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The u.s. Subsidized the auto industry here a few years ago, and saved several companies from going under. That seems to have worked out great.
I assume you're talking about the financial crash? There's a big difference between helping otherwise profitable companies through a short term demand slump/ credit crunch and pumping money into a chronically uncompetitive and declining business. Once again, if your goal is maintaining US chip fab capability, if Intel can't sort itself out then just throwing money at them to keep plants on US soil going does nothing. Requiring Apple to use Intel fabs just because they're in the US is stupid if it stops Apple accessing the best technology and would just nerf their products, dragging Apple down with them.
 
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I assume you're talking about the financial crash? There's a big difference between helping otherwise profitable companies through a short term demand slump/ credit crunch and pumping money into a chronically uncompetitive and declining business. Once again, if your goal is maintaining US chip fab capability, if Intel can't sort itself out then just throwing money at them to keep plants on US soil going does nothing. Requiring Apple to use Intel fabs just because they're in the US is stupid if it stops Apple accessing the best technology and would just nerf their products, dragging Apple down with them.

I'd have to agree here. It wasn't a good look that the CEOs of GM and Chrysler were flying to D.C. on corporate jets to ask for a handout from the government.

Additionally, "turning out great"? Seeing that Pontiac, Saturn, Oldsmobile, and Hummer have all went under, as well as selling off Saab, I wouldn't call that "turning out great". Pontiac was the 3rd oldest brand GM had (Cadillac is the oldest, followed by Buick).

As for Chrysler goes, Daimler did the right thing in selling that off, as they made out the better of the two in that deal. Chrysler is now foreign owned again, which was a direct result of getting bailed out by TARP.

Only Ford didn't ask for anything.

I wouldn't call that "turning out great".

BL.
 
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Wait what? Doesn't the Intel CEO realize why Apple left them? What makes Intel think they can make better CPUs than the M1 from Taiwanese TSCM? Like what, Intel will offer their Intel Atom CPUs?
 
I assume you're talking about the financial crash? There's a big difference between helping otherwise profitable companies through a short term demand slump/ credit crunch and pumping money into a chronically uncompetitive and declining business. Once again, if your goal is maintaining US chip fab capability, if Intel can't sort itself out then just throwing money at them to keep plants on US soil going does nothing. Requiring Apple to use Intel fabs just because they're in the US is stupid if it stops Apple accessing the best technology and would just nerf their products, dragging Apple down with them.

I don’t think anyone is talking about “requiring” apple to use any particular fab, so that’s a strawman.

And if the issue Intel has been having can be remedied by government money, why not? Better for america to have a competitive Intel, and to have a U.S. source for chips.
 
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Wait what? Doesn't the Intel CEO realize why Apple left them? What makes Intel think they can make better CPUs than the M1 from Taiwanese TSCM? Like what, Intel will offer their Intel Atom CPUs?

That's not even the major question.. The bigger question is how can Intel keep up with the technology coming from TSMC when they would already be 9 months to 2 years behind TSMC? Additionally, you don't go trashing a former client and their products if you want to have their business back after failing that client. That is NOT a way to earn back business.


I don’t think anyone is talking about “requiring” apple to use any particular fab, so that’s a strawman.

And if the issue Intel has been having can be remedied by government money, why not? Better for america to have a competitive Intel, and to have a U.S. source for chips.

You do realize that you just recreated the entire Boeing v. Airbus battle, but only in reverse, right? If Intel lost a customer and had to go to the government for money to be competitive, they basically would have the government (and by extension, the taxpayer) subsidizing Intel so they can be competitive against any other competition: domestic, overseas, or otherwise. That was the very issue that Boeing was complaining to the WTO about with Airbus over the past 20 years. The big difference between Boeing v. Airbus and Intel v. TSMC is that Airbus didn't have a poor product line for their clients; Intel does. Getting subsidized from the government (and the taxpayer) does not absolve Intel from having a poor product; it only gives them money to try to compete with TSMC with a poor product. They would still lose the business, but in this case, it would be at the cost of the money that the government gives them. That isn't a good solution at all, nor would it be better for America.

What Intel needs to do is get their fabs up to speed fast and try to meet the 3nm and 4nm technologies that TSMC is working for and see if they can come out with a competitive M1-like chip with competitive results, and then try to earn Apple's business back.

As far as a US source for chips, paperwork has already been or is in the process of being signed for TSMC to build a fab in the US, so Intel has already been beat at that.

BL.
 
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Does anybody know if Intel’s problem are related to their manufacturing processes at lower node width or whether it’s due to them having issues with their micro-architecture (I don’t know, but maybe they have problem hitting high frequencies?) being manufactured using their lower node width?

