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Intel Switch sucks -REALLY
- Thread starter Danzsupreme
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Danzsupreme said:
You may want to watch the keynote. OS X runs on both intel and PPC. Also, the major software players are running thier code on a universal binary, o what's the problem?
Obsolete computers.. That's my favorite...
If people expected the same thing out of their clothes like they bought computers, they would expect their 5 year old wardrobe to look in style today!..
If people expected the same thing out of their clothes like they bought computers, they would expect their 5 year old wardrobe to look in style today!..
apple could solve all the transition problems that customers have with the switch by releasing imac g5's with a dvi input.
then you have a decent mac fully compatible with todays software.
if down the road a program is released that won't run on a g5 you can always buy a mac mini (or a intel power mac).
but you would protect your investment in the imac because the screen is always usable and all your old software will run forever.
at least that would make me buy an imac in a heartbeat.
my 2 cents.
then you have a decent mac fully compatible with todays software.
if down the road a program is released that won't run on a g5 you can always buy a mac mini (or a intel power mac).
but you would protect your investment in the imac because the screen is always usable and all your old software will run forever.
at least that would make me buy an imac in a heartbeat.
my 2 cents.
Why did you have to get rid of the LC II? In 1995 when the 8500 was released you could still run System 7.x on both an 8500 and LC II. But the 8500 was some 30 times faster than an LC II. And pretty much all your software (unless it required System 6, which never ran on an LC II anyways) should have worked great on an 8500.Danzsupreme said:
And the G3 didn't make the 604 based systems obsolete. It was the G4 (and Altivec specific apps) started the slide of those systems.
The new Intel based systems are going to be running Mac OS X v10.4. And 10.5 will be able to run on PowerPC systems.
What OS are you running on your PowerBook?
And for the record, it is you that you should be mad at, not Apple.
If you are chasing the latest and greatest, then it is you that is forcing you to constantly upgrade, not Apple.
So?
I am typing this on a 1998 PowerBook G3 (Wallstreet) which has been my primary system for years. It has Mac OS X v10.2 installed with all native apps and it just works. I have no crashes (last three uptimes: 93 days, 231 days, 133 days) and it is never in need of repair.
And why would you hold this HP laptop up as comparison? Is it running Windows XP or any of the latest and greatest software?.
What it shows is that you have settled with software that your system can handle and therefore that system is just as good (except in your case where it sounds awful) at running that software as it was the day the system was new.
And why have you settled with that system?
I use an IBM ThinkPad from 1997 for all my mobile computing needs (my PowerBook is too import for my work to take with me for daily use). It never, ever, crashes (Of course it has been running Apple's Rhapsody most of the time I've owned it and has never run Windows in that time) and has never needed repair (even though it takes the more of a physical beating than any other system I own).
Again, why would you settle on this HP Laptop? You can't stop yourself from buying the latest and greatest Macs, but you couldn't take a little of that addiction and spread it around to other areas of computing?
Well, at least you don't have a 1998 era Gateway laptop.
Okay, honest...
In three years, if you stop chasing the latest and greatest of everything, the system you have today will be as good for you then as it is now.
And in three years, most of the software will still run great on a system bought today. So even if you keep your cravings mildly in check, you can still keep up to date on many areas.
As long as we are being honest, you are a junky. You are a computer junky. It even that, you are an Apple computer junky (because if you can settle with that crappy HP laptop, then you aren't a general computer junky).
And it is not Apple's fault that you can't be satisfied with what you have.
I still use a Quadra 950 in my workflow, that is a system that is 13 years old. I still use a 7500 in my work flow, that is a 10 year old system. I still use a 8100 in my work flow, that is an 11 year old system. And my primary system is my PowerBook which is going to be 7 years old in September.
And not only do they run great, they run better today than when they were factory new. Why? They have better software and have had hardware upgrades.
Considering all this, lets look at what you said at the beginning of your post...
