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It's Done

Markoff has been covering Apple for over 15 years. He knows what he's talking about.

Of course, there is a lot missing from the article about the path forward. Most of it is history. So we'll just need to see wha Stevie says tomorrow about emulation, rcompilation, etc...
 
This is more like it:

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Music_Producer said:
A computer goes down in value no matter what, its not real estate you know.

Real estate isn't real estate either; it goes down too.
 
Everybody talking about recompilation...

and a long, arduous transition should stop right now, because these news leaks are mentioning QuickTransit software by Transitive Technologies. It looks like the Mac will remain the same, with an Intel chip inside it instead of a PowerPC - but existing PowerPC Mac software will still run, with virtually no speed hit. What this means is that since Intel chips will be faster, existing PowerPC Mac software will run - FASTER than it does now. The QuickTransit software is what really makes this interesting because it theoretically removes the whole CPU architecture issue from the equation - Apple can now use whatever it likes, wherever it likes. It can use Intel in the PowerBook, and PowerPC in the iBook, and switch to PowerPC in the PowerBook and AMD in the iBook in the future, or whatever it wants to do - and it will all be transparent to the end user. No fat binaries, no extra developer hassle - the Mac is still all-PowerPC on the software side, and will continue to be forever more.

I was shocked and horrified when I first heard the news about switching to Intel, but when I sit back and consider all this, it sounds like a GREAT, AWESOME idea. Now IBM will actually have an incentive to improve its product instead of taking Apple's business for granted. ALL of the CPU companies will be able to actively court Apple and bid for its business because they will ALL be able to supply Apple with chips that will run its software. Apple will have a much wider selection of chips which will allow it to use the best chip for any given job - and the user will be none the wiser. Think about it, when was the last time you stopped and thought about whether it was a Motorola or IBM CPU in your Mac, and did it really make a difference? This will be the same type of situation, only the pool of possible vendors increases by 2.

My only concern is that hackers will figure out a way to get Mac OS X to run on garden variety PCs. Undoubtedly Apple will be concerned about this as well and will make it a royal bitch to do.
 
Abercrombieboy said:
They stopped making 68K Mac software very shortly after the line was switched over to PowerPC.

This is not true. I remember a lot of Fat binary apps. The old LCIII worked well until I bought a PM 5500 (just two months before the imac went out...)
 
Resale values

In regards to people worried about resale values of current macs plummetting:

Firstly they probably will take a hit, but a few of the sites are saying the move is because of the pentium D chip, which has hardware DRM, now im not saying i do anything maliciously illegal, but i would prefer to not have that kind of restriction on my machine..... a little to much "big brother" for my liking. What I am trying to say is that the PPC/nonDRM macs may have some advantages for a while to come. Lets just hope apple supports them with software for several years at least
 
Holy crap, is this true?

"The chips I.B.M. makes for Apple represent less than 2 percent of chip production at its largest factory in East Fishkill, N.Y. And while the microelectronics business as a whole is strategically important for I.B.M., it is a small part of the revenue of a company that increasingly focuses on services and software. A. M. Sacconaghi, an analyst for Sanford C. Bernstein & Company, estimates that the company's technology group - mostly microelectronics - will account for less than 3 percent of I.B.M.'s revenues and 2 percent of its pretax income this year."

I never knew Apple was so...insignificant, to IBM.
 
!

Abercrombieboy said:
I won't leave it, I will find a way to get rid of my old PPC Macs and get a new one even though I will take a loss and I would imagine that most on here will, but the commercial and education market will take a huge hit.

I have never had much luck running PC's and that is why I own a Mac. I know that even a single Pentium 4 will trounce a dual G5 in performance, but in the end all new software and hardware gets expensive.

Who says you have to replace anything? The mac you have today most likely will work on tuesday exactly like it does today. On one hand, everyone says how difficult this transition will be, how long it will take, how many developers wont want to change. On the other, they then say that they will have "useless" equipment in a years time, and will have to replace it immediately?!

Nothing will change about the system you have today. NOT A THING. Will it run OS 10.5? I would practically guarantee it. 10.6? Thats most likely 4-5 years off, and to be honest, I would not care if it does or does not. 4-5 years in the computer world is a LONG time, and I hope you have replaced your machine by then. Yes, I hear it now, "we the proud mac faithful" are used to using our machines for years and years and years and i still use my apple IIe yada yada.

Do you think this would be the case if you had some REAL upgrades? If your machine from 3 years ago was not the same as the one they sell today? One of the reasons macs hang around so long is to be honest, the new ones are not much different. Yay, minor speed bumps. Thats all its been for 10 years, and its about time things changed.

What is the "major" complaint with apple. Crappy OS? Nope. Poorly designed hardware? Nope.

Its the Poor performance from its underwhelming processors. Period. They aim to fix this. I for one am glad.
 
