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Intel Announces 8th-Generation Whiskey Lake and Amber Lake Processors Suitable for MacBook and MacBook Air
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I know what you mean. I think that Apple have given up on intel tbh.
I look forward to regular events where in October and March we get annual upgrades of all Macs - using A class ARM chips. Whether we all agree with this or not, that’s where they are headed to (though the Pro machines may be quite far off).
I think we’re still at a transition point between dual and quad core. Before July, all you could get at 13” was dual core; just because quads can now be had for $1800+ (and hexacore at $2400+) doesn’t mean a $1,000 machine has to be quad-core, especially if the quad is just a $200 option. There are always compromises at the entry level price, just look at the difference between the $1099 iMac and the step above—a better display/dGPU and dual—>quad upgrade.
re: lack of updates to Mac, the models that sell the most—MBP and iMac—are updated every year almost without exception (iMac in 2016) over the past 12 years. MacBook Air sells at a price point (like iPhone SE) and will never get yearly updates. Same with most low volume products like Mac mini and Mac Pro, though both of those products need updates (and Mac Pro was subjected to very poor product management, resulting in a long-overdue update).
Like you and others I enjoy speculating about Apple’s future updates, and it’ll be interesting to see how they resolve the Air situation, specifically the screen problem. That’s the glaring(!) issue that needs fixing, and obviously there will be a processor update as well. Ports and keyboard are also of interest; USB 3.1 and butterfly are my guess.
btw I think they’ll keep the iconic name—even though it disturbs some that the 12” Macbook is lighter—but who really knows except Apple?
Why would you even say something like that? It's right in the freaking press release linked at the top of this story! Literally the fourth and fifth words are linked to it! Get with the program.
Side note: I'm so sick and tired of being called out repeatedly on these forums just because I read the freakin links and comment on the freakin story and everyone else wants to appear to be super clever and make up their own facts. Sorry if I'm blowing up right now but this has been happening a lot lately and I'm sick and freakin tired of it. Thank God these forums have ignore functionality or I would lose my mind.
That has always been Dell's modus operandi. For years and years, Dell synced up its release schedule with Intel's and in some cases you could actually purchase the product and it was ready to be shipped that day, as long as you chose one of their default builds and did not customize anything. If you did, all bets were off.
I do believe Dell announced 6-core H-Series laptops along with the Intel announcement, but upon checking the shipping dates, it was a good 45-60 days out before you were going to receive the laptop. As opposed to Apple, who held off announcing anything at WWDC (which would have been primetime for them) and when they did release the 2018 MacBook Pros, people were walking into the Apple Store the next day, buying them and posting benchmarks the next day. I even checked the Dell site the day the 2018 MacBook Pros were announced (7/12/18) and they had pushed out delivery dates to the end of July (26th-28th).
My point? Dell, HP and many other OEMs are dependent on these announcements to piggy back on Intel's PR in order to prime the pump for sales, especially as we head into the holiday season. Echoing bluecoast's sentiment, I think Apple has given up on Intel.
An evolving article some benchmarks/predictions of the Whiskey Lake Chips - non mac specific performance all ballpark:
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/22017-intel-i3-8145u-benchmarks/
i3-8145U - Geekbench 4.1.1 – Multi Core 7776 – Single Core 4092
Wouldn't surprise me if the i5 and i7 hit 10,000, which for an 'Air' type machine would be excellent in the 1200 price range, especially if paired with an eGPU (Based on a Thunderbolt 3 port being a thing on the new machines).
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/22017-intel-i3-8145u-benchmarks/
i3-8145U - Geekbench 4.1.1 – Multi Core 7776 – Single Core 4092
Wouldn't surprise me if the i5 and i7 hit 10,000, which for an 'Air' type machine would be excellent in the 1200 price range, especially if paired with an eGPU (Based on a Thunderbolt 3 port being a thing on the new machines).
The target market for the rMB doesn’t require TB3, though gen 1—> gen 2 upgrade looks likely since the chipset supports it.
Sure TB3 would be nice, and when Intel integrates it on die (or on package) Apple would probably follow suit, so 2020 I suppose. But the Alpine Ridge controller is a 2W part and Apple doesn’t want to deal with the heat, even if there were room for it.
