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Intel Merom (64-bit Mobile Processor) Due in September?
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raster said:
All of Intel's processor names are geographical locations chosen by the team that designed the processor. Most of the "nature" sounding ones of the past refer to places in the northwest United States, since the design team is in Portland, Oregon. Most of the "Bible" sounding ones (Yonah, Merom, Conroe), refer to places around Haifa, Israel, where the design team for those processors is based.
Consider yourself ignorant to this matter no longer.
And don't worry, I'm sure many people think "Brooklyn" would be a stupid, disjointed name as well.
I wouldn't call a processor Brooklyn,~Shard~ said:All of Intel's processor names are geographical locations chosen by the team that designed the processor. Most of the "nature" sounding ones of the past refer to places in the northwest United States, since the design team is in Portland, Oregon. Most of the "Bible" sounding ones (Yonah, Merom, Conroe), refer to places around Haifa, Israel, where the design team for those processors is based.
Consider yourself ignorant to this matter no longer.
And don't worry, I'm sure many people think "Brooklyn" would be a stupid, disjointed name as well.
Oh I see you are in Canada...
Does anyone have any thoughts on my post #125 of this thread in regards to EM64T being similar to MMX?
I am a college student, and a Mac fan for a couple years now, even though I have never owned one. I have read many posts and have tried to keep up with the recent Apple systems. I am definetly ready to become a switcher. I am looking at the Macbook very heavily, but I was wondering about a few things. I like to play games, like Call of Duty, Halo and games that take up as much or more of my comp.(although games aren't extremely important, but it's nice to know that you can, and with a 128 gb vcard, you can) I also like to do a little photowork, which I figure mac has to be better than what I have now and do it faster. I know that office 2003 should work well under Rosetta, especially with a core duo. with one gb ram, probably all I need. I was going to get a Macbook when they came out, but honestly I only need it right before school, so I might as well wait until leopard comes out and also hope the price drops a little over a few months. The thing I did not want to wait for was mermon( sry bout my spelling) I have heard mixed predictions about 64 bit, and as speed is not extremely important for me, and as long as programs are written in 32 bit for a few years, I will be happy, basically I want to know that for the things I will use it for will 32 bit and the Mac be good for me
I appreciate any help
PS. 32 bit programs will be around for a few years right?
I appreciate any help
PS. 32 bit programs will be around for a few years right?
Drummerboy said:
No, it it more like the move from 16-bit to 32-bit with the introduction of the 386. Whereas MMX was something that an individual process could choose to use or not, EM64T/AMD64 is different. It is a new operating mode of the processor. It is possible to force the processor to switch between 32-bit and 64-bit mode, but you get a MAJOR performance hit. It is significantly better to run the processor in 64-bit mode the whole time. That is why on Windows, you need a whole new version of Windows (Windows XP Professional x64 Edition) to run in 64-bit mode.
MMX is a set of extra instructions. (Same with SSE, SSE2, SSE3, and AltiVec.) A program just tries to send the new instructions to the processor, and if the processor understands it, it uses it. If not, then the processor sends an error. x86's 64-bit mode is one where the processor needs to be put into '64-bit mode', then you send 64-bit data to it, and execute 64-bit instructions. If you want to run 32-bit processes, you need to take the entire processor out of 64-bit mode to run 32-bit processes. Because in a modern multithreaded OS, it isn't feasable to kill all 64-bit processes every time you want to run a 32-bit one, Microsoft gets around this by basically emulating the 32-bit mode INSIDE the 64-bit mode. (Vaguely similar in theory to Rosetta, but without the performance hit, since it is just 'padding' the 32-bit data into 64-bit data, and passing the 32-bit instructions through to their 64-bit counterparts.)
Yes, early on, Intel denegrated AMD's 64-bit extensions by attempting to put x64 on par with MMX as 'just an extension'. But in reality, it is basically a new architecture that happens to have the same instruction set as x86, only supporting 64-bit. Just as adding 32-bit to the 386 was essentially a new 32-bit archtiecture, rather than 'just an extension' of the 16-bit 286.
This is different than 64-bit on PowerPC, where you don't need to shift the processor into a different mode, you just have to have an OS that recognizes the 64-bit-ness, and allows applications to access the larger address space, and work on 64-bit chunks of data.
