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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,139
6,990
Full Windows 10 can run on ARM... if Apple switches macOS to ARM, I suspect there's going to be an avalanche of support for ARM rather than Intel behind that... does Intel have a future at that point?

How are servers going for Intel? I'd imagine ARM is making some inroads there and is going to accelerate if macOS goes ARM.
Their financial model is already in jeopardy considering it’s been underwritten by charging a premium for their tech because they’ve always been at least a cycle ahead of everyone else. Now that’s no longer the case, are they going to be able to continue charging that premium? I don’t think this is going to spell the end, but I think their absolute dominance is over and they’re going to be just one player in the industry going forward... from a consumer PoV that can only be a good thing
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,139
6,990
Well the article from SemiAccurate notes that it is a 10nm process that Intel had proposed that has been scrapped, so the two reports are not in themselves discongruous. Intel could be moving to a different 10nm process for Cannon Lake...
Most likely they are going to 10nm at a less ambitious density bump - they had aimed for 2.7x over 14nm, they’ve probably slashed that to 2x or less just to float themselves off the 14nm rock they’re stuck on...
 

StralyanPithecus

macrumors 6502
The latest ARM cores are quite complex and x86 CPUs are implemented using a RISC micro ops core since a long time.

Yeah, I agree with you, but still Intel silicons are more complex. The laws of Physics applies for everyone, not just Intel. When ARM will reach Intel complexity they will (they are in fact) running the same problems. Here is where parallel processing and quantum CPU (together with classic CPUs) can help build the future computers.
 
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cmChimera

macrumors 601
Feb 12, 2010
4,273
3,762
Full Windows 10 can run on ARM... if Apple switches macOS to ARM, I suspect there's going to be an avalanche of support for ARM rather than Intel behind that... does Intel have a future at that point?

How are servers going for Intel? I'd imagine ARM is making some inroads there and is going to accelerate if macOS goes ARM.
I think this will be interesting to watch. As Mac consumers, most of us are concerned about the transition from Intel to ARM if it occurs because of compatibility. However, I'm wondering at this point if Microsoft will just throw their support towards it too.

Such negativity. ARM is one thing, full fledge desktop processors are another.
This doesn't really seem to be true anymore when iPhones are beating Macbook Pros in benchmarks.
 
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code-m

macrumors 68040
Apr 13, 2006
3,638
3,398
A big point is the complexity of the silicon chip being build. More complex more lines between single gates and registers to be run, and that creates a lot of not wanted quantum tunneling talking (interference). The power of the ARM arch, and Intels mistake, is parallel processing which in part solves the problem, but as raw and brute force, Intel is still long ahead of others chip makers, at least in CPU's.

Carbon Nano Tubes are the future, does Intel or any other semiconductor company have a lab test model, or are their going to consider when the silicone wall hits their face. Curious.
 

Spock

macrumors 68040
Jan 6, 2002
3,417
7,239
Vulcan
I’m starting to think Apple should switch to ARM for the Mac and just merge iOS and MacOS, AppleOS.
 

StralyanPithecus

macrumors 6502
Carbon Nano Tubes are the future, does Intel or any other semiconductor company have a lab test model, or are their going to consider when the silicone wall hits their face. Curious.
I left Intel some time ago, and even if I knew I wouldn’t have the right to say it, since NDA in place. But the way Intel works, is to have several developing lines, with isolated teams in different countries working. So carbon nanotubes are a good option for the middle time but the big future is Quantum cpu’s doing the parallel work together with classic CPUs.

To be clear, I like ARM architecture too
 

redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,419
8,841
Colorado, USA
I’m starting to think Apple should switch to ARM for the Mac and just merge iOS and MacOS, AppleOS.
Here's what a lot of Mac users don't want to see, one OS for both desktop and touch. This has been Microsoft's approach with Windows 10, and has resulted in an experience that works on, but doesn't feel optimized for both platforms.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,139
6,990
It’s a complex situation, but a big part of it is transistor density, for ages Intel have been a node ahead of anyone else, so at best TSMCs 10nm would have equal density to Intel’s 14nm. Now that the competition is getting more than a cycle ahead they’re beginning to pull away on this metric, which is a big factor underlying Intel’s superlative single core performance. Brian Krzanich said this was a big part of the issue with their 10nm plans - they aimed for a 2.7x density increase over 14nm and couldn’t make it work. I expect they’ve now binned that and are working on just porting the 14nm chips over to a 10nm process just to get moving again
 

oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
5,977
13,989
This doesn't really seem to be true anymore when iPhones are beating Macbook Pros in benchmarks.

