Intel and Apple and... WINE?

DavidLeblond

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Jan 6, 2004
2,198
286
Raleigh, NC
I know this has been brought up in other threads, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread. WINE has grown by leaps and bounds on Linux to go so far as to allow some Windows games to be played on Linux.

The reason why WINE doesn't work with the Mac is because WINE Is Not an Emulator. But if Apple switches to Intel, it won't necessarily HAVE to be an emulator. So... does anyone think we'll be using Windows software on Macs in a few years? It certainly would be a boon to Apple. What was Gates's snide comment? "How do you tell if you're on a Mac or Windows? Put your application on it and see if it runs?" Indeed.

Of course, are there hackers out there writing a Cocoa API for Windows...?
 

MisterMe

macrumors G4
Jul 17, 2002
10,650
28
USA
DavidLeblond said:
I know this has been brought up in other threads, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread. WINE has grown by leaps and bounds on Linux to go so far as to allow some Windows games to be played on Linux.

The reason why WINE doesn't work with the Mac is because WINE Is Not an Emulator. But if Apple switches to Intel, it won't necessarily HAVE to be an emulator. So... does anyone think we'll be using Windows software on Macs in a few years? It certainly would be a boon to Apple. What was Gates's snide comment? "How do you tell if you're on a Mac or Windows? Put your application on it and see if it runs?" Indeed.

Of course, are there hackers out there writing a Cocoa API for Windows...?
You have to remember that when OPENstep did run on top of Windows. You also have to remember that Apple's original plans with the OPENstep-based Rhapsody was for the Yellowbox (which morphed into Cocoa) to run on top of Windows as well as the MacOS. I believe that there is a lot more to today's announcement than Apple is admitting at the moment. It would not surprise me at all if Cocoa were ported to Windows--by Apple.
 

savar

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2003
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District of Columbia
DavidLeblond said:
I know this has been brought up in other threads, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread. WINE has grown by leaps and bounds on Linux to go so far as to allow some Windows games to be played on Linux.
I took a look at the WINE website (here) yesterday. Still no acknowledgement of the Apple/Intel news, which I find suprising because they did have people working on combining and open source x86 emulator with WINE and running it under Mac OS X.

What I wonder is will Apple take WINE under its wing? If Apple throws some developers out there it would make WINE even more thorough/optimized and in return Apple could include a Windows compatibility layer in OS X! That would truly be amazing.

WINE is already pretty advanced, even runs FPS games which I think is pretty impressive.

As for MS reverse engineering Cocoa: definitely possible, but like all other things I think they're probably way behind. I'm not aware of any big projects to port Cocoa to Windows, so they would likely be starting from scratch.

One question, does WINE use a native API for the GUI elements? So applications running in the compatibility layer run in an X11 server? If so, then somebody could write an aqua library so that windows apps look aquafied. That would be a neat trick indeed.
 

stcanard

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2003
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Vancouver
savar said:
I took a look at the WINE website (here) yesterday. Still no acknowledgement of the Apple/Intel news, which I find suprising because they did have people working on combining and open source x86 emulator with WINE and running it under Mac OS X.
You're looking at the wrong link :) the darwine (Wine on Darwin) stuff is here http://darwine.opendarwin.org/

There's a bit of a discussion on their forums (okay, 2 messages but I didn't look very deeply). But considering the work of porting the winelibs to play nice with Darwin has already been done, when the average person eventually starts getting x86 based Macs I would expect they would fairly quickly get wine running in emulator mode.
 

MisterMe

macrumors G4
Jul 17, 2002
10,650
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USA
stcanard said:
You're looking at the wrong link :) the darwine (Wine on Darwin) stuff is here http://darwine.opendarwin.org/

There's a bit of a discussion on their forums (okay, 2 messages but I didn't look very deeply). But considering the work of porting the winelibs to play nice with Darwin has already been done, when the average person eventually starts getting x86 based Macs I would expect they would fairly quickly get wine running in emulator mode.
WINE on an Intel-based Mac will not need emulator mode.
 

stcanard

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Oct 19, 2003
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MisterMe said:
WINE on an Intel-based Mac will not need emulator mode.
Emulator as in trapping the win32 calls on a live binary (i.e. emulating the win32 api).