What this means is that OS X 10.4.5 for Intel will theoretically work on the new 64-bit Intel Macs (of course, Apple always blocks using an older OS on a newer model, but in theory it would work,) but it would only operate in 32-bit mode. Likewise, if Apple were to compile OS X 10.4.8 (for example,) for 64-bit Intel when Conroe comes out, and NOT for 32-bit Intel, it wouldn't boot at all on the current iMac, MacBook Pro, or mini.
That means that if Apple does release a 64-bit version of OS X Intel, they will have THREE code branches to maintain... PPC, 32-bit Intel, and 64-bit Intel. (PPC, wether 64-bit or 32-bit, isn't that much different to require a completely separate code base. x86 is different enough.) That could mean three 10.5 install discs, one for 32-bit Intel, one for PPC, and one for 64-bit Intel.
Drummerboy said:
Hopefully this answers it for you. :-D
And yes, RollTide, 32-bit apps will be around for a while. Either that, or Apple will have to offer everyone who bought an iMac, MBP, or mini an exchange for a new 64-bit equivalent later this year.
ehurtley,
Noting that you have the MBP, do you have any second thoughts now as far as not waiting for the Merom (now appearing to be coming late this year/early next)?
Noting that you have the MBP, do you have any second thoughts now as far as not waiting for the Merom (now appearing to be coming late this year/early next)?
sdot said:
No. Leopard will not be released that soon. We are only getting a preview of it in August at WWDC, so it will not be available until 2007.
Drummerboy said:
None at all. My old PowerBook was getting really flaky (after having been dropped a few times over the years,) so I really needed a new notebook. Had Steve-o released 2.0 GHz PowerBook G4's, I would have gotten one of those instead. (Had he not released any new 'pro' notebook, or yet another not-speed-bumped G4, I would have likely gone for a used 1.5 GHz 15"er from 2004.)
And my desktop will be due for replacement this Fall, so I'll get a new Merom or Conroe based iMac later this year. (Or maybe even a Conroe or Woodcrest 'Mac Pro' if my business keeps going well.)
And Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest has been planned for release in Q3 of this year for some time. I knew full well that the 32-bit Yonah was a stopgap for Apple. Something to accelerate the transition, and that's it. (I honestly think that when Steve announced the transition, he had Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest in mind as the launch processors, but when Yonah was due so much earlier, he decided to do a crash intro of Yonah.)
ehurtley said:
I really need a Mac asap for audio production. I was gonna get the exact spec MBP you have, but I can wait for mobile work until the end of the year. I've more or less decided therefore to get the 17 iMac with 1*1GB Ram being the only upgrade (so stock 160 HD, 128 Graphix). This, I think, is the best option in my situation. I plan on using Logic and then later Ableton Live 6 and other midi plug-ins. I made the decision for the iMac after reading this merom thread; this was the last straw for me - the MBP has numerous rev a problems that I may or may not encounter (noise related, airport - less an issue on the imac - battery). Plus I'll get the iMac in a few days.
eHurtley, do you think the iMac is the best choice for me until merom MBPs arrive?
Cheers
Dave
mrfop said:
i'm dying here. i have the money for a mac and i am going to buy one along with a MH2882 . but i KNOW i should wait to look at the 17". it is painful waiting. after akk of this time, i have the money...and there is even a computer i could be happy with...but daggumit i need to know i didnt short myself.
mrfop said:
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about audio production to give you a good answer. I know Logic is now Universal, but I have no idea about Ableton Live (or even what it is,) so I don't know if even going with an Intel system is a good choice for you right now. It might actually be your best bet to find a first-gen dual 2.0 GHz Power Mac G5 or something, if your apps aren't Universal yet.
If all your apps ARE universal, you may even be able to get away with a Core Duo Mini... (If you are doing almost entirely CPU-based processing, and not doing anything that requires a good video card.)
I'm near to dying as well. But for other reasons ;-) -> I'm currently still Windows/Linux user with a crappy two-years-old consumer Thinkpad R40e, wich was the worst malinvestment I ever did. (Should have bought some G4 Powerbook or iBook these days). So by now I'm still a highly motivated "switcher".
With all the rumors and concerns about the 32bit yonah-stop-gap, I'm waiting for MBP 64 like all the others, as this notebook should at least last for 4 years. And I think as well, Apple and other software-producers wont deal with all the universal-binaries and emulation levels like rossetta for that period and sooner as we wish will only support 64-bit apps. (Wich will be only a logic step, as the 32bit Intel CoreDuo owners are only a small fraction of mac users, sacrificed for marketing issues, therefore unimportant in some months)
So I'm not interested in the current CoreDuo MacBooks at all (add those rumors about noise probs with which I'm already fed up with my thinkpad, makes my choice to wait even clearer...).