I would have to disagree with you, because if Apple actually introduces an updated MacBook Air (let's call it that for lack of a confirmed name) and they have decided that it is (finally) time put a Retina display in the Air, to me that signifies a big change in thinking on their part, which I think carries over to the CPU as well. The other pieces (ports, keyboard, design, size of screen) are all important, but consequential as there is already precedent in the MacBook Pros from 2016 onward and the prior MBA. Pricing is the sticky wicket in this equation. Profit rules, marketshare is not being fought over in this space, so is the mindshare worth less gross margin? Seven years of Tim Cook as CEO would point to a big, fat NO, but I digress.
On the Windows side, users have had quad-core 15w Core i5 and i7 CPUs available to them for just over a year. Quad-core CPUs at the same price point as dual-core is now the norm in that world. This is reinforced by the fact that Intel has exactly one dual-core i5 and i7 in their 8th Generation lineup and those are the Y-Series that just got introduced a few days ago. I just cannot see a 13" MacBook Air with a Y-Series CPU, I cannot see putting in a 7th-Gen Kaby Lake (PR $#!tshow) and I cannot see a Core i3-8145U instead as the Core i5-8265U RCP is only $16.00 more ($281.00 versus $297.00). I know Apple doesn't pay those prices, but the delta in pricing between the i3 and the i5 is tiny.
I believe the $1099 21.5" iMac exists only to sell into the education market at this point, since the Mac mini requires a KB, mouse and display, it is messy and it is 4 years old versus the iMac, which provides decent power (better than the prior 1.4GHz version and the current mini) at a decent price (esp. in bulk) and one cable (power cord). I do not think it should be used as an analogue to the MacBook Air versus MacBook Pro pricing, but that is my opinion.
Remember, once upon a time, the MacBook Air was THE best-selling computer Apple made (2010 up until 2015) and it received updates annually from 2008 to 2015. When Apple stopped updating it in 2015, that solidified my opinion that the 12" MacBook was there to replace the Air. But it didn't...I am sure it sells, but it just is not an Air, the Air. People are weird that way and I think Apple misjudged what the response would be in this case. The fact that they still sell a 2017 MacBook Air that was tweaked in the most infinitesimal way possible leads me to that conclusion.
Had Apple not introduced the 12" MacBook, I do not believe we would even be having this conversation. Instead we would be waiting for the Late 2018 MacBook Air to be introduced during a keynote in which Apple would be touting that "the MacBook Air continues to be our best selling computer, but now it is time to replace the 2017 Macbook Air with the "best" MacBook Air Apple has ever made (duh!). Well, we had to decide what to do for an encore after we added that gorgeous Retina display to the Air in 2016...and we turned our thoughts inward and decided it was time to give the little laptop that could a bigger engine, a bigger display and an updated design. So, we've put together a little movie we would like to show you." Cue Jony Ive!
I think they will keep the MacBook Air name as well. I know Macs are now a very small share of Apple's profits, but there is no reason marketshare, sales and profits cannot all go up with just a bit of time and attention on Apple's part. I love the iPad, but I cannot do my job with it. Students and everyday users want a smaller, lightweight, affordable laptop. Aspiring developers with tight wallets (or no wallets, but a supportive parent) and an idea need something more affordable than a 13" MacBook Pro and until Xcode come to the iPad, they need a Mac that embodies certain attributes...that is the MacBook Air.
But, hey, First World Problems!
Absolutely. Most people will not need TB3 at all.
In fact I think the new MBA will be aimed at the sort of people that the 6.1 LCD iPhone will be aimed at aka ‘most people.
So I suspect that these ‘most people’ will be using the usb-c ports for charging and charging their new usb-c compatible iphone.
Here is a link to results for the Core i3-8145U at the Geekbench Browser site, there is no official benchmark yet, so take the numbers with a grain of salt as the results show that they were benchmarked using the TDP-up frequency of 2.3GHz, not the base 2.1GHz - source here.
The Core i5-8250U currently runs MC - 11063 and SC - 3633
The Core i7-8550U currently runs MC - 13015 and SC - 4235 according to the Geekbench Benchmarks here.
If I do a search for these CPUs on the Geekbench site, I see the 8250U and 8550U routinely benchmarking for quite a bit more than the official numbers listed in the Benchmark charts. I would not expect more than a 5% increase for the Whiskey Lake versions.