So now I have a question that I think would be interesting to comment on...since we pretty much have 99.95% confimation Apple is switching to Intel...will we see anymore PowerPC speed bumps and improvements until then OR will they hold out with what they have focusing on Intel from here forward?
 
A new day is coming, a new beginning will unfold. Those of you who are distraught by the abandonment of PPC and IBM, your emotions will soon come to pass.

This is a refreshing step for Apple, a step in the right direction, and this move will open up new doors for the Cupertino bunch.

All of you insisting that this news is smoke and mirrors shadowing a "quad-powered" Powermac G5 are clinging by your fingernails for any last hope; I say, ditch the optimism and turn to realism. A month or two ago when Apple updated the PM's from 2.5 to 2.7 Ghz, I remember many of you insisted that there wouldn't be another update come WWDC--the time gap was too short between the two events.

Intel is a fine company and has excellent technology under it's belt. Big Blue is a big fat whale ready to swallow a large school of fish known as the gaming industry. Apple is 193rd on the list of Big Blue's priorities, right after vacumming the elevators and cleaning the windows at corporate headquarters.

Intel will do good things for Apple, and Apple will grow strong moving to x86.

Rejoice! :D
 
Abercrombieboy said:
Agreed many consumers will probably be ok with this. I am just saying as a teacher, people who have to make purchases with the tax payers money won't. A school with 3 computer labs with 20-30 computers each is a lot of money to loose in just one school. The problem with this is a school pays A LOT of money to buy software and they can't buy it over and over. We have switched to mostly Windows computers in the school and with what has happened here, that will be a big savings for us. When Longhorn comes I bet all of our education titles that we have paid thousands for will still run just fine on it. Many say the education market does not matter anymore, but it does, unless Apple has finally conceded defeat in the Education and Small Business areas.

Do you know anything about the education market? they are currently running a large number of G3's at the local schools. They upgrade VERY rarely. When they do, they throw away the old hardware. Yep, right in the dumpster. I have seen legions of G3 AIO's pile up beside the dumpsters. Got a few here that I snagged cuz i couldn't bear to see them go. Your thinking is skewed. If a school was going to buy 50 "Emacs", its going to make little difference one way or another. If you think a school is going to say "oh, apple switched to intel, we have to upgrade all of our labs right away!" you are mistaken. The upgrade will happen on the normal schedule. All the software they have now will work, nothing will change. They will get new software with the new machines when the time comes.

In other words, this means almost nothing to the educational market.
 
iGary said:
Anyone hear if the feed is going to be delayed or live tomorrow?

I need to know when to open the vodka.

Hehe, yeah, the news tom. will decide whether I pull out my rum or my absinthe...

Hope it's a live feed...that would be lovely...but I thought last year it was delayed...so I figured this year, same thing.
 
GregA said:
On the note of preventing OSX from running on "other" x86 machines...

What about Fairplay?
- Apple says their music (AACs) are protected by Fairplay, AND
- Apple are probably trying to convince movie companies
that Fairplay will be protection for their movies too.

If Apple believes in their copy protection system, it's time to demonstrate that. If they make OSX for x86, then how about no special ROM chips to disable other x86s - use Fairplay to make sure each OS is legal and only installed on one machine (or 5 machines for the family pack).

If Apple wants music and movie producers to believe in their technology, they should believe in it themselves.

That's a genuinely foolish thing to say. Apple does believe in fair play, but they want to make sure that it is fair. Apple also has confidence in their customers, something that the Wintel crew can only have wet dreams about. Apple has never, and will not in the foreseeable future use any kind of artificial copy protection. At the moment, Apple's users are the elite of the computer world. Apple customers tend to have better jobs, make more money, and be more educated than the average home PC user. If you think I'm being an insolent ass, look up the demographics. Apple knows that 80-90% of its users will pay for legal ownership of the operating system, where I'd say MS gets maybe 60% of home users. The total number will be higher because of business computers which have nearly 100% penetration of legal OS installs.
Another thing that Apple has that Ms wishes it had is fierce loyalty of users. Apple users enjoy their computers PC users on the general see their computers as a necessary annoyance to get work done. I can get more work done in a shorter period of time on my friends 3 year old iMac than I can on the new dells we have at work. I can't think of anything insanely nifty to end this post with so i'll just say that you shouldn't drink and drive. A drunk guy nearly killed me last night, so I'm a bit hot about it right now. I'm gonna start a new organization: Mac Users Disliking Drunkards r M.U.D.D for short.
 
Abercrombieboy said:
Fair enough...

but this whole thing is not going to go down as rosey as everyone thinks on here...there are going to be a lot of issues along the way. I just hope more then just the "die-hards" like myself and others on here are going to stick around when the road gets a lot of big pot holes in it.