If it’s due to the latter, it could be that Intel probably have a viable foundry offering to customers like Apple.
 
That's not even the major question.. The bigger question is how can Intel keep up with the technology coming from TSMC when they would already be 9 months to 2 years behind TSMC? Additionally, you don't go trashing a former client and their products if you want to have their business back after failing that client. That is NOT a way to earn back business.




You do realize that you just recreated the entire Boeing v. Airbus battle, but only in reverse, right? If Intel lost a customer and had to go to the government for money to be competitive, they basically would have the government (and by extension, the taxpayer) subsidizing Intel so they can be competitive against any other competition: domestic, overseas, or otherwise. That was the very issue that Boeing was complaining to the WTO about with Airbus over the past 20 years. The big difference between Boeing v. Airbus and Intel v. TSMC is that Airbus didn't have a poor product line for their clients; Intel does. Getting subsidized from the government (and the taxpayer) does not absolve Intel from having a poor product; it only gives them money to try to compete with TSMC with a poor product. They would still lose the business, but in this case, it would be at the cost of the money that the government gives them. That isn't a good solution at all, nor would it be better for America.

What Intel needs to do is get their fabs up to speed fast and try to meet the 3nm and 4nm technologies that TSMC is working for and see if they can come out with a competitive M1-like chip with competitive results, and then try to earn Apple's business back.

As far as a US source for chips, paperwork has already been or is in the process of being signed for TSMC to build a fab in the US, so Intel has already been beat at that.

BL.

Boeing v. Airbus proves my point. I don’t expect Europe to look out for America’s interests. But America can certainly do so.

TSMC being in the US is different from TSMC being a US company.
 
Does anybody know if Intel’s problem are related to their manufacturing processes at lower node width or whether it’s due to them having issues with their micro-architecture (I don’t know, but maybe they have problem hitting high frequencies?) being manufactured using their lower node width?

If it’s due to the latter, it could be that Intel probably have a viable foundry offering to customers like Apple.

Their problems are clearly node related.
 
Boeing v. Airbus proves my point. I don’t expect Europe to look out for America’s interests. But America can certainly do so.

TSMC being in the US is different from TSMC being a US company.

So you'd be okay with the US company getting subsidized while the overseas company who is doing better, does not?

That actually was Airbus' take on the Airbus v. Boeing matter, in which the WTO sided with Airbus in ruling that Boeing was being unfairly subsidized.

That still doesn't take away the fact that the problem here is Intel's poor products versus what Apple has designed and TSMC is making for Apple. Throwing more money - and taxpayer money at that - at a company to make subpar products that their lost client will not by will not get that client back. The technology that Apple has designed and TSMC is making is so far ahead that Intel would only be using taxpayer money to play catch up, which they would lose that battle... and waste taxpayer money in that losing battle.

In short, the Airbus v. Boeing battle disproves your point. Cases in point:
  • how bad and how many recalls the B787 has had, versus the A350.
  • The B737 MAX-8 and B737 MAX-9 versus the A320neo and A321neo.
  • The lack of a NMA versus the A321neo.
  • The lack of a competitor to the A220.
The solution to having subpar products to a better competitor is to create better products, not use someone else's money to continue to make subpar products.

BL.
 
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Yes, why wouldn’t I be? Just as someone from France would be okay subsidizing French companies.

Because a government giving a company money to do whatever it wants does not guarantee that the government or the taxpayer will GET what they want.

Case in point: During TARP, all of the banks and businesses that received bailout money to help bail out their company went to golden parachutes that the CEOs made for themselves.



If you want your money to go to them to do whatever they want without any guarantees with what they will do with it, that is on you. But as the government holds the people's taxpayer money, we not only expect better, but this goes against the credo that people on a certain side of the political spectrum adhere to, which is "no government interference in free market enterprise."

Intel isn't state sponsored, nor should it be, let alone any other company.

BL.
 
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So Apple wants to do business (buy components) with a company (Samsung) that competes with it in the iDevice and wearables market? Interesting business model!
Your statement demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what Samsung is as a company. Intel makes one thing and one thing only - chips. Sure, they might package those chips in some other products like NICs and storage but that’s pretty much all they are.

Samsung has such an insanely diverse product portfolio that your smug comment makes zero sense. probably the closest American equivalent to Samsung would be General Electric. They make products as diverse as fridges to jet engines for aircraft to nuclear reactors and everything in between.
 
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I don’t think anyone is talking about “requiring” apple to use any particular fab, so that’s a strawman.

