Intel Merom (64-bit Mobile Processor) Due in September?

[rxse7en]

A previous post linked to a story claiming that Merom would be delayed because MS Vista was delayed. I would hate to think that Apple would impacted because of a Vista rewrite. If Apple has 10.5 ready and Merom MacBooks ready to go this could be why the analysts are saying that Apple has the potential to take a nice little bite out of the market this Fall. Again, I just hope that Apple is not delayed because Intel wants to hold out for Vista. Anyone with more insight into the situation want to chime in?

B

 

[gnasher729]

Your reasoning makes sense, but you also need to consider that there really won't be that many MacIntels sold during the "9 months of Yonah" - compared to the number sold this fall after 64-bit chips are available on every MacIntel from the low end to the high end. And, the MacIntels that are currently being sold are primarily lower-end systems - the 64-bit systems will be higher-end.

If I had the choice between products from two companies, one running everywhere, but at slightly lower speed, whereas the other company told half their potential customer to **** off, for a ten or twenty percent speed gain, I would choose the first company. Even if I am one of the lucky ones with newer hardware, what will happen when _my_ hardware is out-of-date? Someone who treats half their potential customers badly today will one day treat you badly.

 

[Towel]

Why are so many people hyperventilating about 64-bit chips? Yes, within a couple of years all CPUs will be 64-bit capable. But it's going to be years beyond that before there is any sort of universal benefit to running on 64-bit hardware, and more years before running such hardware becomes a requirement. Some simple guideposts:

1. The G5 was and still is Apple's only 64-bit CPU. PowerBooks have never been 64-bit. By definition, no Mac pros have ever done mobile 64-bit computing.
2. The only bits of OS X that are 64-bit-capable are the kernel/BSD components. You cannot, right now, create a 64-bit-aware GUI application. At all. The only 64-bit-aware apps are specialized (mostly scientific) apps that are command-line only. (Yes, some mathematical apps can tie into these command-line tools to make certain functions 64-bit-aware, but these hardly affect the general computing audience.)
3. Until Apple updates OS X to be 64-bit-aware throughout, and similarly updates XCode to compile 64-bit GUI apps, there will continue to be no 64-bit-aware GUI apps.
4. After Apple finishes #3, there will be a long delay while major software publishers wait until the next rev of their apps to recompile for 64-bit-ness. Think Intel transition all over again. How fast is that going, when the tools have been around for a year already? Adobe is waiting two years to release Intel-native apps. Expect as long of a delay for 64-bit-ness.
5. Even after all developers start compiling 64-bit-aware apps, it will be years longer before they drop support for 32-bit versions.

My back-of-the-envelope timeline would be that all of Apple's CPUs will be 64-bit by the end of 2007, at the earliest. Leopard *might* be through-and-through 64-bit-aware, and should be released by summer 2007. I would expect, then, that 64-bit apps will start appearing in late 2007 at the earliest. And that most apps won't be 64-bit-aware before the end of 2008. And, finally, that 32-bit compatibility won't be dropped for at least two years after that, around 2010.

So please, stop hyperventilating about whether the MBP is a "Yikes" or the CD is a dead end. The horizon for 64-bit apps making a realistic impact on most of our lives is so far off that it's almost absurd to be worrying about it now. The CoreDuo is a kick-ass chip, and the MBP is a kick-ass computer.

 

[Towel]

Finally, regarding the kick-ass-ness of the CoreDuo MBP - you need to keep in mind just what a big deal the move to dual cores is, especially for a laptop. Anyone who uses a dual-proc PowerMac can tell you that multiple CPUs makes a real, immediate, universal, and enormous difference in perceived performance. Even if an individual app isn't multi-proc aware, the system is - and because most of us run many apps/processes at once, the effect is immensely noticeable. If you like to buy after a transformative increase in performance - and we all do - this was it for Apple laptops. By comparison, until the 4/8GB RAM ceiling becomes an impediment to general users, the benefits of 64-bit-ness are going to be only very gradual and very subtle.

 

[ghstmars]

Merom is not being delayed. It is on track to being delivered in Q3 '06 ( industry insiders say September ) with an update to the current chipset, so it could take advantage of its 64 bitness, napa 64. What is being delayed is the new chipset Santa Rosa, which updates the bus to 800mhz, and will incorporate all specs of wifi b/a/g/n and wimax. support for a more advance integrated graphic card, and support for hdmi. The reason for the delayed, late in Q1 '07, was due to pressures from oem that wanted more time with the old chipset so they could make $$$. Intel is fully prepared to introduced merom and santa rosa in Q3 '06 when they introduce all the new desktop replacements. as a matter a fact Merom is just a drop 'n replacement of Yohan ( Core Duo ). Sorry for my long post. especially my 1st post.

