Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
true, but not the whole picture

ehurtley said:
(i.e. 32-bit code on the 64-bit platform runs slower than 64-bit code on the 64-bit platform, even if the core app doesn't really NEED to be 64-bit.)
That's true, but 32-bit code on the 64-bit platform runs faster than 32-bit code on the 32-bit platform !!

In order of increasing speed:
  1. 32-bit app, 32-bit OS, 32-bit chip (today, Yonah)
  2. 32-bit app/OS, 64-bit chip (June Woodcrest, August Merom - Merom in 32-bit 25% faster than Yonah)
  3. 32-bit app, 64-bit OS/chip (XP in June/August, wait for WWDC for news about true 64-bit OSx64)
  4. 64-bit app/OS/chip (the future, but few apps today for Windows, none for OSx64)
The problem for the current Yonah MacIntels, is that #1 is the only option. Stuck at 32-bit only.

When Apple drops Yonah and puts Merom in the MacIntels, they'll start at #2, and can move to #3 and #4 in the future.

(The #3 is minor for most apps, and comes from the fact that even though application code and libraries are running 32-bit, calls to the operating system support APIs are 64-bit. If you do a lot of I/O or memory calls, the 64-bit OS can help your 32-bit application. This is how Windows x64 does it, the OSx64 implementation is unknown)
 
Multimedia said:
So you are saying that Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom 64-bit processors will run all the existing 32-bit software slower than the Yonah 32-bit Macs will? What a revolting development???!!!???!?!?! :eek: :eek: :eek:

No, not by any means. They are still newer/better architectures, and should run 32-bit code at least equally fast at the same clock speed. My point is that it won't be MUCH of an improvement at the same clock speed. The big speed increases will be from clock speed improvements and moving to 64-bit. (x86's 64-bit mode adds more than just 64-bit data and more memory, it also adds more registers; making it up to 10% faster to run 64-bit code on a 64-bit OS than running 32-bit code on a 32-bit OS; even if the code itself has no 'logical' reason to be 64-bit.)

Again, Merom at 2.16 GHz should be marginally faster than Yonah at 2.16 GHz when run on a 32-bit OS. But when run on a 64-bit OS and 64-bit code, a 2.16 GHz Merom could be up to 10-15% faster than a 2.16 GHz Yonah. (Plus Merom should be available in faster clock speeds, and it will add SSE4, which could improve some multimedia code.)
 
Rower_CPU said:
Interesting that Dell is putting the Core 2 Duo in their high-end gaming machine. I don't think Apple will do this with the PowerMac replacement - the Conroe seems like a better choice for a powerhouse desktop.

Conroe *IS* Core 2 Duo. Both the desktop and laptop chips (Conroe and Merom) will go by the name Core 2. Core 2 Solo (not yet announced, but likely,) will likely be the low-end chip, both mobile and desktop (most likely the Celeron name will be retired,) Core 2 Duo will be the 'mainstream' laptop and desktop chip, and Core 2 Extreme will be the high-end desktop chip (equivalent of Pentium Extreme Edition.)
 
ehurtley said:
Conroe *IS* Core 2 Duo. Both the desktop and laptop chips (Conroe and Merom) will go by the name Core 2. Core 2 Solo (not yet announced, but likely,) will likely be the low-end chip, both mobile and desktop (most likely the Celeron name will be retired,) Core 2 Duo will be the 'mainstream' laptop and desktop chip, and Core 2 Extreme will be the high-end desktop chip (equivalent of Pentium Extreme Edition.)

Thanks for the clarification - I assumed Core 2 Duo were Merom chips only.

If the Conroe/Core 2 Duo chips are starting to become available I'm hoping to see a pro desktop announcement soon. :)
 
Woodcrest Quad MacIntel - Core 2 Duo x 2 - By July or WWDC Worst Case

Rower_CPU said:
Thanks for the clarification - I assumed Core 2 Duo were Merom chips only.