To be clear, you should be pissed. Because you know what you are going to do.
But more to the point, you should have been pissed before the announcement... because even if Apple hadn't changed from PowerPC to Intel, newer systems were still on their way, and your compulsion to buy the latest and greatest would have sent you back soon no matter what.
You want a system that will last 10 years?
Learn to love what you have and stop chasing the latest and greatest of everything.
Danzsupreme said:
Ummmmm, I'm not sure how you can say it's still running strong given that it's failing you so much. The iMac I bought in 1999 is running great, although I did get a larger HDD. It even is running OS X and it will probably continue to run strong well past the macintel introductions. Sure it doesn't support some things like iSight but for basic surfing it can't be beat.
I think that comparing the early days of consumer computing to today doesn't quite cut it. Software is much longer lasting and is easier to port to different platforms these days and unless you're in need of the latest and greatest the moment it appears, well...
Also, the naysayers are forgetting that ms is going to be introducing longhorn at some point in 07 or 08 and your HP will definitely be useless by then but G3s will still be supported by Apple for a few years after that.
I am typing this on a 1998 PowerBook G3 (Wallstreet) which has been my primary system for years. It has Mac OS X v10.2 installed with all native apps and it just works. I have no crashes (last three uptimes: 93 days, 231 days, 133 days) and it is never in need of repair.
Racer your the man, but my point is I wanna be like you and 7 years down the road be typing on powerbook, that will still be running strong when it hits its 10th bday. My 8500 and 7500 run great too today, but there is no way that I can do anything really productive on them unless the software I originally have on it and forget about internet they are just not made for todays browsers. This is fine, but 7 years after I bought them i couldnt not use them (not even chasing the latest and greatest). They changed the chip and everything has to be a G3 processor or higher thats why your wallstreet rocks, Bondi imacs, etc rock too as long as you got enough memory i them they will.
I am just saying, what happends when the boxes say Intel M processor or higher. 7 years down the road, yea i can use my machine but my Word files will not open on current machines, Photoshop files, illustrator I wont be able to get new versions of stuff.
Racer your the man, but my point is I wanna be like you and 7 years down the road be typing on powerbook, that will still be running strong when it hits its 10th bday. My 8500 and 7500 run great too today, but there is no way that I can do anything really productive on them unless the software I originally have on it and forget about internet they are just not made for todays browsers. This is fine, but 7 years after I bought them i couldnt not use them (not even chasing the latest and greatest). They changed the chip and everything has to be a G3 processor or higher thats why your wallstreet rocks, Bondi imacs, etc rock too as long as you got enough memory i them they will.
I am just saying, what happends when the boxes say Intel M processor or higher. 7 years down the road, yea i can use my machine but my Word files will not open on current machines, Photoshop files, illustrator I wont be able to get new versions of stuff.
That is the price of technology and working with it.Danzsupreme said:
I'm assuming that you make a living using your Mac... with every new software upgrade for the apps that you use, the older ones fall further and further behind. This is true in both the Mac and Windows worlds. It is a computing fact of life.
Now how often you are forced to upgrade depends on these factors. I just upgraded one client from 9.2.2 to 10.3.9 so that she could deal with newer QuarkXPress files, this also pushed her to get a newer version of Suitcase, and now she is eying the new Creative Suite 2 because she still needs Acrobat and she doesn't have a Mac OS X native version of Illustrator.
If you use Word as your main app, yes, the files will open on new system 3-7 years from now. Will you be able to open files from Word of that period... most likely not. Microsoft and other software venders change the file formats to make older apps obsolete. In fact your current apps is going to be seen as a threat to the future versions, specially if you (and other people) are happy with them and feel no reason to upgrade.
As for my PowerBook, this is a perfect example of why Apple changed the design of PowerBook after the PowerBook G3 line.
