Intel to Supply Apple with Special High-End Haswell Processors for MacBook Pro

[eltaurus]

what?

The 650m tested is the one in the current gen rMBP, while the 5200 iris pro is the proposed one in the next revision. It is exactly relevant to everything discussed in this thread.

sir you defy the logic/common sense .. whats next arm processor in MBP ? then by your logic we should compare it with iphone ?

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This simply does not have to be the case.

To talk between the CPU and dGPU and vRAM, traffic has to go over an external bus.

If all of that can be integrated on a single die, so long as the resources are spent, the communications can be WAY faster.

The only issue so far is that intel and the rest haven't been willing to spend the resources on GPU on the processor. But the demand for actual CPU resources is just not there these days, its all about GPU.

If you think I'm talking crap, just look what happened to external math co proessors, external MMUs, external L2 and L3 CPU cache and external memory controllers. They're all on the CPU die now because it is faster.

Until recently, intel hasn't bothered to really try to build a proper GPU and haven't spent the die area and transistors on it (which is why their GPUs have been, to be blunt, crap).

Now they've decided to focus on it, AMD and Nvidia should be scared.

you might be right. but still Nvidia & AMD gpu's are powerful & PRO need it.. & I am not that in-depth into bus speed & all .. I talk on real world performance which i see daily.

 

[mcarling]

MANY professional programs/plug ins rely on an DGPU to actually work.

Please list these "MANY professional programs/plug-ins" which run fine on a 2012 15" rMBP (because it has a dGPU) but which do not run at all on a 2012 13" rMBP (which does not have a dGPU).

 

[eltaurus]

No because the 780M will never be in any MBP. You compare it to what will likely be in what you're comparing against which is nVidia's mid range. It's not like Apple would be removing some graphics powerhouse it's just a 650

Why (apple is wrong at this point).. Plus I put 780m just for comparison reason. Like if apple update a MBP .. it will not put 650m like old gen .. they should update it to 680 / 720 / 750 / 780 (whatever).

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Please list these "MANY professional programs/plug-ins" which run fine on a 2012 15" rMBP (because it has a dGPU) but which do not run at all on a 2012 13" rMBP (which does not have a dGPU).

Adobe after effects ( mercury engine )

C4D ( turbulence FD)

BMD resolve

these are only few PRO examples..

 

[Evil Spoonman]

Adobe after effects ( mercury engine )

C4D ( turbulence FD)

BMD resolve

these are only few PRO examples..

- Mercury Engine from Adobe is CUDA-based. Only works on Nvidia GPUs. Will not work on AMD or Intel GPUs. (As of Premier Creative Cloud, Mercury supports OpenCL as well.)
- C4D's 3rd party Turbulence FD plug-in is also CUDA-based. Nvidia-only.
- BMD Resolve works fine on Intel GPUs, it uses the OpenCL API.

- These DO work fine without a GPU present, they are just slower.


You've so far convinced me that I should buy an Nvidia GPU if I want to use the first two pieces of software. Which ironically means I shouldn't buy a Mac Pro.

 

[Menneisyys2]

U

ME TOO! my late 2008 doesn't like my discrete graphics either anymore.

A very common problem in the mid-2009 17" MBP's too - also mine.

 

[aiom]

Also...and please correct me if I'm wrong...last year Apple completely re-engineered the MBP internals to have those two fans and air intakes. If they ditched the dedicated GPU, wouldn't it have made that whole design pointless as they would only need one fan? Surely Apple built that design for the long term, not just one generation of devices.

Maybe then only the classic MBP gets the Haswell (which I'd prefer since the classic model isn't that gimped down as the retina)

 

[eltaurus]

Maybe you don't care about battery life, but I know that some/many professional users do.

Yes i do care about battery when i am browsing internet / watching videos But when i am actually PRO using 3d apps /rendering .. battery won't last 30mins so then apple should remove everything and just give car battery

So what legitimises what you do as "Pro" over what somebody else does? Income quantity? The amount you stress the hardware? It is absolutely ridiculous to say that just because somebody edits videos they do not qualify as a professional user who is part of the addressable market. Or somebody who writes in Word and sends emails is not a professional. What you said was bad and you should feel bad.

Yes I know it will piss some people. But here is a thing there is logic behind this. I agree there are PROs in every field let take example. You are a professional writer / amateur writer you don't need really powerful PC to write stuff write.

second you are PRO Photographer / video editor still little bit of retouching & just cut copy paste video clip isn't that hard or resouce heavy (until you are working on 4K (raw/uncompressed) footage from RED / BMD)

But when you are actually PRO in Graphic Field.. 3d animation / simulation / VFX then you really need powerful GPU/CPU combo. ( you are not if you open 3d app & draw a cube /sphere and move it & render it in crappy quality)

That is a horrible comparison. A 780M is a completely different animal than an Iris Pro or a GT 650M. It's somewhat difficult to compare in a balanced/weighted manner. Generally speaking the metric is performance per watt.

