Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
M2 has solid single core performance. But raptor lake already outclasses it.

Not at similar TDPs. The Raptor Lake-HX cited here starts at 55W and goes up to 157W. It can also go down to 45, but the kind of laptop being benchmarked rarely does.

Meanwhile, M2 power is around 20W. So really, you need to compare it to Raptor Lake-U. The 1370P starts at 28W and goes up to 64W, which is still way more than Apple needs; you still aren’t going to build a fanless MacBook Air like that. And that one? Scores 1700/12000.

Compares to 1700/7400 on the M1 or 1900/8700 on the M2. So, a significant edge on multiple threads, but 12% worse per thread. And, again, drawing more power.

We’ll also have to wait and see what real-world products look like. That M2 Air is a popular product you can buy today. Raptor Lake-based laptops with similar thermal characteristics? Jury’s out.

(It seems Intel has abandoned the Core M idea of 5W CPUs. They went up to 7, then 9, and now the line-up starts at 15W, and even that one clocks up to 55W. Maybe that is yet to come? But I assure you it won’t reach M2 performance.)
 
Intel announces 2 in 1 most powerful and hottest burning Mobile processor and Mobile Stove top.

ARE YOU GETTING IT!?! A Mobile processor and StoveTop Cooker! We’re not selling 2 devices here!
 
  • Like
Reactions: compwiz1202
Not at similar TDPs. The Raptor Lake-HX cited here starts at 55W and goes up to 157W. It can also go down to 45, but the kind of laptop being benchmarked rarely does.

Meanwhile, M2 power is around 20W. So really, you need to compare it to Raptor Lake-U. The 1370P starts at 28W and goes up to 64W, which is still way more than Apple needs; you still aren’t going to build a fanless MacBook Air like that. And that one? Scores 1700/12000.

Compares to 1700/7400 on the M1 or 1900/8700 on the M2. So, a significant edge on multiple threads, but 12% worse per thread. And, again, drawing more power.

We’ll also have to wait and see what real-world products look like. That M2 Air is a popular product you can buy today. Raptor Lake-based laptops with similar thermal characteristics? Jury’s out.

(It seems Intel has abandoned the Core M idea of 5W CPUs. They went up to 7, then 9, and now the line-up starts at 15W, and even that one clocks up to 55W. Maybe that is yet to come? But I assure you it won’t reach M2 performance.)
You can't buy a higher performance M2 mobile machine, but you can do so with Raptor Lake... yeah it may consume more power but okay. Also, on the desktop, M1 Max vs Raptor Lake / Zen 4 and Zen4 3D. x86 outclasses Apple Silicon in both single and multicore performance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aries79
Wow - the Ryzen 7040 (Phoenix Point) mobile proc looks to be impressive as well. Add that as a comparison to M2Pro and Raptor Lake.

I just hope Apple has equally impressive bumps this year.
 
So that's your take from a comparison of Macbooks running entry level Apple Silicon chips thrashing Performance tier Intel Macbooks from the same year?
it's really pointless to argue with someone so biased towards one side.
Yeah. As long as a user needs macOS, if they buy the latest macOS system of the form factor preferred, (and choose the highest performance options) they’ll find they have the fastest performing Mac of that form factor that exists. Fastest Mac, though, does not mean “highest raw performance of every shipping processor, Apple/Intel/AMD”. Anyone that thought OR ever expected that to be the case doesn’t understand Apple’s unique position in the market. There are much more performant laptops than the MacBook Air, but the MBA is STILL selling well for Apple. Apple’s no longer in the x86 raw performance race as their system as a whole, hardware/software provides benefits (one of the most distinctive of which is macOS compatibility) that their competition just can’t offer.

That Apple Silicon will ALWAYS be provided at a performance level lower than the peak raw performance of the highest spec AMD/Intel at any given time is not a bad thing. But, there’s some folks that think it is.
 
That's a huge load of prejudice that has nothing to do with industry standards for chip comparisons, unfortunately. Apple literally shocked the processor industry in 2020, and 2 years later Intel has fought and won that battle pretty well.

Let's wait for M2 pro level chips in the coming months to see how Apple responds.
Here’s a 100% accurate prediction for you. The M2 Pro level processors will provide, for Apple’s macOS performance customers, the highest performance Macs that can be bought at that time. There will be no macOS systems that are more performant.

There will be Intel and/or AMD solutions on the market that beat it in raw performance. This is neither surprising, unexpected nor controversial.
 