Good times ahead, fingers crossed.
The MBA will have a crappy pentium gold processor, 4GB Ram and 128GB SSD for $899. They have to maintain that profit margin you know... added advantage, when they will update it in 2 years with their own chips, they will be able to claim faster performance.
Interestingly enough, the "I refuse to purchase a USB-C to whatever cable I need for $7.99 and be done with it, because I should not have to do that" brigade has been strangely silent on this thread - Beetlejuice!
Native USB-C 3.1 Gen 2 in the PCH is a huge win to me...and for most people 2 of those would be enough. The redesigned MacBook Air (2010) did not get Thunderbolt until the mid 2011 model. Perhaps Apple will use the same evolution and once it is on die it will be introduced. I am sure it will make it there, eventually.
EDIT: I spoke too soon.
In Apple’s mind, the nTB was the Retina MBA, not the 12” rMB, they said so. That’s one of the reasons I think a new 13” model replaces both MBA and nTB. (Like you, I don’t think it’ll be a 13” Y-series ultraportable.)I would have to disagree with you, because if Apple actually introduces an updated MacBook Air (let's call it that for lack of a confirmed name) and they have decided that it is (finally) time put a Retina display in the Air, to me that signifies a big change in thinking on their part, which I think carries over to the CPU as well. The other pieces (ports, keyboard, design, size of screen) are all important, but consequential as there is already precedent in the MacBook Pros from 2016 onward and the prior MBA. Pricing is the sticky wicket in this equation. Profit rules, marketshare is not being fought over in this space, so is the mindshare worth less gross margin? Seven years of Tim Cook as CEO would point to a big, fat NO, but I digress.
On the Windows side, users have had quad-core 15w Core i5 and i7 CPUs available to them for just over a year. Quad-core CPUs at the same price point as dual-core is now the norm in that world. This is reinforced by the fact that Intel has exactly one dual-core i5 and i7 in their 8th Generation lineup and those are the Y-Series that just got introduced a few days ago. I just cannot see a 13" MacBook Air with a Y-Series CPU, I cannot see putting in a 7th-Gen Kaby Lake (PR $#!tshow) and I cannot see a Core i3-8145U instead as the Core i5-8265U RCP is only $16.00 more ($281.00 versus $297.00). I know Apple doesn't pay those prices, but the delta in pricing between the i3 and the i5 is tiny.
I believe the $1099 21.5" iMac exists only to sell into the education market at this point, since the Mac mini requires a KB, mouse and display, it is messy and it is 4 years old versus the iMac, which provides decent power (better than the prior 1.4GHz version and the current mini) at a decent price (esp. in bulk) and one cable (power cord). I do not think it should be used as an analogue to the MacBook Air versus MacBook Pro pricing, but that is my opinion.
Remember, once upon a time, the MacBook Air was THE best-selling computer Apple made (2010 up until 2015) and it received updates annually from 2008 to 2015. When Apple stopped updating it in 2015, that solidified my opinion that the 12" MacBook was there to replace the Air. But it didn't...I am sure it sells, but it just is not an Air, the Air. People are weird that way and I think Apple misjudged what the response would be in this case. The fact that they still sell a 2017 MacBook Air that was tweaked in the most infinitesimal way possible leads me to that conclusion.
Had Apple not introduced the 12" MacBook, I do not believe we would even be having this conversation. Instead we would be waiting for the Late 2018 MacBook Air to be introduced during a keynote in which Apple would be touting that "the MacBook Air continues to be our best selling computer, but now it is time to replace the 2017 Macbook Air with the "best" MacBook Air Apple has ever made (duh!). Well, we had to decide what to do for an encore after we added that gorgeous Retina display to the Air in 2016...and we turned our thoughts inward and decided it was time to give the little laptop that could a bigger engine, a bigger display and an updated design. So, we've put together a little movie we would like to show you." Cue Jony Ive!
I think they will keep the MacBook Air name as well. I know Macs are now a very small share of Apple's profits, but there is no reason marketshare, sales and profits cannot all go up with just a bit of time and attention on Apple's part. I love the iPad, but I cannot do my job with it. Students and everyday users want a smaller, lightweight, affordable laptop. Aspiring developers with tight wallets (or no wallets, but a supportive parent) and an idea need something more affordable than a 13" MacBook Pro and until Xcode come to the iPad, they need a Mac that embodies certain attributes...that is the MacBook Air.