And if the issue Intel has been having can be remedied by government money, why not? Better for america to have a competitive Intel, and to have a U.S. source for chips.
Well it isn't a straw man argument, no, because that's part and parcel of government intervening in commercial business and picking a winner. If there's public money going in to keep Intel going, the government will need to actually have something to show for it or people will get disenchanted about paying to support it very quickly. Throwing money down a hole that doesn't otherwise get any business is never going to be popular. Outside of enthusiast forums like this other people will have their own wants for tax spending. I would imagine Intel is very low on most people's priority list.

Businesses rise and fall and merge and split all the time. If Commodore and IBM had been given a cast iron guarantee Apple, Intel and Microsoft wouldn't have risen to preeminence. If Intel is singled out as the national chip champion for the US this also hurts other potential US players. That's the problem with a planned economy, you smother real upcoming innovators.

If Intel were to fall it's reasonably likely a new startup (or even an Intel spinoff) would try to move into the space. TSMC already has some plans to begin making chips in the US. Texas Instruments have a fab in Richardson. Apple, Microsoft, Google are all perfectly capable of setting up their own foundries if they really wanted to. AMD or Qualcomm could buy up what's left of Intel.

Intel has no right to be a successful corporation just because they're a famous name, and no right to public funds if it can't cut it competitively. Looking to diversify by fabricating chips for Apple and other customers (and ultimately probably bringing out their own line(s) of Arm based chips to tap into the mobile market) is probably the correct thing to do for them at this point, but they have to actually have a competitive platform for Apple et al to use first.
 
Not only does APPLE miss out on killer Intel CPU's coming down the Pipeline but also Killer New Memory DDR5!
Twice as fast.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Apple making use of DDR5 in their higher end desktop machines which have the board realestate for DIMM slots.
 
Given how you spelled check, why are you worried about the us taxpayer?
So because they spell “cheque” properly they can’t have an opinion?

Also, I think you’ll find that there are an awful lot of tax paying migrants in the US so your assumption on where they currently reside is well, presumptuous.
 
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And if the issue Intel has been having can be remedied by government money, why not? Better for america to have a competitive Intel, and to have a U.S. source for chips.
If they need a government bailout, by definition they aren’t “competitive” And throwing good money after bad won’t change the technological and cultural issues at Intel.
 
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i would like to get a modern graphic designed commemorative t-shirt of the CEO of Intel
and wear that to the beach, brew pub and apple store.
 
We are talking about future computers and upgrades but Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk, Zuckerberg, Andressenn Horowitz and all those crypto people are going to kill us all soon anyway 🩸

They want to destroy everything good in the world and be the masters of what remains. That’s why they allowed so much hate speech and division to spread like a fire 🔥

That’s why they invested in so many scams to steal money 💰 and cause dangerous climate change 🌏. That’s why they allowed misinformation and attacks on Bill Gates, Fauci and decent institutions because they want the public to point the finger at the wrong people.

Will we have a good future if sociopaths control our communication, manipulate our opinions, our finances and they are unelected and unaccountable? They are new Murdochs but hungrier.
 
If China were to invade Taiwan I‘d be less concerned with Apple‘s chip supply and more concerned with world war 3 starting.
They don’t have to invade Taiwan to be able to seriously impact their ability to deal western countries...China already considers Taiwan a part of China
 
They don’t have to invade Taiwan to be able to seriously impact their ability to deal western countries...China already considers Taiwan a part of China
I understand what the “One China Policy” is, but the situation in Taiwan is totally different to say, Hong Kong. Firstly, that Hong Kong is a territory of mainland China is not disputed internationally like Taiwan is. Secondly, China was able to co-op the autonomy of Hong Kong because there are pro-China elements in the Hong Kong legislature.

The same is not true in Taiwan, therefore China would not be able to use the legislature to gain control of Taiwan. The only way they could force Taiwan to do anything is militarily, which in turn would result in the US having to abandon its policy of ambiguity about Taiwanese sovereignty and outright support Taiwan.

The Chinese would not withdraw, which could lead the US to provide Military support to expel them. If the Russians then sided with the Chinese, that would draw in Great Britain (and NATO) and the commonwealth countries (including the extremely anti-Chinese India).
 
There's a lot of flaws in the argument when dealing with fab vs. fab on this thread.

Part of the arguments you see on here is presumptions that 5nm TSMC = 5nm Intel. That's just not true.


"We are projecting that Intel’s 7nm node will have an EN value of 4.1nm (intermediate between TSMC 5nm and 3nm nodes), the Intel 5nm node will have an EN value of 2.4nm (intermediate between TSMC 3nm and 2nm nodes),” says Jones, adding “and if Intel stays with a 2x per generation shrink the Intel 3nm node could have an EN value of 1.3nm or slightly better than TSMC’s 1.5nm. This of course presupposes Intel can execute 2x shrinks at a much faster pace than in the past.”"