You can't buy a higher performance M2 mobile machine, but you can do so with Raptor Lake... yeah it may consume more power but okay.

Yeah, it turns out when you burn more heat, you can reach higher performance. It's a silly comparison.

Can you make a fanless laptop with Raptor Lake-P or -U (-Y doesn't appear to be planned) roughly the thickness and weight of the MacBook Air and have it perform similarly or better than the M2? So far, the answer looks like 'no'.

Can you make a higher-end laptop with Raptor Lake-H or -HX roughly the thickness, weight and noise of the 14-inch MacBook Pro and have it perform similarly or better than the M1 Pro? My guess on that is 'no' as well. Alder Lake-H laptops tend to be thicker and/or louder.

Is there a market segment for gaming laptops? Sure. Is Apple not competing in that segment? Indeed, and maybe you feel that's a bummer. But comparing CPUs only makes sense when you take similar wattages.

Also, on the desktop, M1 Max vs Raptor Lake / Zen 4 and Zen4 3D. x86 outclasses Apple Silicon in both single and multicore performance.

That's cool, but this thread is about mobile processors.
 
Yeah, it turns out when you burn more heat, you can reach higher performance. It's a silly comparison.

Can you make a fanless laptop with Raptor Lake-P or -U (-Y doesn't appear to be planned) roughly the thickness and weight of the MacBook Air and have it perform similarly or better than the M2? So far, the answer looks like 'no'.

Can you make a higher-end laptop with Raptor Lake-H or -HX roughly the thickness, weight and noise of the 14-inch MacBook Pro and have it perform similarly or better than the M1 Pro? My guess on that is 'no' as well. Alder Lake-H laptops tend to be thicker and/or louder.

Is there a market segment for gaming laptops? Sure. Is Apple not competing in that segment? Indeed, and maybe you feel that's a bummer. But comparing CPUs only makes sense when you take similar wattages.



That's cool, but this thread is about mobile processors.

Here is the trick, most of the obvious speed for everyday use (yes that includes video) comes from latest gen soldered SSD and RAM
 
  • Love
Reactions: compwiz1202
Yeah, it turns out when you burn more heat, you can reach higher performance. It's a silly comparison.

Can you make a fanless laptop with Raptor Lake-P or -U (-Y doesn't appear to be planned) roughly the thickness and weight of the MacBook Air and have it perform similarly or better than the M2? So far, the answer looks like 'no'.

Can you make a higher-end laptop with Raptor Lake-H or -HX roughly the thickness, weight and noise of the 14-inch MacBook Pro and have it perform similarly or better than the M1 Pro? My guess on that is 'no' as well. Alder Lake-H laptops tend to be thicker and/or louder.

Is there a market segment for gaming laptops? Sure. Is Apple not competing in that segment? Indeed, and maybe you feel that's a bummer. But comparing CPUs only makes sense when you take similar wattages.



That's cool, but this thread is about mobile processors.
Irrelevant points when you consider the alternative: a heavy immobile desktop or a powerful mobile raptor lake or dragon range laptop That has superior performance to apple’s offerings. Sure apple wins in perf per watt but for the graphic designer that needs nvidia’s hardware or the grunt of raptor lake or zen4, apple’s thin but underpowered m2 air or pro just won’t cut it.

There are many users out there who would gladly trade off a slightly thicker laptop(compared to the m2 air) for more performance as well as the ability to game on the go. Apple isn’t offering that.
 
Irrelevant points

No, taking TDP into consideration is not "irrelevant". It's so relevant, in fact, that both Intel and AMD group their CPUs by it.

when you consider the alternative: a heavy immobile desktop or a powerful mobile raptor lake or dragon range laptop That has superior performance to apple’s offerings.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

Sure apple wins in perf per watt but for the graphic designer that needs nvidia’s hardware or the grunt of raptor lake or zen4, apple’s thin but underpowered m2 air or pro just won’t cut it.

So, this hypothetical graphics designer could do their work yesterday, but now that Intel has launched "the world's fastest mobile processor" (for which no actual laptop has been reviewed yet), a Mac "just won't cut it"?

There are many users out there who would gladly trade off a slightly thicker laptop for more performance as well as the ability to game on the go. Apple isn’t offering that.

Yes, that's true. Good for them. I for one prefer to not hate my computer.

But regardless, if Apple did offer such a device, I would still want to compare CPUs by comparable thermals. I don't say "an Air's performance sucks compared to an M1 Max's", because their thermals differ, so the comparison is silly.
 