But my next concerns would be: Will the first release of MBP 64 bit be a half-hearted solution as well? And without Leopard released alongside, will there be fully 64bit support? Having in mind the mentioned "lame" PPC64bit support in Tiger and the current yonah intel-transition-process which was a giant mistake by apple and intel in my opinion, bad for both, users and Apple: Will there be again transition-solutions heading for 64bit? I hope apple wont do any big mistakes like the CoreDuo release in near future, releasing half-baked 64bitIntel technology...
Other concerns are power consumption and mobility. Will it be possible to use the MBP 64 longer than those "standard" two hours, wich is in my eyes the lowest end I could apreciate; should really be substandard by now - even some old heavy HP/Compaq "desktop notebooks" can run on battery for more than 5 hours using speedstep. Notebooks should have battery-capacity of at least 6-8 hours nowadays. 2-3 hours is not really mobile technology.
My next notebook should really feature way more mobility than my stupid thinkpad. And if somebody has any information on Airport's capacity/range/antennas on big campuses, maybe in comparison to other notebooks (Dells have very good built-in wlan-antennas) I would be pleased.
I'm planning to spent a lot of money... so there are lots of concerns ;-)
The MBP64 will be high-end-priced, so I really want to be sure, that it fits my needs and wont be a mispurchase, therefore I'm expecting high-end technology.
I made some really bad malinvestments in the past - including buying iPod Photo only weeks before the Video came out *args* and of course not to forget my crappy plastic-thinkpad *laugh* (you may laugh as well!)
With all the rumors and concerns about the 32bit yonah-stop-gap, I'm waiting for MBP 64 like all the others, as this notebook should at least last for 4 years. And I think as well, Apple and other software-producers wont deal with all the universal-binaries and emulation levels like rossetta for that period and sooner as we wish will only support 64-bit apps. (Wich will be only a logic step, as the 32bit Intel CoreDuo owners are only a small fraction of mac users, sacrificed for marketing issues, therefore unimportant in some months)
So I'm not interested in the current CoreDuo MacBooks at all (add those rumors about noise probs with which I'm already fed up with my thinkpad, makes my choice to wait even clearer...).
But my next concerns would be: Will the first release of MBP 64 bit be a half-hearted solution as well? And without Leopard released alongside, will there be fully 64bit support? Having in mind the mentioned "lame" PPC64bit support in Tiger and the current yonah intel-transition-process which was a giant mistake by apple and intel in my opinion, bad for both, users and Apple: Will there be again transition-solutions heading for 64bit? I hope apple wont do any big mistakes like the CoreDuo release in near future, releasing half-baked 64bitIntel technology...
Other concerns are power consumption and mobility. Will it be possible to use the MBP 64 longer than those "standard" two hours, wich is in my eyes the lowest end I could apreciate; should really be substandard by now - even some old heavy HP/Compaq "desktop notebooks" can run on battery for more than 5 hours using speedstep. Notebooks should have battery-capacity of at least 6-8 hours nowadays. 2-3 hours is not really mobile technology.
My next notebook should really feature way more mobility than my stupid thinkpad. And if somebody has any information on Airport's capacity/range/antennas on big campuses, maybe in comparison to other notebooks (Dells have very good built-in wlan-antennas) I would be pleased.
I'm planning to spent a lot of money... so there are lots of concerns ;-)
The MBP64 will be high-end-priced, so I really want to be sure, that it fits my needs and wont be a mispurchase, therefore I'm expecting high-end technology.
I made some really bad malinvestments in the past - including buying iPod Photo only weeks before the Video came out *args* and of course not to forget my crappy plastic-thinkpad *laugh* (you may laugh as well!)
iMac upgradeability...and hardware issues
I apologize if this question was answered already...but if the merom chip comes out, will it be completely compatible with the current Intel iMac? I know that it may increase RAM capability to 4 GB (and possibly beyond) but for the iMac, will it change the RAM type requirement? Won't a chip upgrade of this magnitude require a whole new motherboard design/specs? Will a simple processor chip exchange change the whole computer from a 32 bit to a 64 bit computer? I don't know but it just seems like it would require upgraded hardware. Any answers would help. Thanks!