The GTX 780M is a 100W chip, the GT 650M is around 45W, and the entire Haswell chip is 47W. However, this is complicated because the Haswell chip contains a lot of other crap such as VRMs, and an entire i7 CPU. There is also a lot of dynamic clocking going on under that TDP, and the TDP itself is a little bit elastic these days. So we'll be generous and say that the Iris Pro GT3e consumes 30 of those Watts.

That would mean GT3e is 15% slower than a stock 650M, but uses 30% less power. Which would mean the Intel architecture is more efficient than the Nvidia architecture. This all scales pretty evenly with the 750M which is apparently a 50W part.

Anyways, the point is you clearly lack basic computer understanding, so as a pro you should know when to opt out of a discussion.

exactly .. its a animal and we PRO need animal like that to work or sometime play crysis & iGPU to just browse internet .. therefore i said before just do us PRO a favour and buy MBA / ipad ... you don't need more then that

 

[TMay]

- Mercury Engine from Adobe is CUDA-based. Only works on Nvidia GPUs. Will not work on AMD or Intel GPUs.
- C4D's 3rd party Turbulence FD plug-in is also CUDA-based. Nvidia-only.
- BMD Resolve works fine on Intel GPUs, it uses the OpenCL API.

- These DO work fine without a GPU present, they are just slower.


You've so far convinced me that I should buy an Nvidia GPU if I want to use the first two pieces of software. Which ironically means I shouldn't buy a Mac Pro.

Actually, the Mercury Engine works with OpenCL fine, just that only Photoshop CC and Premier Pro CC are available today. Oh, and OpenCL should work with any OpenCL capable hardware, which means in theory that the Mercury Engine would work with ARM.

 

[Ryth]

Why (apple is wrong at this point).. Plus I put 780m just for comparison reason. Like if apple update a MBP .. it will not put 650m like old gen .. they should update it to 680 / 720 / 750 / 780 (whatever).

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Adobe after effects ( mercury engine )

C4D ( turbulence FD)

BMD resolve

these are only few PRO examples..

Plus VC's plug-ins which require AMD or Nvidia.

And also just basic render times, etc.

People seem to forget that the MBP's were way back in the day not used by many people at all but PRO photosgraphers/editors/graphics/3d people and it's only recently in years past that many other industries have jumped into using these machines.

So when we're talking PROs, we are talking about the top of the line users in these fields that need a dGPU because of their workload, type of program and requirement from plug-ins.

exactly .. its a animal and we PRO need animal like that to work or sometime play crysis & iGPU to just browse internet .. therefore i said before just do us PRO a favour and buy MBA / ipad ... you don't need more then that

Exactly. I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend for many that PROs in some fields do not come close to the requirements needed in the MBPr for other PROs.

 

[eltaurus]

- Mercury Engine from Adobe is CUDA-based. Only works on Nvidia GPUs. Will not work on AMD or Intel GPUs.
- C4D's 3rd party Turbulence FD plug-in is also CUDA-based. Nvidia-only.
- BMD Resolve works fine on Intel GPUs, it uses the OpenCL API.

- These DO work fine without a GPU present, they are just slower.


You've so far convinced me that I should buy an Nvidia GPU if I want to use the first two pieces of software. Which ironically means I shouldn't buy a Mac Pro.

add foundry Mari .. octance render .. fire maxwell render.. maybe zbrush and so may other (PRO use them so it matters even if they are 3rd party plugin / softwares)

we don't need them to work just fine (when there is a tech that will make them work amazing even in a laptop then we should get it).

For sure i will buy Mac Pro .. and powerful MBP is a portable workstation for PRO .. when its time to render animation even single MAC PRO isn't enough we have to use render farm ( so by your logic I should even buy MAC PRO i should buy a render farm )

yeah i know its CUDA based.

 

[HurryKayne]

what?

The 650m tested is the one in the current gen rMBP, while the 5200 iris pro is the proposed one in the next revision. It is exactly relevant to everything discussed in this thread.