Basically put... 7nm Intel = 4.1nm TSMC. TSMC is currently testing 3nm but it's not primetime ready, yet (2H 2022). Various tech sites from Tom's Hardware, Anandtech, down to YouTube tech sites like Gamers Nexus and Linus Tech Tips acknowledge that TSMC's and Intel's fabs are handled in very different ways in terms of transistor density and therefore the ability to shrink a die and also maintain a level of transistors for lower latency computing data transfer aren't an exact 1:1 match. They're not an exact Apples to Oranges comparison.

That isn't to take away from Intel basically dragging their feet through the entire Ryzen launch (first gen) to the current gen allowing AMD to creep up and surpass them. That said, while AMD holds a lead... it's not this massive insurmountable lead over Intel at this point. Further, x86 as a whole has been watching ARM play catch up in terms of massive uplift from generation to generation that x86 COLLECTIVELY hasn't been able to match. In terms of power to watt, it's an across the board advantage for ARM. People tend to only attribute ARM to "oh, that cute little SOIC in my cell phone or tablet..."

And then they fail to realize that Fugaku Supercomputer on CPU is currently the fastest super computer in the world running on Fujitsu a64fx, and it's not by some slim margin. They fail to realize that Amazon with Graviton 2 (Neoverse N1-based) socked both Intel and AMD in the jaw with regards to Xeon and Epyc in Enterprise (performance per watt, even if Epyc is faster at the high end [not by a lot]... it's still a small furnace less efficient regardless of the performance gains it made in current gen - heat = $ as you have to run cooling to compensate on top of the additional power draw; tapping into a chip that's nearly as fast with significantly lower cost of operation = a huge advantage for Amazon and part of why Microsoft joined the fray with first Marvell/Cavium and their announcements to build their own ARM CPU families). And the reality that with ARM's future roadmap now splitting the high end portion of the CPU design... the new high end is a two-tier approach that gives ARM the ability to maintain it's performance per watt significant advantage in Enterprise (Neoverse N2) while also pushing for brute force performance (Neoverse V1).

Those questioning why NVidia wants ARM? Look at it like this... They didn't have enough volume to keep Tegra in development. They only were able to sell the Shield (which is more of a niche product -- it's beloved, sure... but in the streamer market it's a tiny faction of the whole dominated by Roku, FireTV, AppleTV and Google with Google TV and Chromecast) and the Nintendo Switch based off of it. While NVidia seems committed to building a new SOIC for Nintendofor the Switch (2? Pro?), they had 0 pathway into the mobile market that Qualcomm, Samsung, Hisilicon (Huawei) and Apple dominate in marketshare. Even with Huawei's hit with the U.S., it's still a major global player.

Yet watching AMD looking poised to take the super computing crown by integrating their x86 Enterprise CPU dev team and their Radeon division together... and the amount of revenues contracts like these provide for a company on 1 partnership, it's obvious why NVidia would enter the fray. Integrating the massive performance gains in ARM in the Enterprise market with the NVidia GPU teams for Enterprise and Scientific-level computing... it gives NVidia an outlet to compete. Beyond that, they still use chip controllers from ARM or RISC-V tailored to their needs on GPU's. Their movement to be a RISC-V (open source architecture) partner came from a lack of outlet to really steward the ship with ARM. Being able to steward ARM more as an owner while also having a revenue stream from licensees... it's enticing and a big part of why NVidia is interested. That and it's a lot easier if NVidia wants to get into the Enterprise fray alongside Super Computing, for them to do so.
 
There's a lot of flaws in the argument when dealing with fab vs. fab on this thread.

Part of the arguments you see on here is presumptions that 5nm TSMC = 5nm Intel. That's just not true.


"We are projecting that Intel’s 7nm node will have an EN value of 4.1nm (intermediate between TSMC 5nm and 3nm nodes), the Intel 5nm node will have an EN value of 2.4nm (intermediate between TSMC 3nm and 2nm nodes),” says Jones, adding “and if Intel stays with a 2x per generation shrink the Intel 3nm node could have an EN value of 1.3nm or slightly better than TSMC’s 1.5nm. This of course presupposes Intel can execute 2x shrinks at a much faster pace than in the past.”"

