have complaints about Leopard.

People usually don't make posts that go "wow, I just realized my system is so stable and I wanted to gloat." Usually people post when they encounter a problem or want to whine about something. Heck, there are just as many PPC problem posts out there.

I know plenty of Intel Mac owners who have never experienced a problem. I'm one of them. :)
 
I just downloaded the Prey demo, which I was surprised to see supports PPC. It says minimum specs are 1.8GHz G5 and ATI Radeon 9600 Pro and 512MB of ram. Well, I've got the aforementioned 1.8GHz 7448 G4 and an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro and 1.5GB of ram. So how well did it run or did it even run? Yes, it runs and really, it's not too bad. It runs with some choppies here and there on really busy areas at 800x600 with Medium detail and shaders on high, but areas like the bar at the start of the game run really smooth for the most part. Instead of dumbing down the effects, I tried running at 640x480 instead and it runs pretty much smooth there in areas that had trouble at 800x600. I've got a 19" CRT, so lower resolutions look pretty decent (unlike on some flat-screens where they can get pretty blocky or blurry). The game seems pretty wild so far from playing the first level. However, I think if I decide to buy the game, I'll get it for the PC so I can run it at higher resolutions. Still, I'm surprised a newer game like that can run as well as it can given this base machine is 7 years old.

I'm curious how Doom3 will run here, although I'm guessing similar based on reading some reviews of it. I got some older used games I never got around to playing like No One Lives Forever 2 and Halo and they run perfectly smooth at 1024x768 at high settings so it looks like I'll get to do a bit of gaming on this machine after all.
 
I thought getting Jedi Academy for this Mac would provide a good basis of comparison to my PC since I played it to death (and still often play it) on both my old 1GHz PIII with an ATI Radeon 7500 and my newer one with a 2.8GHz Athlon 5600+ with an Nvidia 7900GS.

To my dismay, this 1.8GHz 7448 G4 with an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (specs that should easily best my earlier PC by a long ways, really given G4s are supposed to be FASTER per clock cycle than a Pentium III and this thing is almost twice the clock speed on top of that) PLUS a WAY faster video card (the 9800 Pro is a good deal faster than a Radeon 7500) and the G4 has a faster memory bus than it (133Mhz versus 100MHz), this game should have smoked the old PIII behavior and been fast enough that during most scenes, I shouldn't be able to tell the game from my newer PC. Instead, the game runs 'about' the same as it did on the old PIII with the 7500, getting a bit choppy in busier scenes in the game. I'm running it at 1024x768 (of course the newer PC runs smooth as silk even at 1600x1200).

SO, this basically begs the question WHY? I can only think of three real reasons and they're pretty much the same ones people have probably heard before. I simply didn't think it was going to be THAT much worse. One is Apple's OpenGL drivers supposedly aren't up to snuff with the same on Windows and Linux and since Apple generally does the drivers, they don't get updated for optimizations like they do all the time on the PC and even Linux (in the case of Nvidia drivers). Then there's the matter of PCs pretty much using DirectX and Direct3D these days, not OpenGL to begin with so any conversions have to convert the graphics calls. The other reason would have to be Aspyr's conversion is simply not very optimized code for the PPC processor. Since most Mac games (especially newer "Cider Wrapped" ones) are ports of PC games, they're almost guaranteed to be less efficient (slower) than on the PC.

So more efficient CPUs compared to same generation Intel or not, Mac PPC games would seem to be at a disadvantage. Given the reviews I've read for some of the Intel only games coming out, I'm not sure the overall situation has changed much. They're still porting the games and the DirectX/OpenGL wrapper thing has to be costing some serious CPU cycles. Add to that Macs can't seem to keep up with GPUs and have zero options for SLI type setups, gaming in general on the Mac seems kind of bleak. I hope Snow Leopard does something to help change that equation a bit.

If Steve wanted to get serious about Mac gaming, he should probably consider licensing DirectX/3D off Microsoft along with making better GPU configurations available. That would make porting much more linear. Sure, I'd rather see open source code rule the world, but in the short term it would help.

Of course this is just one direct comparison. I'm not going to buy a bunch of Mac games I already own for the PC just to compare their relative performance... well unless I can get them really cheap.
 
Still on about this eh?

Its hard to compare performance because the Mac version is a port of the PC version. Though its on the quake 3 engine - that doesn't mean all of its added features work the same. For mac / *nix gaming, its more important that the game works at all then to have the cleanest gameplay.

Could also just be the agp bus is slower on your mac. My G5 plays it with out a hitch. :D
 
I've been upgrading a G4 a lot recently.

Power Mac G4 Digital Audio - $50
OWC Mercury Extreme @ 1.467 GHz, 2 Megs L3 - $220
Radeon 9700 Pro, 128 Megs - $30
1.25 Gigs PC133 - $50
20X Dual Layer DVD Burner - $20
40 Gig Barracuda IV, 7200 RPM (from old system)
USB 2.0 - $15
Airport Extreme - $20
Bluetooth 2.0 - $15

It runs 10.4 great. 10.5 seemed a little sluggish (mostly because of the choppy animation on the dock).

:apple:

I've been learning/practicing re-wiring ATX power supplies for use in G4 systems, and I've been buying a bunch of $5-$10 PC video cards off eBay and flashing Mac firmware on them. I even put my own customized firmware on my website to download.
One of the eBay sellers I've purchased from actually operates local to me, so I've been saving on shipping by just driving out to his place to pick stuff up.
 
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