As opposed to what it does now on Darwin, which is allow source to be recompiled.
 

Willie Sippel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
18
0
I'm sure the Darwine project will be abandoned very soon, with the interested hackers joining the official Wine project. There's already a post regarding OSX/ x86 support on the wine-devel mailinglist, and the Darwine project is now pretty much obsolete (their main focus was to combine Wine and QEmu - with OSX on x86, there's no need for that anymore). So, the focus will be:

a) make Wine compile on OSX/ x86 - should be quite easy.
b) add a sound driver for OSX - also quite easy, and probably low-priority, as Wine also outputs to Jack and Jack has already been ported.
c) add a Quartz or SDL driver - complicated stuff. x11drv is one of the crudest hacks in Wine right now, and I think a quartzdrv has to wait 'till Wine's DIBengine is done.

Any C developer, especially those with access to an OSX/ x86 devkit, should join the Wine developer mailing list (only developers, please). Remember, OSX support is not a priority for most devs on the Wine project, as the main target and development platform is Linux.

PS: If Apple forks Wine and pulls a stunt similar to the KHTML thing, they won't have any more friends in the Linux open source camp, so I hope they won't even touch it (at least not in a similar fashion - if they want to pay some Wine devs or make a deal with Codeweavers, that would be OK I think).
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Between bochs and wine, I'm sure somebody is going to make us very happy on our next macs.... :) I wish I had something to contribute. Maybe I should look into supporting documentation on one of these projects? I have tech comm skills but not that level of programming skills.

Wine would rock more, I guess, since the apps would run not all run inside a container emulator....

But please, oh, please not in the Apple X11 environment. I hope it lives inside the main OS X wm....
 

Willie Sippel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
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For games, it doesn't matter if they run via X11 or Quartz, it' fullscreen OpenGL anyway. BTW, it's Apple's fault that X11 sucks on OSX, while X11 on Linux offers speed and eyecandy that rivals Quartz these days! Maybe Apple should just throw Quartz and CoreImage away and switch to xorg or Xgl now... :)
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Willie Sippel said:
For games, it doesn't matter if they run via X11 or Quartz, it' fullscreen OpenGL anyway. BTW, it's Apple's fault that X11 sucks on OSX, while X11 on Linux offers speed and eyecandy that rivals Quartz these days! Maybe Apple should just throw Quartz and CoreImage away and switch to xorg or Xgl now... :)
I don't think X11 sucks in that sense. What I meant was that it isn't fully integrated into the OS X world...little things like using the same keyboard shortcuts and being able to drag and drop effectively...

And I don't really play games on my computer, although I see how for what you want, the requirements are a lot different than for what I want!
 

Spock

macrumors 68000
Jan 6, 2002
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You guys need to read the news on this thing the front page clearly states Windows WILL run on the Intel Macs making emulators a waste of time when talking about games. It will be like dual booting Win and Linux. GRUB or LILO Apple?
 

stcanard

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Oct 19, 2003
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Willie Sippel said:
PS: If Apple forks Wine and pulls a stunt similar to the KHTML thing, they won't have any more friends in the Linux open source camp, so I hope they won't even touch it (at least not in a similar fashion - if they want to pay some Wine devs or make a deal with Codeweavers, that would be OK I think).
Remember that whole KHTML thing was grossly mis-reported by Slashdot (big surprise there).

Apple did exactly what they were supposed to do, the problem is webcore has deviated so far from KHTML that backporting was not easy. Apple in no way screwed them.
 

stcanard

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Oct 19, 2003
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Spock said:
You guys need to read the news on this thing the front page clearly states Windows WILL run on the Intel Macs making emulators a waste of time when talking about games. It will be like dual booting Win and Linux. GRUB or LILO Apple?
This is completely different. Linux systems can dual boot to, but why do things like Wine and VMWare exist?