I apologize if this question was answered already...but if the merom chip comes out, will it be completely compatible with the current Intel iMac? I know that it may increase RAM capability to 4 GB (and possibly beyond) but for the iMac, will it change the RAM type requirement? Won't a chip upgrade of this magnitude require a whole new motherboard design/specs? Will a simple processor chip exchange change the whole computer from a 32 bit to a 64 bit computer? I don't know but it just seems like it would require upgraded hardware. Any answers would help. Thanks!
Will Apple enforce that software marked Universal to run on both 32-bit and 64-bit platforms?
Will Apple in a year start only releasing 64-bit versions of their OS?
This could lead to software to requiring that OS version thus enabling software to discontinue supporting 32-bit platforms.
Anyone think the Merom MBP's be close in price to the high-end Core Duo's or are we talking over $3000 (pushing out of my price range)?
I keep hearing mixed delivery times of the Merom ranging from next month to next year and I am still waiting for my MBP to ship.
My concern is the possibilities of no 32-bit development after a year or two. I am not concerned about it being a faster proc as I am well aware of Moore's Law. I want this laptop to last 4 years with very little compatibility issues and in two years the Core Duo may have many compatibility issues due to lack of 64-bit capabilities.
I'm currently using a Thinkpad 570 (yup, P2-333) and a P3-1000 Franken-puter (pieced together) for a desktop so I can get by for just a bit (painfully). This would be my first Mac.
Will Apple in a year start only releasing 64-bit versions of their OS?
This could lead to software to requiring that OS version thus enabling software to discontinue supporting 32-bit platforms.
Anyone think the Merom MBP's be close in price to the high-end Core Duo's or are we talking over $3000 (pushing out of my price range)?
I keep hearing mixed delivery times of the Merom ranging from next month to next year and I am still waiting for my MBP to ship.
My concern is the possibilities of no 32-bit development after a year or two. I am not concerned about it being a faster proc as I am well aware of Moore's Law. I want this laptop to last 4 years with very little compatibility issues and in two years the Core Duo may have many compatibility issues due to lack of 64-bit capabilities.
I'm currently using a Thinkpad 570 (yup, P2-333) and a P3-1000 Franken-puter (pieced together) for a desktop so I can get by for just a bit (painfully). This would be my first Mac.
These threads can be so funny - and so stupid too. Bu the bloody machine when you want to buy a machine, and if you can afford to buy another one tomorrow because tomorrow is when it comes out then do it. If not then don't. I can't undrstand all these people who are constantly selling their old machines and buying the new ones at minimum spec just because they're new. I buy new machines when they come out because I can afford to, but there's no way I'm I'm going to the inconvenience of selling a machine a few weeks or whatever before a new one comes out just so I can get a bit of cash for it.Seasought said:Can't wait all of the panic-induced "should I sell my current macbook/powerbook/whatever for the new Macs?" threads.
I'll wait
i personally don't see what the fuss is all about. I'm gonna wait till i can have at least 4 cores in my notebook 4-8GB RAM, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD (which ever becomes industry standard), at least 250GB HDD storage, 1000+FSB, native 64 bit apps & Mac OS 10.X....actually i dunno about that last part. To be frank leopard isn't getting me all that excited i might even skip Mac OS 10.5 all together unless the fix the safari memory leakage issue. I know some people who still use panther with no qualms.
My last machine for a while would've been the last powerbook revision had they not had the "line on screen and audio looping problems" BUT now i'm honestly happy with my MacBook Pro and will be for a while.
I'm sure there are one or two things, but i don't think i'll see a difference between a Dual Core Yonah and a Dual Core Merom in real life usage as far as im concerned its like a 1.5GHz to 1.67GHz G4 upgrade. Quad Core or Dual Quad Core Meroms? whoa!, then we'll talk
i personally don't see what the fuss is all about. I'm gonna wait till i can have at least 4 cores in my notebook 4-8GB RAM, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD (which ever becomes industry standard), at least 250GB HDD storage, 1000+FSB, native 64 bit apps & Mac OS 10.X....actually i dunno about that last part. To be frank leopard isn't getting me all that excited i might even skip Mac OS 10.5 all together unless the fix the safari memory leakage issue. I know some people who still use panther with no qualms.