The 3050 TI is a beast. I don't know what kind of magic is in there, but your 100% correct.
It seems odd. I have a mid-2012 MacBook Pro 3rd generation quad-core i7 with GeForce 650M. I had an Omen by HP with 7th generation quad-core i7 and GeForce 1050. There didn't seem to be much difference in performance but heat was down from a maximum of 100 degrees C to around 65 degrees C. This new machine is rarely showing anything over high 40s and renders much more quickly. I haven't tried the ray tracing bits yet, though.

Having the Ryzen 7 5800H, RTX 3050 Ti, and an OLED display in a light 15.6 inch package for US$999 is amazing to me. It isn't a gamer's machine. It's a creator's machine.

Sadly, if my room is cold, I'll have to get out the mid-2012 MacBook Pro.
 
Yeah. As long as a user needs macOS, if they buy the latest macOS system of the form factor preferred, (and choose the highest performance options) they’ll find they have the fastest performing Mac of that form factor that exists. Fastest Mac, though, does not mean “highest raw performance of every shipping processor, Apple/Intel/AMD”. Anyone that thought OR ever expected that to be the case doesn’t understand Apple’s unique position in the market. There are much more performant laptops than the MacBook Air, but the MBA is STILL selling well for Apple. Apple’s no longer in the x86 raw performance race as their system as a whole, hardware/software provides benefits (one of the most distinctive of which is macOS compatibility) that their competition just can’t offer.

That Apple Silicon will ALWAYS be provided at a performance level lower than the peak raw performance of the highest spec AMD/Intel at any given time is not a bad thing. But, there’s some folks that think it is.
Maybe. But have ever your thought that you don’t understand the power play of Apple versus its competitors. Apple year after year beats Qualcomm mobile processors with their A chips on iPhones. They make sure they retain that lead by a big margin. With their M series for computers they planned and also played it out well to ensure that users knew how fast these new chips were esp for Apple apps. If you think Apple doesn’t care about beating their competitors in raw performance, you couldn’t be more wrong in your assessment of Apple. Apple has the fastest phone processor, fastest tablet processor and the fastest Smartwatch processor, they are not going to let Intel steal that thunder considering the very reason of dumping Intel was that it couldn’t keep up with AMD.
 
Maybe. But have ever your thought that you don’t understand the power play of Apple versus its competitors. Apple year after year beats Qualcomm mobile processors with their A chips on iPhones. They make sure they retain that lead by a big margin. With their M series for computers they planned and also played it out well to ensure that users knew how fast these new chips were esp for Apple apps.
Apple’s goal was never to “beat” Qualcomm, though. If it was, they would have slowed down progress a long time ago! :) Their goal with the A series was always to improve on their prior design. The fact that they soundly beat Qualcomm says more about Qualcomm and the market needs of their Qualcomm’s customers than it does Apple. Qualcomm was fortunate that there wasn’t an “AMD of ARM” nipping at their heels and that they would never have to worry about Apple selling those A series chips to other companies!

If you think Apple doesn’t care about beating their competitors in raw performance, you couldn’t be more wrong in your assessment of Apple.
Just like with the A series, Apple’s goals with the M series will ALWAYS be to improve on their prior design. Like the A series, sometimes that’ll mean a big jump, sometimes a smaller jump, but always better performance for the device that given solution is built on. I’ll put a note here with a reminder to check back with the M2 higher level processors have been released and my prediction is that Intel and maybe both Intel AND AMD will have x86 solutions on the market that outpace the M2 in several benchmarks. We may even see a chart from Apple as we have previously where they indicate that better peak raw performance can be found elsewhere, but not at Apple’s levels of efficiency.

Apple has the fastest phone processor, fastest tablet processor and the fastest Smartwatch processor, they are not going to let Intel steal that thunder considering the very reason of dumping Intel was that it couldn’t keep up with AMD.
Again, Apple is fastest in those areas mainly because Qualcomm hasn’t had anyone vying for their market, so their marketshare was safe. They didn’t have to expend vast sums and take risks because any company that wanted the fastest ARM processor for their Android designs were all going to be using Qualcomm designs! They didn’t even iterate on their watch chip for a few years, causing Android Wear to wither on the vine for a bit:) And, Intel has shown a serious inability to produce anything performant and efficient, so Qualcomm wasn’t even worried about them.