But, hey, First World Problems!
re: dual/quad CPU price delta, it’s not about cost it’s about ASP for the new 13” model as a whole. A $999 quad would kill ASP. For what most people use an Air for, there’s just no way quad-core is a necessity. If you need it, buy it. It’s a $200 option. But for students or even beginning developers, quad-core isn’t a minimum requirement. And Apple might even bring it out at $899. But it wouldn’t be Retina, and it wouldn’t be quad-core. That machine is $1,799.
You could be right, but I remain highly skeptical of a 13” Retina quad-core at $999 when we already have a 13” Retina quad-core at $1,799. Even if they capped the config at 8GB RAM and 128GB I still don’t think we get a Retina quad for $999, but I’d surely buy it day one. Of course I’d also be willing to pay $1,299—and that’s pretty much my point.
PS Don’t get hung up on the i3 designation; it’s 2.7GHz compared to the current mini’s 1.8 or +$150 2.2, though similar performance. I always approach these update speculations from the POV of what I think Apple would do given its business requirements. Nobody wants a Retina quad for $999 (or an 8/256 mini for $499!) more than I. It’s just not what I’m expecting. But I’d love to be surprised.
PPS As Smeaton1724 mentions above the i3-8145U would be the dual core, not the i3-7130U. I was still thinking about the earlier rumor that said Apple was going to be using Kaby Lake R parts. But I don’t think there’s any question that they will be using Whiskey Lake assuming it’s a 15W model they’re introducing.
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You pragmatically can't put all TB on die. The switching aspect of Thunderbolt has to physically be within an inch or two of the actual physical ports (that is largely basically physics unless want to kill Thunderbolts low latency switching) .
2W placed near the port/edge is far away from the CPU package in the middle. 2W wouldn't be a problem if sitting close to the bottom case. It is a problem if sitting on top of a battery. Volume is really the core issue not TDP Wattage. As long as Apple wants to saddle the MB with a single port and cripple the volume they have a limited utility corner they have designed themselves into.
Apple tried on USB port on the original MBA ( this Macbook is playing the same role with a different. the two products at this point have swapped names. MBA -- entry level price , MB -- ultimate lightness at price premium. ) Even if they magically stuck an A series in there and turned it into a Laptop-iPad hybrid it wold assume the iPad single port limitations.
It’s a little misleading to compare the original MBA. It also has a separate power port, a headphone jack, and a display port (mini-DVI).
That’s quite unlike an iPad or the 12-inch MacBook, which only have one port for power, data, and display.
That’s quite unlike an iPad or the 12-inch MacBook, which only have one port for power, data, and display.
if Apple 'guts' the nTB MBP to create the MBA replacement then the MBP variant may stay. Apple can go "Retina" without using a P3 color backlighting system. Same thing with making the glass lamination 'thinnest'. They could fall back to the original 13" Retina screens ( perhaps a different ( thicker, cheaper ) lid than the MBP variant ). They could also skip the T2 (just use the now even older (and R&D paid for) SSD blade in the nTB MBP 13" ). There are corners they can cut ( similar usage of 'old' components from previous Mac laptops.).
At one point Apple has MBP 13" models with glossy and matte screens. The matte screens were more. Apple could do a lid difference where the cheaper screen has "Mac Book Air" below the screen and the other has "Mac Book Pro" below the screen.
the processor isn't the whole value package or the only buy value proposition. MBP's get T2 / Fingerprint and the "entry stuff" doesn't for 2-3 years would work as a differentiation point. Very similar to how the "touch bar" is a value prop up from the mainstream MBP model.
It isn't just purely just cores that people are buying. The touch bar 1,799 model has iris Pro graphics ( 655 ) and these Whiskey options decidedly don't. That touch bar screen isn't "free". Sure folks would put absolutely zero value on the touch bar screen may solely focus on core count. However, those folks who are completely transfixed by core count will won't buy an "touch bar' machine if make that their only option. ( Some will bolt for Windows. Others will simply just not buy anything and rant away on every forum they can get to. )
Much of the angst here is because Apple has the MBA and MB names swapped backwards from their historical assignments. Switch them back and let the Macbook take entry pricing design queues and seperating from the MBP won't be any where near an issue it is now. The Marketing labels are screwed up. That's why folks go round-and-round on "but have 3 overlapping 13" laptops" .... get the names right and assign associated properties to the design and they aren't all that overlapping at all other than simply physical size.