My last machine for a while would've been the last powerbook revision had they not had the "line on screen and audio looping problems" BUT now i'm honestly happy with my MacBook Pro and will be for a while.
I'm sure there are one or two things, but i don't think i'll see a difference between a Dual Core Yonah and a Dual Core Merom in real life usage as far as im concerned its like a 1.5GHz to 1.67GHz G4 upgrade. Quad Core or Dual Quad Core Meroms? whoa!, then we'll talk
daneoni said:
And the best part is, when all those things are readily available, there will be technology much better than it "coming soon" which you will then want to wait for instead. Trust me, you'll never win.
daneoni said:
Why? What have you seen on Leopard so far that doesn't excite you? Apple has not released any official details regarding Leopard whatsoever, so you're basiing your comment on... nothing?
just be content....
I cant see why people are worred about the "yonah 9 month shelf life" and not being able to just plug in the new fabled 64 chip when it does come out.
if your wanting one because you need a faster computer (like i do)and you like the look of one,then get it because as said before there will always be a faster one in the pipeline.
im happy having an imac with a swappable cpu,thats a little slower than the current spec as it ages,mabe im thinking this because im useing a 1ghz 12" powerbook with panther,which i obioviosly cant upgrade(apart from the os),unless i want to buy a whole logic board,so anything of the new range will be an impovement!
one last thing,if apple were hoping to initially intending to ship the intel imac with with a 64 chip but couldnt,i still would have thought they would atleast make the mobo`s chipset compatable with the anticipated upgrade(unless its simply also unavalable/not needed),i must admit i dont know much about that aspect,im guessing thats apple`s way of throwing a "spanner in the works"of any would-be home upgrader
few days till my new imac arrives.....
I cant see why people are worred about the "yonah 9 month shelf life" and not being able to just plug in the new fabled 64 chip when it does come out.
if your wanting one because you need a faster computer (like i do)and you like the look of one,then get it because as said before there will always be a faster one in the pipeline.
im happy having an imac with a swappable cpu,thats a little slower than the current spec as it ages,mabe im thinking this because im useing a 1ghz 12" powerbook with panther,which i obioviosly cant upgrade(apart from the os),unless i want to buy a whole logic board,so anything of the new range will be an impovement!
one last thing,if apple were hoping to initially intending to ship the intel imac with with a 64 chip but couldnt,i still would have thought they would atleast make the mobo`s chipset compatable with the anticipated upgrade(unless its simply also unavalable/not needed),i must admit i dont know much about that aspect,im guessing thats apple`s way of throwing a "spanner in the works"of any would-be home upgrader
few days till my new imac arrives.....
studiomeridian said:
At this point, it's still unclear. Intel has said that Merom will work with a chipset that has the same codename that the Core Duo's chipset had, but that doesn't guarantee drop-in compatibility.
IF the currently shipping chipset is already 64-bit compatible, and IF Merom has the same power requirements (mainly Voltage,) and IF Merom uses the same socket, then it would very likely be drop-in compatible with a firmware update from Apple. Based on past systems, though, I doubt Apple would update the firmware. (Although an enterprising third party could do so.)
But, based on past INTEL experiences, in all likelihood, at least the power requirements will change, and more liekly it will require a revision of the chipset. It might be a 'drop-in' replacement for the manufacturer (i.e. replace the older chipset chip with a new chip that is 100% pin-compatible,) but not a simple processor swap for the end user. It's also possible that Apple would decide to use the desktop chip (codenamed Conroe,) instead of the laptop chip (Merom) in the iMac. Conroe is planned to have a faster front side bus, so that almost guarantees no drop-in replacement to Conroe. (Conroe will probably also use a socket more similar to the current Pentium 4 socket, rather than the socket currently used by Core Duo.)
It's almost guaranteed that the memory will be the same, though. (Although Apple might use the upgrade as an opportunity to change the iMac from laptop-style SO-DIMMs to desktop-style DIMMs.)
daneoni said:
Well, Intel claims that at the same power draw, Merom will be 20% faster than Yonah. That most likely means 20% faster clock speed for the same power draw; but it could mean 10% faster clock and 10% faster per clock.
And Intel's current roadmap doesn't show quad+ core laptop chips anywhere. It shows quad+ core server chips and quad core "super desktop" chips in late '07. (The "super desktop" chips will just be the same server chips re-branded as desktop chips, like the 'Pentium 4 Extreme Edition'.)