If Apple were to go with a switch to x86, then I would agree. But I think the x86 scenario is a red herring. Apple isn't going to go the x86 route and here's why:

1) Tiger. This year, The WWDC is about three things: Tiger, Tiger, and last but not least - Tiger. If Job's announces anything remotely close to a switch to x86, then regardless of the rollout timetable you're going to have a convention filled with folks who write Mac software for a living contemplating what effect it will have on their business and their customers. In wouldn't matter how Job's spins it. An announcement like that would just snowball the convention, much like the rumor has done here and elsewhere this weekend. TS is reporting the possible release of 10.4.2 next week. Normally, that would be the almost exclusive talk of these boards, but not now. And that example previews a catastrophe for Apple if there is an x86 announcement on Monday.

But as of this weekend, the Tiger booths are all still there, just as if nothing else was happening. There are no perceptible changes at all to the Tiger orgy WWDC agenda. Given the big "news" this weekend, why? Perhaps it's because there is simply no reason to alter the agenda or bring in the Red Cross tents. Jobs may have an announcement regarding Intel, but it won't be x86. Everyone is too quick to associate Intel with x86. Think different.

2) According to cnet's report, the initial recipients of the new Intel "product" will be the Mac mini and other low-end machines. Once again, why? According to most of what's been said on the web and the news reports, Apple isn't as displeased with the performance of the G5 as they are the scalability of it. Job's isn't getting the versions he wants for the form factors he needs, chiefly the powerbook at this point. Apple itself may have realized it hit the wall with the G5 iMac for compressing the G5 in the smallest space possible. Still not small enough (or cool enough) for a laptop, unfortunately. Intel, on the other hand, has shown they have the smarts for getting fast processors into small form factors such as laptops. Too bad they didn't make the G5...

So perhaps cnet misconstrued the interest in the mac mini as Apple's outfitting the "lower-end" macs first. Maybe it's the small form factor that counts. Imagine a G5 class processor in the mac mini... Want one?

3) This story literally caught fire this weekend. The only other indication that Apple was sniffing out Intel (or visa-versa) was the WSJ article of about a month ago, which was widely regarded as far too vague. Other than that, it still looks like Jobs is going to waltz into Moscone Center with his usual rallying speech to the developer masses. Why has everything been kept so quiet. Shock value doesn't win any points at all when a platform change is imminent. Not to mention that amazingly bad timing of such an announcement coinciding with the release of your flagship OS.

The only solution that ties all of this together is Intel has agreed to manufacturer the 970 under a open source license (any maybe technology sharing license) with IBM. Both Apple and IBM have been major proponents of open source. Intel gets what it has said it always wanted, Apple as a customer (and possibly the added bonus of enlarging it's offerings in other areas beyond x86 and it's derivatives). Apple gets what it wants, a smaller G5 at the very least for it's smaller G5-less form factors from a technologist that specializes solely in chip design and manufacturer, and also the likely end of CPU shortage issues in general. And IBM gets what it wanted, Job's off it's back and may remain in the game anyway to the extent it makes some sort of profitable contribution to Apple's ever-innovative designs.

And the rest of us? Developers and users alike? What do we get? Nothing right now, and thats pretty good news after this weekend. Maybe a G5 mac mini and powerbook line up in the near future (once Intel can begin to ramp up enough production - hence the one year or so time frame that was reported). And the Tiger booths will be filled as they normally would have been - no "distractions" or reasons to keep anyone away.

Well, we'll find out tomorrow, won't we...
 
The New York Times is pretty unequivocal about the switch. There are few "if's" in the article. If this turns out to be false, I will be very pleased that the New York Times, CNET, and the Wall Street Journal were wrong. Not to mention our favorite pompous tech pundit, Paul Thurrott. Sorry, I just can't STAND him.

I think that Gruber sums it up best at the end of his latest DaringFireball post -

Here’s my bet: Intel is going to produce PowerPC chips for Apple. But I’m only betting one dollar.

That's basically my idea. Intel has the money and the power to produce these chips... I just don't see Apple switching to x86, whether or not, in the long run, its a good or bad idea.

Have a good night's sleep everyone! Everyone at WWDC, have a great time. Tomorrow's going to be an exciting day.

Calih
 
BillHarrison said:
Do you know anything about the education market? they are currently running a large number of G3's at the local schools. They upgrade VERY rarely. When they do, they throw away the old hardware. Yep, right in the dumpster. I have seen legions of G3 AIO's pile up beside the dumpsters. Got a few here that I snagged cuz i couldn't bear to see them go. Your thinking is skewed. If a school was going to buy 50 "Emacs", its going to make little difference one way or another. If you think a school is going to say "oh, apple switched to intel, we have to upgrade all of our labs right away!" you are mistaken. The upgrade will happen on the normal schedule. All the software they have now will work, nothing will change. They will get new software with the new machines when the time comes.