 

[gusto5]

And that is Yonah, btw

 

[ryanh888]

questions

So I'm one of those people wondering if I should buy the current MBP or wait for the Merom chip to come out... and I have just a few questions.

I'm not the most computer savvy person in the world, but... If you buy the Merom (64 bit) MBP's when they come out will you be able to run apps made for 32 bit? Or will you have to wait for the 64 bit apps to come out? If the 32 bit apps can run on 64 bit machine, will they be slower than on a 32 bit machine?

Do you guys think Rev 1 of the new 64 bit MBP's will have pretty significant problems?

 

[ryanh888]

questions

accidentally submitted that last one unfinished....

but yea... I'm just so confused. I can wait to purchase a new computer untill around Christmas of 2006. Do you guys think Merom MBP's will be out by then?

I'm also wondering why Apple would release their new flagship 17 inch MBP's with yonah so close to the date Merom is supposed to be coming out... This leads me to believe that the Merom chips may be delayed.... I dont know... what do you guys think??

Thanks a lot for any help you guys can give!

 

[powerbook911]

So I'm one of those people wondering if I should buy the current MBP or wait for the Merom chip to come out... and I have just a few questions.

I'm not the most computer savvy person in the world, but... If you buy the Merom (64 bit) MBP's when they come out will you be able to run apps made for 32 bit? Or will you have to wait for the 64 bit apps to come out? If the 32 bit apps can run on 64 bit machine, will they be slower than on a 32 bit machine?

Do you guys think Rev 1 of the new 64 bit MBP's will have pretty significant problems?

The 32 bit applications will run fine.

No, I do not think rev1 will have significant problems. It is going to be basically the current MBP, with the better chips. Apple will have already learned a lot from the MBP by then. Furthermore, Apple is already familiar with 64 bit stuff, from the G5s.

Now, in my opinion, Merom is an improvement, but it isn't some radical earth shattering improvement.

 

[^squirrel^]

I know it's not a major improvment, but i'm sure most of you like me, if you bought a MBP in July/August and then in September they release the Merom at the same price you'd be pretty ticked off.

I still think if you can hold out, then wait until Setpember. I know its hard as i'm doing the same thing but it'll all be worth it in the end.

 

[ntsapp3]

...

.

 

[^squirrel^]

I just wanted to bump this thread as I've been reading on an Asus forum that they probably won't get the Merom until Q4.

Do you think this will be the same for Apple or will they announce something at the developer conference in August?

If they are going to announce that their OS is going to be 64bit then surely they will want a machine that is 64bit capable.

 

[~Shard~]

If they are going to announce that their OS is going to be 64bit then surely they will want a machine that is 64bit capable.

And they will have one at WWDC when they announce the Conroe PowerMacs. Problem solved.

 

[Jowl]

A very intersting thread.

The outcome is, after changing my mind 4 during the thread, I'm going a ahead with my plan to purchase a Core Duo Mini for my media Computer. It's enough to play HD content that I have on hard drive for now. When 64 OS + Apps are common place, I'll upgrade to one with HD-DVD/Blu-ray and 64bit CPU.

Otherwise you're forever chasing Specs.

 

[firestarter]

Why are so many people hyperventilating about 64-bit chips? Yes, within a couple of years all CPUs will be 64-bit capable. But it's going to be years beyond that before there is any sort of universal benefit to running on 64-bit hardware, and more years before running such hardware becomes a requirement. Some simple guideposts:

1. The G5 was and still is Apple's only 64-bit CPU. PowerBooks have never been 64-bit. By definition, no Mac pros have ever done mobile 64-bit computing.
2. The only bits of OS X that are 64-bit-capable are the kernel/BSD components. You cannot, right now, create a 64-bit-aware GUI application. At all. The only 64-bit-aware apps are specialized (mostly scientific) apps that are command-line only. (Yes, some mathematical apps can tie into these command-line tools to make certain functions 64-bit-aware, but these hardly affect the general computing audience.)
3. Until Apple updates OS X to be 64-bit-aware throughout, and similarly updates XCode to compile 64-bit GUI apps, there will continue to be no 64-bit-aware GUI apps.
4. After Apple finishes #3, there will be a long delay while major software publishers wait until the next rev of their apps to recompile for 64-bit-ness. Think Intel transition all over again. How fast is that going, when the tools have been around for a year already? Adobe is waiting two years to release Intel-native apps. Expect as long of a delay for 64-bit-ness.
5. Even after all developers start compiling 64-bit-aware apps, it will be years longer before they drop support for 32-bit versions.