I _hate_ dual booting. Why do I need to spend 5 minutes waiting for Windows to start up, lose access to all my apps, just to run a bloody program.

That's why wine is so nice; it allows me to run those occasional things within my own environment, without ever having to see a horrid start menu.
 

swheeler

macrumors member
May 30, 2005
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0
The downside to full compatability still remains that if a Mac can run Windows software, why would anyone Mac software? If this works, it won't be long before the only Mac-optimized apps left are made by Apple. IMO, this is a bad long term idea unless they do it perfectly, so you can't tell the difference between Windows and Mac program performance.
 

sPAULj

macrumors member
Jun 12, 2004
36
0
savar said:
What I wonder is will Apple take WINE under its wing? If Apple throws some developers out there it would make WINE even more thorough/optimized and in return Apple could include a Windows compatibility layer in OS X! That would truly be amazing.
No no no. If people can continue coding Windows and be compatible on a Mac they will only continue writing for Windows, and people will have no attachment to the OS. No, I think Apple will open cocoa to windows developers because they know how enjoyable coding for it can be.

Exciting times :) It's kind of like what Steve tried to do with NeXT, but with the critical mass of the current Apple.
 

Willie Sippel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
18
0
stcanard,

I know the issue was blown up by mainstream media, I follow the KDE project very closely (as a member of kde-artist). But one problem remains, even with Apple playing nice now: KHTML and WebCore will never be fully compatible again, but Apple kept KHTML's identifier string AFAIK, and that's not OK. If it were a joint development from the start, no problem - but they should have used a different identifier...

And I'm afraid that, if Apple would indeed fork Wine, history would repeat itself. And Alexandre, the Wine maintainer, really has a no-compromises approach handling patches - so pretty much nothing would ever be merged back. And that would mean: different compatibility on OSX and Linux, not what Wine was supposed to achieve...
 

Willie Sippel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
18
0
mkrishnan,

I know that the integration is the problem. That's why I suggested to dump Quartz and use X11 for everything... And I'm not into gaming, too, but that's what most people will be interested in when Wine gets ported to OSX.
 

savar

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2003
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0
District of Columbia
Spock said:
You guys need to read the news on this thing the front page clearly states Windows WILL run on the Intel Macs making emulators a waste of time when talking about games. It will be like dual booting Win and Linux. GRUB or LILO Apple?
1) WINE is not an emulator.

2) I don't want to restart to launch a windows app.

3) I want to run Windows apps and Mac apps side by side.

4) I don't want to pay for a Windows license just to run a handful of apps.

Wine for OS X/x86 is an amazing idea.
 

GFLPraxis

macrumors 604
Mar 17, 2004
7,091
404
DavidLeblond said:
I know this has been brought up in other threads, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread. WINE has grown by leaps and bounds on Linux to go so far as to allow some Windows games to be played on Linux.

The reason why WINE doesn't work with the Mac is because WINE Is Not an Emulator. But if Apple switches to Intel, it won't necessarily HAVE to be an emulator. So... does anyone think we'll be using Windows software on Macs in a few years? It certainly would be a boon to Apple. What was Gates's snide comment? "How do you tell if you're on a Mac or Windows? Put your application on it and see if it runs?" Indeed.

Of course, are there hackers out there writing a Cocoa API for Windows...?

WINE already works on Mac.

It's called DarWINE. The current version of the app is just standard WINE- it can run Windows apps but only if they've been recompiled for PowerPC (so basicly no normal Windows apps, there are some recompiled versions of Notepad, Minesweeper, and a few others available though). The final version is supposed to add an x86 emulator to WINE so it can run Windows apps, but it looks like that won't be necessary.


I expect WINE to be up and running on Intel Macs within the first month.