I have a G4/500 processor in my PowerBook. Apple made it easy to upgrade that. I have an 8 GB hard drive which took me less than 15 minutes to install replacing the original 4 GB drive. But the 4 GB drive is still in my PowerBook... in the bay where I originally had my battery (which died a couple years ago). And I swapped out the original CD-ROM drive with a CDRW drive in the other bay.
My PowerBook is an nightmare for Apple. Most PC users replace a system every 18 months (it is why the market share is so much higher than the installed user base of PC users), but the average Mac user replace a system every 3-5 years... which effects Apple's market share. And of course a system like mine is only now starting to push me towards buying a newer system (end of summer is what I'm thinking right now).
But this is not just about Apple making money on us. Market share effects how developers make applications. There is very little tracking of installed users, so everyone uses market share to judge the amount of users. If Apple's market share drops, developers think that is what is going to happen to their software sales.
This is why Apple made post-PowerBook G3 systems to hard to upgrade... at all.
Lets say that you needed a bigger hard drive. As I said before, I can drop one in my system in about 15 minutes. How long do you think it would take on your 12" PowerBook?
I stopped providing hardware support for PowerBook G4s and iBooks after replacing the hard drive in a 12" iBook which took me 3 hours. It would be cheeper to sell the system and buy a newer one than to upgrade the hard drive.
This is by design.
But the thing is, your PowerBook is still going to be worth a lot (assuming you take care of it) when you replace it in a few years. Why? Because there are going to be people who want to upgrade there hardware from something quite a bit older who don't want to replace any of their existing software (which would either run the same on the new Intel systems or slower).
For you, the fact that these transitions can take 5 to 8 years, means that the value of your PowerBook is insured. Just like my Quadra 950 was still quite valuable even after the PowerMacs came out.
The only reason for you to be upset with any system you own is if it doesn't pay for itself.
But this transition isn't going to effect you or your PowerBook anytime in the near future.
Danzsupreme said:
Ah, yes. The familiar technology buyer's whine: "I have purchased! No more innovation allowed! Introducing new things after I purchase is greed, which I somehow consider a legitimate criticism of a business that needs revenue like I need oxygen."
Oh, and ten years ago you would have bought a Pentium 133 running Windows 3.1 or a 60MHz 601 running System 7.5. You'd get laughed at trying to give these away to a middle school. You could still use them profitably if you were really inclined. That's up to you. Just don't blame the industry for not stopping and revolving around your buying decision.
In particular, don't go whining about your obsolescense at the hands of the Intel switch when Apple's clearly put a really large amount of effort into trying to prevent exactly the things you're whining about. If you'd checked your facts first, you would have saved yourself from this Chicken Little routine you're doing.
Gelfin said:
nice&helpful post. but i don't think that he was whining or so. he is just concerned that due to the switch his systems will be outdated in 2 years instead of five (or even ten). and that rather because the software will not support G4/G5 in the future than the processors being to slow.
i think Danzsupreme's concern is warranted and i think that is what is going to happen.
the only thing is even if apple would stay with the PPC's the systems would be outdated in 3 years. because by then software would expect you to have multicore-multiprocessor G5's, 64 bit systems, new graphics card, h.264 hardware decoders or something else. so the switch doesn't make it that much worse.
the time of steady development is over (for the moment). i think right now we are at a point where systems are only good for three years because technology in hard- and software changes too fast. after that new software won't support your systems anymore.
but again this would also happen (in a similar way) without the switch. and there is nothing you can do about it.
the only bright side is that the systems (from the ibooks up to the power macs) are fast enough to handle every standard task easily. the software meets all standard needs easily. so you won't crave for a faster system just because rotating an image takes 5 minutes.....
my 2 cents.
I think Apple should run a purchase for current Macs
I posted a reply in another thread. Overall, I think that Apple should run a promotion to promotoe current Mac sales.
Here's the link the my post:
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1530133#post1530133
I posted a reply in another thread. Overall, I think that Apple should run a promotion to promotoe current Mac sales.