My back-of-the-envelope timeline would be that all of Apple's CPUs will be 64-bit by the end of 2007, at the earliest. Leopard *might* be through-and-through 64-bit-aware, and should be released by summer 2007. I would expect, then, that 64-bit apps will start appearing in late 2007 at the earliest. And that most apps won't be 64-bit-aware before the end of 2008. And, finally, that 32-bit compatibility won't be dropped for at least two years after that, around 2010.

So please, stop hyperventilating about whether the MBP is a "Yikes" or the CD is a dead end. The horizon for 64-bit apps making a realistic impact on most of our lives is so far off that it's almost absurd to be worrying about it now. The CoreDuo is a kick-ass chip, and the MBP is a kick-ass computer.

OK - a lot of what you say was correct from a G4 / G5 standpoint, but is plain wrong from an x86 standpoint.

G5 64 bitness was nice for extreme power users, because it let you use much more memory - and the point you make (that most folks wouldn't miss it) is true.

The x86 is different. In a lot of ways, the x86 is a seriously compromised design, with too few and too small a range of registers (very short term storage) in the CPU - this adversely affects performance. In developing 64bit instructions, AMD significantly boosted the number of registers available, and this provides a sizable speedup for everyday code (20% or more) in addition to providing the power-user-friendly big memory benefits.

So, 64bit is something Apple need to get on to ASAP on Intel, if they want to get the maximum speed out of upcoming Intel CPUs, and stay speed competative with 64 bit Vista.

 

[firestarter]

Hey there guys.I'm new here

So last january I purchased a new Powerbook G4 and a week later the MBP was announced.I decided I wasn't going to be betrayed in such a way so I returned my PB.

I waited for the MBP and after reading some reviews I got a bit scared about the problems and such.But they were fixed.I was decided to buy it.

But after hearing these news (and by now you are thinking "he's tech paranoid") I just stopped to think again since this is going to be my first very own computer and it has to last for a long time (5/6 years) :


Isn't the computer world bound to revolve around 64bit processing in the near future?I know new OSs will surely be 64bit and alot of applications and new games.

My problem isn't speed per se but not beeing able to run new software because I'm bound to 32 processing.


My question : I am doing the right thing right?Also do you think the new MBP with Merom processor will be released in 2007?Cause I'm desperate to get my hands on a computer but I don't wanna be dumb and then have to suffer by not getting full support as I should for the platform that I choose.

No - I think you should look at this a slightly different way...

Buying the very most expensive cutting edge stuff will never be a very cost effective way of working. 5/6 years is also a very long time to expect a computer to last.

Consider paying 2/3 of your budget for a lower spec model, then selling (Macs keep their value well) and buying again in 30 months. You'll end up with higher speed overall over that 5 year period, you shouldn't have to spend any more, and you won't need to be as paranoid about 'something big' coming out just after you've spent all your money.

Remember to budget for software and backup too...

 

[firestarter]

Finally, regarding the kick-ass-ness of the CoreDuo MBP - you need to keep in mind just what a big deal the move to dual cores is, especially for a laptop. Anyone who uses a dual-proc PowerMac can tell you that multiple CPUs makes a real, immediate, universal, and enormous difference in perceived performance. Even if an individual app isn't multi-proc aware, the system is - and because most of us run many apps/processes at once, the effect is immensely noticeable. If you like to buy after a transformative increase in performance - and we all do - this was it for Apple laptops. By comparison, until the 4/8GB RAM ceiling becomes an impediment to general users, the benefits of 64-bit-ness are going to be only very gradual and very subtle.

Check out SJL's post from a few pages back:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/2212077/

SJL explains why 64bit is a big deal in more detail than I do...

 

[^squirrel^]

And they will have one at WWDC when they announce the Conroe PowerMacs. Problem solved.

Cheeky

I really hope that they mention something about Merom. I'm going to hold out until Aug and then asses the situation. I'm not sure i could hold out any longer than Aug, but if they confirm the Merom for Sept then i could hold out until then.

Knowing Apple they like to keep things to them self until the last second. I'd like to think they would say something about the Merom, but knowing Apple they wont say anything!

Really dont want to part with £1800 on a MBP and then a few months later the Merom comes out.

 

[~Shard~]

Cheeky

Hey, what can I say, it's what I do.