This is what WINE looks like on a Mac (running a recompiled version of Notepad), in X11:



This is what it's projected to look like with some work on the GUI:

 

Spock

macrumors 68000
Jan 6, 2002
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stcanard said:
This is completely different. Linux systems can dual boot to, but why do things like Wine and VMWare exist?

I _hate_ dual booting. Why do I need to spend 5 minutes waiting for Windows to start up, lose access to all my apps, just to run a bloody program.

That's why wine is so nice; it allows me to run those occasional things within my own environment, without ever having to see a horrid start menu.
You people need to learn how to Read...

spock said:
making emulators a waste of time when talking about games
 

Willie Sippel

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
18
0
Spock,

sorry, you don't get it. Not only is Wine not an emulator, it's also not a waste of time, not even for games, for at least three obvious reasons:

1.) You don't need a copy of Windows to play games via Wine, so you don't have to support Microsoft by improving their OS sales.

2.) Dual-booting takes much more time and is really inconvenient compared to simply install and run a game on your OS of choice (OSX, Linux, *BSD, Solaris - wherever Wine works).

3.) Using Wine, you don't really have to think about viri (because Wine runs in some kind of sandbox), and most definitely not dialers or worms.
 

admanimal

macrumors 68040
Apr 22, 2005
3,530
2
OK so who wants to take one look at those screenshots and tell me why Apple will never produce or support anything WINE-like themselves?

As if Windows apps weren't ugly enough running inside Windows, they look even worse running with lovely OS X in the background.
 

Spock

macrumors 68000
Jan 6, 2002
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Vulcan
Willie Sippel said:
Spock,

sorry, you don't get it. Not only is Wine not an emulator, it's also not a waste of time, not even for games, for at least three obvious reasons:

1.) You don't need a copy of Windows to play games via Wine, so you don't have to support Microsoft by improving their OS sales.

2.) Dual-booting takes much more time and is really inconvenient compared to simply install and run a game on your OS of choice (OSX, Linux, *BSD, Solaris - wherever Wine works).

3.) Using Wine, you don't really have to think about viri (because Wine runs in some kind of sandbox), and most definitely not dialers or worms.


I do get it.

1.) Windows Sucks.

2.) Wine Sucks You cant even open an .exe

3.) Darwine must be ran under X11 and X11 Sucks

If You read the FAQ it pretty much tells You Darwine is pretty useless unless I want to play a game of Minesweep or type a note in notepad You cant even play solitare.

Darwine FAQ said:
What is the targeted audience?


Currently the targeted audience is Developers or Hackers. Users are discouraged from running Darwine because it is still undergoing improvements on Mac OS X, and there is still much to do.
Looks to me like at this point it is a waste of time it has taken them this long to get it to run on PowerPC how long will it take to redo it to run on Intel based Macs?
 

pizzach

macrumors member
Mar 1, 2005
98
0
Canada
Your answer just had shown how little you did get. :rolleyes: It would take LESS time. NOT more. You have no idea how yung the darwine project is compared to the wine project, do you?


Spock said:
I do get it.

1.) Windows Sucks.

2.) Wine Sucks You cant even open an .exe

3.) Darwine must be ran under X11 and X11 Sucks

If You read the FAQ it pretty much tells You Darwine is pretty useless unless I want to play a game of Minesweep or type a note in notepad You cant even play solitare.



Looks to me like at this point it is a waste of time it has taken them this long to get it to run on PowerPC how long will it take to redo it to run on Intel based Macs?
 

Spock

macrumors 68000
Jan 6, 2002
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pizzach said:
Your answer just had shown how little you did get. :rolleyes: It would take LESS time. NOT more. You have no idea how yung the darwine project is compared to the wine project, do you?
ou mad

Well to be honest I was just having fun getting You geeks all mad and stuff to be honest I really dont care about Darwine or Wine I can afford to buy Windows. a nice KVM and a PC work better then wine or Darwine ever will. And you guys are right I dont know anything about Darwine and I dont care too know. Push a button Windows push a button Mac OS that simple. Sorry if I made you guys mad.