In other words, this means almost nothing to the educational market.

Yes I know something about the education market since I am a teacher. I teach in a Windows school however, so this announcement does not have any impact on us. What I am trying to say is when it comes time to upgrade hardware there is a lot of software that is not upgraded. If they provide emulation on the Intel however for PowerPC apps, then this is a mute point.
 
CALM DOWN!

You all need to just take a step back and calm down. Don't you realize that IF and thats a huge IF Apple has decided to do this then they have thought over every possibility and every scenario and mapped out how things can or will go in every way they could? Apple isn't stupid, they know it would kill PPC sales to have this looming over them for 2 years.. Apple would never do something that stupid. (If they do though I am selling my stock) :)

With that said this is what I would do if I were Apple and had decided to switch to x86 based chips. This in my mind would make the transition as easy and painless as possible for all my loyal users while at the same time opening my excellent software up to the 90% marketshare I don't currently control.

Jobs announces IMMEDIATE switch to x86 processors starting tomorrow. Nowhere will you be able to ever buy again a new PPC-based Mac. Or if you can they all come with the option of a x86 Quicktransit emulator. All new x86 Macs would contain an option upon purchase from Apple.com or any other retailer of Quicktransit PPC-Emulator being built into the motherboard. Of course most Mac loyalists will choose this by default for at least the next few years. Current owners of Mac's will be given the option for either free or a very small fee to get some kind of software based QuickTransit solution should they want or need it. Over time then, software emulation and hardware emulation can be phased out as everyone slowly upgrades.

This is the ONLY way I see to do this if they truly are going with x86 chips. Any other solution will destroy their sales of hardware for 2+ years or however long it takes for developers to code new software and it would alienate all of Apple's loyal users who have stuck with it for so long.

As far as the other speculation.. why in the hell switch to Intel to have them manufacture PPC chips? Sure you say.. speed.. but IBM knows this chip better than anyone, and even if they aren't that committed they still have a better shot at providing improved performance than some newcomer to the architecture. Plus if Intel could already license the PPC architecture as some have claimed and could improve it better than IBM then why is MS/Sony switching to IBM to manufacture theirs? Its crap. Sorry.

A new chip? Even a bigger load of crap, why go through the hassle of moving all your users and all your developers over to a new chip architecture that in the end won't gain you 1 single percent of marketshare and will in fact make you lose some in all likelihood? Stupid. Not gonna happen. Sorry.

Intel putting a PPC decoder into their chips? Brainless.. Intel's chips aren't better than IBM's at least not now.. not with the current consumer series. And a massive switch like that for what? Your still running PPC.. Your still not gonna sell any more Macs than you would have on normal PPC based chips.. This is a little more credible however, but I just don't see it happening.. waste of time.

Cling to your hopes and dreams that all this is crap as I will until tomorrow, with your hopes of it only being WiMax or new chips for a tablet mac or whatever you can convince yourself it is for the next 15 hours.. but if they do it the right way, the way I presented it.. its not gonna be bad at all, in fact if QuickTransit runs like they claim (and you can be sure as f*ck that Apple made sure it does) then which of you will even notice a difference? Nobody. Everybody wins.

Stop freaking out :)
 
Laughing my a** off

Sorry, this whole thing is very amusing. I'm a huge Apple fan myself, and I've switched PLENTY of people I know to the platform...but the cries of anguish on these boards is pretty hilarious. RELAX, people! Apple isn't becoming Darth Vader, Microsoft isn't planting a flag in Cupertino, and your Mac isn't going to spectacularly implode so that it no longer even works as a paperweight.

As the NYT article says, and anyone who has looked into IBM/Apple's relationship can tell you, Apple just isn't a big enough customer for IBM to crank out lots of new chips each year. Apple needs innovation (mobile G5s, dual-core, etc), and IBM just has no reason to oblige.

Jobs is going to announce this at the WWDC. The D stands for Developer, in case you forgot. He's going to stand up in front of the people who are going to be affected most by this changeover, and you don't think he knows it's going to be a hard sell? Unless he plans to dissapear off stage being showered with boos, he'll have a very compelling arguement for why this is in Apple's best interest.

Boy, would I have loved to see the righteous anger that preceeded the announcement of OS X. Interesting times, interesting times.

And now, back to watching this drama unfold.
 
Jschultz said:
Pity, as I just dropped $1,299 on a new Powerbook :rolleyes:

Oh well, I'll probably want a new laptop in 2-3 years anyways.

My thoughts exactly. My superdrive iBook G4 will serve me well until this reported "transition" is over. I've just got Tiger, iLife '05, iWork '05, yada yada, it'll be smooth sailing for people like you and me for some time.
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