I really hope that they mention something about Merom. I'm going to hold out until Aug and then asses the situation. I'm not sure i could hold out any longer than Aug, but if they confirm the Merom for Sept then i could hold out until then.

It will be interesting to see if they do or not. Apple hasn't really made a point in the past of referencing specific chip architectures, rather their computers themselves, so I'm not sure if they will really go out of their way to talk specifically about Merom. Guess we'll see...

Knowing Apple they like to keep things to them self until the last second. I'd like to think they would say something about the Merom, but knowing Apple they wont say anything!

I think this is the more likely scenario....

Really dont want to part with £1800 on a MBP and then a few months later the Merom comes out.

Welcome to the wonderful world of technology! Your machine will be obsolete before you buy it and there will always be something better coming along. Timing is not your friend when it comes to buying the latest technology.

Are you wanting the latest and greatest, or are you wanting Merom specifically? If you are wanting a Merom system specifically then your choice is pretty clear - wait for it. However if you're just waiting for the latest and greatest, you'll always be waiting. Might as well hold off until Penryn....

 

[macgeek2005]

What's Penryn?

And also, what is the diff between Merom and Yonah. Is it really that big a deal? What are the clock speeds of Merom?

 

[Photorun]

What's Penryn?

And also, what is the diff between Merom and Yonah. Is it really that big a deal? What are the clock speeds of Merom?

It's not so much clock speed but power consumption, which equates to better battery life, that and 64 bit... but 64 bit for now is a bit overrated, it's potential isn't fully realized yet and waiting around for just 64 bit would be foolhardy. It's not like when Merom comes out Yonah will be like the stone age. There's a difference but not massive. And remember a computer is a tool for the job, I know people still using G3 computers for basic tasks they do and it works for them. Buying something with a CoreDuo today, yeah, it's outdated the day you bought it, but it's not going to just quit working and it will do someone just fine for conceivably years of service.

 

[~Shard~]

It's not so much clock speed but power consumption, which equates to better battery life, that and 64 bit... but 64 bit for now is a bit overrated, it's potential isn't fully realized yet and waiting around for just 64 bit would be foolhardy. It's not like when Merom comes out Yonah will be like the stone age. There's a difference but not massive. And remember a computer is a tool for the job, I know people still using G3 computers for basic tasks they do and it works for them. Buying something with a CoreDuo today, yeah, it's outdated the day you bought it, but it's not going to just quit working and it will do someone just fine for conceivably years of service.

Well said, thanks for saving me some typing...

The only thing I'll add to that for macgeek2005's benefit (since he asked) is that Penryn is the 45nm successor to Merom. Now you know. Glad to be of service.

 

[macgeek2005]

Well said, thanks for saving me some typing...

The only thing I'll add to that for macgeek2005's benefit (since he asked) is that Penryn is the 45nm successor to Merom. Now you know. Glad to be of service.

ohhh so I better wait for the Penryn.

No, but seirously, I think i'll get a Merom (Rev C) MacBook Pro, (or will that be Rev B?). Better battery life is important to me.

 

[Photorun]

I'm sure there are one or two things, but i don't think i'll see a difference between a Dual Core Yonah and a Dual Core Merom in real life usage...

Bingo. You win a prize. But seriously, at first not much, little longer battery life, maybe a half a dock icon hop faster for a application launch, or on the 40 Photoshop filter tests (when it becomes native) it'll do it in 2:38 as opposed to 2:52 CoreDuo... but overall initially not that huge a difference. Not unlike when the Pentium4 came out it wasn't tremdously faster than the Pentium3. Until the actual coding of software is done to take full advantage of a chips architecture the speed increases are rather negligible. People looking to get a MBP or iMac or Mini can expect happy computing for a good while. Me personally, I'll be getting a MBP because I have to next month then eBay it in a year if Merom is the beeknees or if it's not this incredible leap maybe even longer while 64 bit starts getting built into things. Like someone else wisely pointed out too, unless Leopard takes advantage of 64 bit or better yet UNTIL it is released and only if it does, not to mention think about it, Adobe and all the others, day to day, a 32 bit isn't going to be crushed by a 64 bit computing experience for some time to come.

Buy now, be happy.

 

[~Shard~]

ohhh so I better wait for the Penryn.

Yep - don't get Yonah because Merom is coming. Oh, but don't get Merom because then Penryn will be coming. Oh, but don't get Penryn because...

Might as well just wait for the mythical Dunnington... Let me guess, you don't know what that is either...