If the Conroe/Core 2 Duo chips are starting to become available I'm hoping to see a pro desktop announcement soon. :)
Woodcrest Quad - Core 2 Duo x 2 - should happen no later than July or WWDC August 7 SteveNote worst case. :)
 
Multimedia said:
Woodcrest Quad - Core 2 Duo x 2 - should happen no later than July or WWDC August 7 SteveNote worst case. :)

Woodcrest is Xeon 5100 series and will not use core 2 duo brand. That's only for desktop and laptop (consumer segment) series.

Hopefully we see Macpro with woodcrest asap. HP is releasing woodcrest based workstations early next month (in another 3 weeks) and I am sure Dell would release precision workstation with woodcrest in the same timeframe.
 
Does anyone else find all these different 'crap' names for chips a little confusing?

I mean conroe, merom and woodcrest as well as Core solo/Duo or Core 2 solo/Duo WTF :confused:

I think most people who are looking at buying a mac in the future are going to have to do quite a bit of research to make sure they get what they need/want.

The G series was easy, just stick a number on the end and guess what...? it was sequential! All you had to worry about was CPU speed.

Now you need to know how many cores it has, whether core 2 duo is really 2 cores or 4 and whether woodcrap or ****flap are actually faster than moron.

***** marketing = confused customers = low sales
 
stuartluff said:
Does anyone else find all these different 'crap' names for chips a little confusing?

I mean conroe, merom and woodcrest as well as Core solo/Duo or Core 2 solo/Duo WTF :confused:
Not really.

We currently have "Core" chips. This summer we'll have "Core 2" chips. "Core 2" is faster and better than "Core".

I think that the unwashed masses won't have any trouble figuring out that "2" is the one to buy.

They won't know that there were different engineering code names for the mobile and desktop versions of "Core 2". Only geeks will see those.
 
AidenShaw said:
Not really.

We currently have "Core" chips. This summer we'll have "Core 2" chips. "Core 2" is faster and better than "Core".

I think that the unwashed masses won't have any trouble figuring out that "2" is the one to buy.

They won't know that there were different engineering code names for the mobile and desktop versions of "Core 2". Only geeks will see those.

Oh i see, its an evolution, I thought they would be produced at the same time. Well that does make sense. :eek:
 
Woodcrest Will Be High End Core 2 Duo

shawmanus said:
Woodcrest is Xeon 5100 series and will not use core 2 duo brand. That's only for desktop and laptop (consumer segment) series.

Hopefully we see Macpro with woodcrest asap. HP is releasing woodcrest based workstations early next month (in another 3 weeks) and I am sure Dell would release precision workstation with woodcrest in the same timeframe.
No that is not my understanding. Woodcrest is the beginning of Core 2 Duo - the highest end gets produced first in June followed by Core 2 Duo Conroe (desktop) production starting in July followed by Core 2 Duo Merom (mobile) production starting in August.

Woodcrest may be a decendant of Xeon 5100 but it might be branded part of the Core 2 Duo family - high end. It's the only one that can be mounted in pairs on motherboards for a total of 4 cores IE the first Mac Intel QUAD. I guess for marketing purposes you may be right and it may retain the old family name of Xeon even though it is really high end Core 2 Duo. :confused:
 
Multimedia said:
No that is not my understanding. Woodcrest is the beginning of Core 2 Duo - the highest end gets produced first in June followed by Core 2 Duo Conroe production starting in July followed by Core 2 Duo Merom prduction starting in August.
True, but the question is what *name* will Intel choose to market Woodcrest as?