Basically put... 7nm Intel = 4.1nm TSMC. TSMC is currently testing 3nm but it's not primetime ready, yet (2H 2022). Various tech sites from Tom's Hardware, Anandtech, down to YouTube tech sites like Gamers Nexus and Linus Tech Tips acknowledge that TSMC's and Intel's fabs are handled in very different ways in terms of transistor density and therefore the ability to shrink a die and also maintain a level of transistors for lower latency computing data transfer aren't an exact 1:1 match. They're not an exact Apples to Oranges comparison.

That isn't to take away from Intel basically dragging their feet through the entire Ryzen launch (first gen) to the current gen allowing AMD to creep up and surpass them. That said, while AMD holds a lead... it's not this massive insurmountable lead over Intel at this point. Further, x86 as a whole has been watching ARM play catch up in terms of massive uplift from generation to generation that x86 COLLECTIVELY hasn't been able to match. In terms of power to watt, it's an across the board advantage for ARM. People tend to only attribute ARM to "oh, that cute little SOIC in my cell phone or tablet..."

And then they fail to realize that Fugaku Supercomputer on CPU is currently the fastest super computer in the world running on Fujitsu a64fx, and it's not by some slim margin. They fail to realize that Amazon with Graviton 2 (Neoverse N1-based) socked both Intel and AMD in the jaw with regards to Xeon and Epyc in Enterprise (performance per watt, even if Epyc is faster at the high end [not by a lot]... it's still a small furnace less efficient regardless of the performance gains it made in current gen - heat = $ as you have to run cooling to compensate on top of the additional power draw; tapping into a chip that's nearly as fast with significantly lower cost of operation = a huge advantage for Amazon and part of why Microsoft joined the fray with first Marvell/Cavium and their announcements to build their own ARM CPU families). And the reality that with ARM's future roadmap now splitting the high end portion of the CPU design... the new high end is a two-tier approach that gives ARM the ability to maintain it's performance per watt significant advantage in Enterprise (Neoverse N2) while also pushing for brute force performance (Neoverse V1).

Those questioning why NVidia wants ARM? Look at it like this... They didn't have enough volume to keep Tegra in development. They only were able to sell the Shield (which is more of a niche product -- it's beloved, sure... but in the streamer market it's a tiny faction of the whole dominated by Roku, FireTV, AppleTV and Google with Google TV and Chromecast) and the Nintendo Switch based off of it. While NVidia seems committed to building a new SOIC for Nintendofor the Switch (2? Pro?), they had 0 pathway into the mobile market that Qualcomm, Samsung, Hisilicon (Huawei) and Apple dominate in marketshare. Even with Huawei's hit with the U.S., it's still a major global player.

Yet watching AMD looking poised to take the super computing crown by integrating their x86 Enterprise CPU dev team and their Radeon division together... and the amount of revenues contracts like these provide for a company on 1 partnership, it's obvious why NVidia would enter the fray. Integrating the massive performance gains in ARM in the Enterprise market with the NVidia GPU teams for Enterprise and Scientific-level computing... it gives NVidia an outlet to compete. Beyond that, they still use chip controllers from ARM or RISC-V tailored to their needs on GPU's. Their movement to be a RISC-V (open source architecture) partner came from a lack of outlet to really steward the ship with ARM. Being able to steward ARM more as an owner while also having a revenue stream from licensees... it's enticing and a big part of why NVidia is interested. That and it's a lot easier if NVidia wants to get into the Enterprise fray alongside Super Computing, for them to do so.

It’s been pointed out multiple times on this and other threads that you can’t just compare node names between Intel and TSMC. That said, this article isn’t quite all that you make it out to be either. Density is just one measure of equivalency, as the article, itself, admits.

I looked at a range of design rules, including minimum spacing, minimum width, minimum area, on multiple layers, for the last couple of generations, and on average one finds that TSMC-to-Intel node name translation is a shift of about 1. So 10nm TSMC is very very close in most design rules to Intel 14nm, and 7nm TSMC is close to Intel 10nm. Beyond that we can’t really compare because not a lot of information about 5nm TSMC and 7nm Intel is public yet. But it seems unlikely that suddenly you’d have to go all the way to 4.1nm TSMC to compare to 7nm Intel.

The reason density is not a great tool is because it assumes a transistor size (presumably min sized), and transistors are essentially never min sized. More importantly, it completely ignores the z-dimension - layer thicknesses are an incredibly important issue in chip performance, and if you have thicker layers in one process or another you need to adjust all your horizontal dimensions to compensate. So the first things I always asked when designing a cpu on a new process is “what’s my minimum spacing active-to-active, active-to-poly, poly-to-poly and poly-to-M0?“. Then “what are the parasitic capacitance and resistance coefficients for each layer,” because that takes into account heights of things.
 
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