Benchmarks rarely tell the whole story. They're a good way to compare two chips that are nearly identical but for one difference (it isolates the effect of that one difference), but they lose utility when comparing two chips that a lot of differences. There are just too many differences between x86/64 and ARM that comparing benchmarks is pretty much useless.

One thing is benchmarks don't really tell the whole story for software/hardware optimization. For example, Intel has virtualization optimization built-in their chips, something called Intel VT-x (I think AMD has an equivalent called AMD-v or something). If software is written to take advantage of it, it makes virtualizing other OSs though VM or Docker way more efficient and faster - nearly native speeds are possible. As far as I know, ARM doesn't have anything like that, and that huge advantage isn't reflected in any speed score benchmark.
 

code-m

macrumors 68040
Apr 13, 2006
3,638
3,398
I left Intel some time ago, and even if I knew I wouldn’t have the right to say it, since NDA in place. But the way Intel works, is to have several developing lines, with isolated teams in different countries working. So carbon nanotubes are a good option for the middle time but the big future is Quantum cpu’s doing the parallel work together with classic CPUs.

To be clear, I like ARM architecture too

I read you ;)

Good to know. You may find this interesting on Quantum computing.
 

T_OVEN

macrumors newbie
Oct 22, 2018
2
1
Intel is not gonna cry by loosing Apple, is a very small customer for them...as a former Intel eng. I know the hardship of building x64 architecture chips on anything smaller than 12 nm. We are talking about playing with single atoms almost...
[doublepost=1540230559][/doublepost]

arm architecture, simpler than x64. That kind of architecture Intel is able to fit in 5 nm long time ago...It's not the same to build a car than a big commercial plane.
1. There was a day that Intel almost got their SOC in the first IPAD. It didn't cost them big money losing that deal. However the fun started after all the money went into A-chip and later TSMC became Apple sole chip manufacturer resulted in quick maturing in 7nm.
2. TSMC and AMD already have 7nm x64 Zen2 chips in production and releasing Q1 next year.
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,139
6,990
Benchmarks rarely tell the whole story. They're a good way to compare two chips that are nearly identical but for one difference (it isolates the effect of that one difference), but they lose utility when comparing two chips that a lot of differences. There are just too many differences between x86/64 and ARM that comparing benchmarks is pretty much useless.

One thing is benchmarks don't really tell the whole story for software/hardware optimization. For example, Intel has virtualization optimization built-in their chips, something called Intel VT-x (I think AMD has an equivalent called AMD-v or something). If software is written to take advantage of it, it makes virtualizing other OSs though VM or Docker way more efficient and faster - nearly native speeds are possible. As far as I know, ARM doesn't have anything like that, and that huge advantage isn't reflected in any speed score benchmark.
Benchmarks are a good way of comparing the amount of work two chips can get done in a certain time full stop though - that’s how they’re designed to work. What you say about software optimisation is undoubtedly true, but then Intel will never beat Apple on that, software-hardware integration is Apple’s tour de force.
 
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Antony Newman

macrumors newbie
May 26, 2014
19
14
UK
Intel’s very high density ‘10nm’ has been killed off.

Intel’s new less-dense ~12nm (which they are still going to call 10nm) is still ‘on track’ for 2020.

AJ
 
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Spock

macrumors 68040
Jan 6, 2002
3,417
7,239
Vulcan
Here's what a lot of Mac users don't want to see, one OS for both desktop and touch. This has been Microsoft's approach with Windows 10, and has resulted in an experience that works on, but doesn't feel optimized for both platforms.

But we aren’t talking about Microsoft, I think Apple could pull it off. I’m not saying I would like it but it might get us more frequent hardware updates for the Mac.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,495
11,155
How can one compare ARM to x86-64 CPUs?

These are in totally different league.

Their goal is the same. ARM mobile having desktop performance while x86-64 desktop having more mobile qualities like always-on and better power efficiency. It's not a matter of if but when the first company will get there first and so far it seems like ARM Qualcomm Snapdragon on Windows 10 has the edge.
 
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