The evidence is strong that they'll stick with the strong Xeon brand for workstations and servers - and "Core" for laptops and desktops.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/04/19/intel_to_ship_core_inq3_2006/

"While Woodcrest, which will carry the Xeon 5100-series designation, was always scheduled for a Q3 introduction, chief executive Paul Otellini on Wednesday confirmed that the company will also be announcing the desktop processor "Conroe" (Core Duo E4000 and E6000 series) as well as the mobile CPU "Merom" (Core Duo T5000 and T7000 series) in the third quarter. All three variants will be shipping "in volume."​

Remember that no one had heard of "Core 2" until this current article was posted. The marketing name is chosen for marketing reasons.

Multimedia said:
Woodcrest may be a decendant of Xeon 5100 but it will be branded part of the Core 2 Duo family - high end. It's the only one that can be mounted in pairs on motherboards for a total of 4 cores IE the first Mac Intel QUAD.
Woodcrest is a sibling of Merom/Conroe, therefore descended from Yonah, Dothan and Banias.

No Xeon blood here, except for the Netburst parts of the Core 2 architecture which are also in Merom and Conroe.
 
AidenShaw said:
True, but the question is what *name* will Intel choose to market Woodcrest as?

The evidence is strong that they'll stick with the strong Xeon brand for workstations and servers - and "Core" for laptops and desktops.

Woodcrest is a sibling of Merom/Conroe, therefore descended from Yonah, Dothan and Banias.

No Xeon blood here, except for the Netburst parts of the Core 2 architecture which are also in Merom and Conroe.

It's already pretty well known that Woodcrest will be sold as both 'Xeon' and 'Core 2 Extreme'. The 'Core 2 Extreme' part will likely have dual-socket disabled, but will otherwise be a Xeon clone. (Just as the 'Pentium 4 Extreme Edition' and dual-core 'Pentium Extreme Edition' are Netburst-core Xeons with multiple sockets disabled.)

Woodcrest, Conroe, and Merom are all a hybrid of Yonah/Dothan/Banias and parts of NetBurst.

And 'Xeon' has always been an upgraded version of the mainline desktop part. The original Xeons actually had the name of their desktop equivalent in the name 'Pentium II Xeon' and 'Pentium III Xeon'. Only with the intro of the NetBurst Pentium 4 did Intel drop the 'Pentium x' part of the name to call it just plain Xeon. So when they have a major upgrade of the core, Xeon gets that core, too. So far, there have been three major cores to the Xeon line, Core 2 Xeon will be the fifth. Note that 'Core 2' won't be part of the name, I just put it there for clarification. In the three major cores, there have been 14 revisions (P2/Deschutes, P3/Katmai, P3/Cascades, P3/Cascades MP, P4/Foster, P4/Prestonia, P4/Gallatin, P4/Prescott, P4/Nocona, P4/Irwindale, P4/Cranford, P4/Potomac, P4/Paxville, Core/Sossaman; note that I don't count Multiprocessor separately unless there is more different than just multiprocessing.) Dempsey and Tulsa are scheduled to be the last two P4 based Xeons, but the the early arrival of Core-2-based Woodcrest, I have a feeling Dempsey and Tulsa will be cancelled.

Multimedia said:
I guess for marketing purposes you may be right and it may retain the old family name of Xeon even though it is really high end Core 2 Duo.

Again, Xeon has always been a 'really high end' version of the current desktop chip. It has already had three major architecture changes under the Xeon name.

Stuartluff said:
Now you need to know how many cores it has, whether core 2 duo is really 2 cores or 4 and whether woodcrap or ****flap are actually faster than moron.

Well, 'Core 2 Duo' is just the second generation 'Core' architecture chip (Core 2) with two cores (Duo). If they consider a quad-core version to still be part of the 'Core 2' generation, then it will likely be the 'Core 2 Quad' or similar. A third-generation Core architecture chip with four cores would be 'Core 3 Quad'. So 'Core x' denotes the generation, then Solo, Duo, or Quad denotes the number of cores. (It might make sense for a quad-core to be called 'Quadro', too, but nVidia has that as the name of their high-end professional graphics chip, 'Quadra' might make sense, too, but that one is Apple's old name for high end 68040 machines.)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.