I’m not saying that Apple Silicon isn’t impressive, it is. But, when referring to PEAK performance, those monstrous desktop Intel PC’s with dedicated cooling hardware will always be faster than anything that Apple puts out. Heck, in some cases, what Intel sells can be overclocked by users such that, even if what Intel is selling isn’t faster (unlikely, but what if…), a user looking for raw peak performance can put in the work to overclock the system and obtain even higher performance. That’s a level of flexibility that won’t be found in any Apple Silicon design. Which is why I still say that, if highest peak performance is the primary goal and the user has no need for macOS, users will always find that performance in a Non-Apple Silicon system. Well, I mean, unless Intel has another Skylake run :D
 
Just to turn up the heat in this already hot one: what happened to x86 is dead now, ARM is the future narative? Good ole PowerPC days, but who remembers those today anyway. In order to predict the future you must learn from your past.
 
At CES 2023 the 1st Intel Core i9-13900HX laptops were announced. These outperform MBP 16" M2 Max laptops that use 140W chargers by using 330W chargers.

I was looking at the 2021 Mac Studio power consumption and noticed the $1999 M1 Max SKU had a max power input of 115W. That's 25W less than the 140W USB PD charger for a $3499 2021 MBP 16" M1 Max.

The $3999 2021 Mac Studio M1 Ultra max power is 100W more at 225W.

Last May 2022 240W USB PD cables started shipping.

It is possible when supply of M2 Ultra chips surpass demand for a 2023 Mac Studio M2 Ultra that Apple may come out with a new 2023 MBP 16" M2 Ultra SKU with a 240W USB PD charger. As the price difference of the two Mac Studio SKU is $2000 then odds are the 2023 MBP 16" M2 Ultra will sell for $5499.
 
Apple may come out with a new 2023 MBP 16" M2 Ultra SKU with a 240W USB PD charger.

I doubt it.

Yes, that market segment exists, but it's not very large. It would also likely have a battery that's >100W and thus can't be brought on flights, which makes such a laptop far less useful for many customers. And for what? Only multi-core numbers would go up.
 
I doubt it.

Yes, that market segment exists, but it's not very large. It would also likely have a battery that's >100W and thus can't be brought on flights, which makes such a laptop far less useful for many customers. And for what? Only multi-core numbers would go up.

To my understanding no laptop has a >100 watt-hours battery and Apple's at the limit with the MBP 16" at 99.6 watt-hours.

There is a market for 24-core CPU laptop chip and Intel proved it by having an actual shipping unit.

It is technically feasible. When performance cores are engaged it will naturally have lower battery life. But people who are buying this understand this caveat but are buying it for the raw performance.

Going on a somewhat related tangent a 3nm M3 Extreme that would be four M3 Max chips put together will probably sell for $7999 in a Mac Studio or $9999 in a Mac Pro. It is unlikely it will be placed in a MBP 16" with a 240W charger. It would probably need at most a 340W charger.
 
To my understanding no laptop has a >100 watt-hours battery and Apple's at the limit with the MBP 16" at 99.6 watt-hours.

Right, so an M2 Ultra laptop would have far worse battery life.

There is a market for 24-core CPU laptop chip and Intel proved it by having an actual shipping unit.

There is a market, but the question is: is it large enough for Apple to design a SoC that's used by a single model?

Going on a somewhat related tangent a 3nm M3 Extreme that would be four M3 Max chips put together will probably sell for $7999 in a Mac Studio or $9999 in a Mac Pro.

I imagine it won't be available in the Studio at all, and be used in part to entice people to get the Pro. So, the mini has M2 $599/M2 Pro $1399, the Studio has M2 Max $1999/M2 Ultra $3799, and the Mac Pro has M2 Ultra $5999/M2 Extreme $7999. Something like that.
 
Last edited:
There is a market, but the question is: is it large enough for Apple to design a SoC that's used by a single model?
M2 Ultra for the 2023 Mac Studio would be used in the MBP 16". So why the need to design a unique Ultra for the MBP?

Unless the Ultra cannot fit in a 2023 MBP 16" then there's no technical limit for it not be a future SKU.
 
M2 Ultra for the 2023 Mac Studio would be used in the MBP 16". So why the need to design a unique Ultra for the MBP?

You're right, that doesn't make sense.

Unless the Ultra cannot fit in a 2023 MBP 16" then there's no technical limit for it not be a future SKU.