Here's the link the my post:
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1530133#post1530133
amac4me said:
I'm sure they will offer promotions of some kind, they usually have several going on at any given time.
(RE: Linked post)
I do *not* however, think Apple will offer a trade-in/trade-up program. It's not cost-effective for them to do in the least.
I can live with outdated technology. Powerbook will still look like a piece of art after 3 or 5 years. After all, I can still use it as a portable dvd and music player 5 years from now. Assuming CPU, hard drive, and battery still works after 5 years. If it breaks before then, well, fix it or replace it...that's just life.
Things happen that you never expect.
If it breaks before then, well, fix it or replace it...that's just life.Things happen that you never expect.
Financially it doesn't suck...
If sticking with IBM would mean coughing up $100 or more for each machine now, just so you have the chance of buying it at full price in the future.
And then doing it again it every two years.
Do you think Apple is going to find a million or two people willing to keep PowerPC alive every two years?
Especially since they won't get a discount for keeping PowerPC alive.
Apple is in this position and doesn't want to fund CPUs anymore... But maybe you can start a petition and get several million people together willing to do it for Apple instead.
Apple took the money (actually probably more) and invested it in a switch and decided to end the two year cycle of IBM/Freescale extorting money for a new CPU.
If sticking with IBM would mean coughing up $100 or more for each machine now, just so you have the chance of buying it at full price in the future.
And then doing it again it every two years.
Do you think Apple is going to find a million or two people willing to keep PowerPC alive every two years?
Especially since they won't get a discount for keeping PowerPC alive.
Apple is in this position and doesn't want to fund CPUs anymore... But maybe you can start a petition and get several million people together willing to do it for Apple instead.
Apple took the money (actually probably more) and invested it in a switch and decided to end the two year cycle of IBM/Freescale extorting money for a new CPU.
Danzsupreme said:
Well, my 8500 only 'lasted' 2 years, as I got it mid-cycle before the G3 revolution. But I managed to use it for years afterwards. It sucks, but that's the way technology works. It's obsolete as soon as you buy it (slight overdramatization
)It is potentially a lot of work if their app IS NOT being compiled using Xcode already. Even Jobs admits it's an unknown amount of work. See my other post at https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1514143#post1514143. Besides compiling, you've double the test hit now... see my comments later.James L said:
If you'd like to see the docs on porting CodeWarrior projects to Xcode, see http://developer.apple.com/document...e/migration_overview/chapter_1_section_1.html. Even if your software is on Xcode already, you will likely hit some issues porting. You can read the 106 page doc at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/universal_binary/universal_binary.pdf.
Back to the first point, even Microsoft isn't clear how much work it'll take to make the switch from CodeWarrior to Xcode to then build universal binaries. From http://news.com.com/Developers+get+taste+of+Intel-based+Macs/2100-1016_3-5739589.html:
-begin quote-
"But, if developers used tools from Metrowerks, they must first bring their code over to Apple's tools and then begin the work of tweaking the software for Intel's chips.
Microsoft is among those in that last camp. Both Virtual PC and Office for Mac were developed in Carbon, using tools from Metrowerks. Microsoft said it doesn't know how much work it has ahead of itself.
"That's one of the main things our developers are looking at," said Scott Erickson, group product manager for Microsoft's Macintosh..."
-end quote-
Besides just compiling, you need to ensure that your app works properly and well, if you're running on a brand new platform w/an OS for x86 that's not finished yet, that OS is going to be more of a moving target (in terms of new seeds being dropped) than a shipping OS. You've pretty much got to fully test your app on x86 and since you've had to switch compiler versions (even if you went just from Xcode 2.0 to 2.1), you should pretty thoroughly test on PPC.
Moving forward, you will always have to test on both until you feel it's wise to drop support for PPC.
You can also read some developer comments at http://www.macintouch.com/macintel05.html .