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it is the essentially the same experiment done with technology available 7 years after the first one. "Toss as many ports as you think you can get away with" and 'sacrifice much to get to thin/light goals". Put a high premium on these so can make money at lower volumes. There were no Type-C options when they did the first experiment in 2008. There are now.
that's why is it is so "muddled" on the naming. They killed the Macbook and moving the MBA into that role (out of the original one). They used the "premium" branding they had built up around the MBA to put a floor underneath the entry level pricing. ( luxury premium and entry level prices ... what a bargain buy real fast. All the while really maturing/mature tech. The MBA 11" was smaller to be cheaper, not push some premium envelope forward. ).
But then when came time to repeat the experiment they have used the MBA name for that short term gain. So clumsily brought back the "Macbook" in the old MBA role. The experiment is not 100% the same because the tech isn't 100% the same. They didn't put a HDD in the new Macbook ( in MBA role either). Technology advances meant they didn't even have to consider that option.
She was amongst 4 others sitting down I saw 1 person walking behind her 3-4 rows above.
When Intel talks about having “Thunderbolt 3 integrated into the CPU” it’s not clear to me whether they mean on die or on package, they haven’t said much. But I’m not sure it really matters ultimately.
re: thermals, with the case acting as a passively-cooled heatsink I’m not sure Apple could just dump another 2+ Watts there without affecting anything, but I suppose maybe it wouldn’t be a problem. It would certainly affect battery life, especially to the extent it’s supplying downstream power.
Apple chose not to add TB3 to the MacBook and then designed around that spec. They didn’t start out with a limit to the volume and only later discover they couldn’t have TB3 because of some kind of “corner they have designed themselves into”. When/if they decide to add TB3, they’ll make any necessary design changes I should think.
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One problem of USB-C is that its nature creates issues with plain USB-C hubs, ie, hubs that turn one USB-C port into multiple USB-C ports. Branching out the extras of USB-C (alternate modes, bi-direction power supply incl. relatively high power levels for laptop charging) is difficult to impossible for some of them. There is a reason the more advanced/versatile protocols like Firewire and in particular Thunderbolt don't have the concept of hubs that multiply the same type of port. Instead they use the concept of daisy-chaining.
And while daisy-chaining works great for sets of peripherals that usually are connected almost all the time or are mainly connected as a set, there are peripherals that connected only for limited amount of times (at least with FW, daisy-chaining also suffers from unevenness of whether the downstream port of a FW device supplies power). Which is why TB docks as well as USB-C docks normally have multiple USB-A ports.
While sometimes powered USB-A hubs (as well as USB-A ports on computers) are mainly used to charge various devices (phones, tablets, watches, headphones, cameras, power banks, etc.) via USB instead of providing a data connection between the device and a computer, the need to have a non-trivial number of (powered) USB ports is definitely there and USB-C still cannot really fulfil this need.
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Intel has incredible engineering talent, that’s a fact, and they have refined 14nm quite a bit after having some initial issues that seemed a bit insurmountable at the time. However, my gut keeps giving me an uneasy feeling about 10nm. In their favor, they do have one Cannon Lake CPU shipping (Core i3-8121U) and it appears that it is going into actual products, so that’s a positive thing, but it is far from shipping in volume. Bottom line, Intel is in a pickle and future CPUs beyond Cannon Lake are hard to conceive of at this point. If they solve the 10nm issues, and are shipping in volume, then I think it’s time for them to talk about Ice Lake and their upcoming roadmap. I wish Intel would stop discussing future CPUs and just concentrate on the problem at hand. Perhaps those two are mutually exclusive, but nothing else matters until 10nm is solid and shipping. Just my 2c. Ice Lake 2022 FTW.
The iPad Pro lineup actually has a second port for data and power, the smart connector. While limited in use, it supplies a data and power connection to a keyboard but can also in reverse supply power to the iPad (albeit at a reduced rate).