I guess I was more thinking in the direction of "what if you took Intel's HX series approach and applied it to the M2 series". Meaning that this high-end laptop would come with a SoC that's neither the M2 Max nor quite the M2 Ultra, but rather either a mobile-form-factor variant of the M2 Ultra or a slightly expanded M2 Max (e.g., by increasing the clock).

Can the M2 Ultra itself fit in a laptop? If you take the 16-inch and make it thicker, sure, why not. Does Apple want to do that? I don't think so.
 
I guess I was more thinking in the direction of "what if you took Intel's HX series approach and applied it to the M2 series". Meaning that this high-end laptop would come with a SoC that's neither the M2 Max nor quite the M2 Ultra, but rather either a mobile-form-factor variant of the M2 Ultra or a slightly expanded M2 Max (e.g., by increasing the clock).

Can the M2 Ultra itself fit in a laptop? If you take the 16-inch and make it thicker, sure, why not. Does Apple want to do that? I don't think so.
Based on teardowns and benchmarks the M1/M1 Pro/Max/Ultra SoC for laptops are the same ones put into the desktops. It increases the units per Apple silicon series as any fab flaws are binned. The most perfect SoC is the M1 Ultra while those that exhibit any imperfections get deactivated cores/engines/transistors then binned to whatever category it fits.

This is a good plan to minimize any possible waste to near zero per 300mm silicon wafer.

I was hoping that Mac chips destined for the desktop were overlocked as a differentiator in performance between laptop & desktop like how Intel/AMD does it for the past 4 decades.



I did not do a deep dive but it is possible that the iPhone chips are binned Mac chips.

What was pointed out to me that the challenge of fitting a M2 Ultra into a MBP 16" is not the thickness of the laptop but the length of the space on the logic board.

Below is Ultra chip that are 2 Max chips put together.

Apple-M1-chip-family-lineup-220308_big.jpg.large.jpg


Below is the Ultra SoC inside it's package with RAM chips beside it to minimize any latency near to zero. This improves performance and power consumption further. Not too good for people who want to upgrade RAM after the fact.

Apple-M1-Ultra-chipset-220308_big.jpg.large.jpg


I'll put it this way. Until someone volunteers their time to show that an Ultra chip cannot fit on a MBP 16" logic board space then I say it will eventually come to the 2023 MBP 16" when supply of Ultra chip is more than demand on the 2023 Mac Studio by June.

The 240W USB PD spec for the charger and cable is already been there since May. It fits perfectly to the Ultra's extra 100W power requirements.

Intel showcased a 24-core CPU laptop chip that uses a 330W charger. A M2 Ultra chip would have a 24-core CPU as well but will use a 240W charger. There may become a mismatch in price points as I expect the MBP 16" SKU to cost $5499.

If users are willing to put up with Intel's very short battery life from a 10nm part then the Ultra's 5nm part will pretty much have near double battery even if it may not reach near 24 hour battery life of other M2 series Macs. People buying an Ultra do so for the raw performance but still puts importance on battery life & performance per watt.

By comparison Gigabyte's AORUS 17X gaming laptop with i9-13900HX 24-core CPU and RTX 4090 GPU pre-orders for $3899. I am unsure if Apple will price match or at least price cut to nearing that price.
 
Last edited:
I did not do a deep dive but it is possible that the iPhone chips are binned Mac chips.

No, the iPhone chips (the A series) have the same cores as the Mac/iPad chips (the M series), but they run at a lower clock, there's fewer of them, and they're inside an entirely different SoC layout.

Or, to flip that around, an M1 is like an A14 but with more cores, running at a higher clock, and some more features (such as Thunderbolt support). Its layout is quite different as a result. An M1 Max has again a different layout than the M1, but uses more cores, running at the same clock, with a faster memory controller and some more features (such as better video encoding and more external display controllers). An M1 Pro takes the M1 Max and cuts off half the memory controllers and GPU cores. An M1 Ultra takes the M1 Max and doubles it.

The M2, I believe, is more similar in that the M2 is derived from the M2 Max, but I'm not sure about that.

What was pointed out to me that the challenge of fitting a M2 Ultra into a MBP 16" is not the thickness of the laptop but the length of the space on the logic board.

That really amounts to the same thing. The M1 Max is just 22x20mm, so the M1 Ultra is roughly 44x20. The outer chassis can certainly spare 4.4 centimeters; it's just that they cram the battery, etc. next to the logic board that causes the space constraint. Make the entire thing thicker, and you can have the logic board take up more horizontal space.

(But, again, I don't think they'll do that.)

 
  • Like
Reactions: Unregistered 4U
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.