No it is not.Next Iris Gpu must be compared to 650m successor,
the only reason this its done its because we know nothing about 5200 "turbo-apple-edition"
while we know what its the 2012 MacBook Pro,this while we also know something about 7xx from Nvidia.
I understand that we all try to deal with the eventual Apple's decision to cut out the discrete Gpus..and i also hope that Apple will put out something that will make us forget all our fears..but seriously i don't think it will be able to do that..except trying to make believe that with some marketing..made in California,
this in my opinion would be wrong such as the fact to find the new Mac Pro not able to swap for new Gpus...
i don't grow money from the thin air..so i expect Apple to have more respect for me and my efforts while Apple plans something with the PRO label beside.
Iris 5200 or "5300 i see that good for a Quad 13 Retina...not for something more..important.
And no..3D its not just games..and no..while i can travel with my lap i can always plug it to have more power when i need at office.

 

[GermanyChris]

Why (apple is wrong at this point).. Plus I put 780m just for comparison reason. Like if apple update a MBP .. it will not put 650m like old gen .. they should update it to 680 / 720 / 750 / 780 (whatever).

----------



Adobe after effects ( mercury engine )

C4D ( turbulence FD)

BMD resolve

these are only few PRO examples..

It will at best get a 750..compare away to the 750 if it jerks your chain

 

[TMay]

Yes i do care about battery when i am browsing internet / watching videos But when i am actually PRO using 3d apps /rendering .. battery won't last 30mins so then apple should remove everything and just give car battery



Yes I know it will piss some people. But here is a thing there is logic behind this. I agree there are PROs in every field let take example. You are a professional writer / amateur writer you don't need really powerful PC to write stuff write.

second you are PRO Photographer / video editor still little bit of retouching & just cut copy paste video clip isn't that hard or resouce heavy (until you are working on 4K (raw/uncompressed) footage from RED / BMD)

But when you are actually PRO in Graphic Field.. 3d animation / simulation / VFX then you really need powerful GPU/CPU combo. ( you are not if you open 3d app & draw a cube /sphere and move it & render it in crappy quality)



exactly .. its a animal and we PRO need animal like that to work or sometime play crysis & iGPU to just browse internet .. therefore i said before just do us PRO a favour and buy MBA / ipad ... you don't need more then that

If you weren't so focussed on the sound of that voice in your head, you would do some reading and realize that IRIS Pro is probably better tuned to your "Pro" needs than a mid range dGPU like the 650M, and since Apple isn't going to put a high end dGPU in, that's what you need to compare.

Start with the Anandtech article:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

 

[eltaurus]

Plus VC's plug-ins which require AMD or Nvidia.

And also just basic render times, etc.

People seem to forget that the MBP's were way back in the day not used by many people at all but PRO photosgraphers/editors/graphics/3d people and it's only recently in years past that many other industries have jumped into using these machines.

So when we're talking PROs, we are talking about the top of the line users in these fields that need a dGPU because of their workload, type of program and requirement from plug-ins.



Exactly. I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend for many that PROs in some fields do not come close to the requirements needed in the MBPr for other PROs.

Yeah this is what pisses me off ... You might be a PRO lawyer / CEO / Manager / Secretary / Salesman but you are not actually PRO Graphic Designer

 

[TMay]

add foundry Mari .. octance render .. fire maxwell render.. maybe zbrush and so may other (PRO use them so it matters even if they are 3rd party plugin / softwares)

we don't need them to work just fine (when there is a tech that will make them work amazing even in a laptop then we should get it).

For sure i will buy Mac Pro .. and powerful MBP is a portable workstation for PRO .. when its time to render animation even single MAC PRO isn't enough we have to use render farm ( so by your logic I should even buy MAC PRO i should buy a render farm )

yeah i know its CUDA based.

The Mercury Engine is both Cuda and OpenCL capable. That's a fact.

 

[Ryth]

If you weren't so focussed on the sound of that voice in your head, you would do some reading and realize that IRIS Pro is probably better tuned to your "Pro" needs than a mid range dGPU like the 650M, and since Apple isn't going to put a high end dGPU in, that's what you need to compare.

Start with the Anandtech article:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

Agreed on the 650M, and I've emailed Apple many times saying we need a better mobile chip in there and one with at least 1GB on it.

Again look, if the applications and plug-ins re-write and re-code everything to work with this IRIS, fine, but right now, there are a lot of issues for many of us if Apple does this and the plug-ins, etc don't follow.

 

[eltaurus]

If you weren't so focussed on the sound of that voice in your head, you would do some reading and realize that IRIS Pro is probably better tuned to your "Pro" needs than a mid range dGPU like the 650M, and since Apple isn't going to put a high end dGPU in, that's what you need to compare.

Start with the Anandtech article:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

: face palm : .. read my other comments you will get my point

 

[4nNtt]

Okay this sounds like Apple is definitely looking to drop the dGPU.

Well if they could match the 650M performance that should be pretty amazing but will they be able to?


Interestingly, they did the same with the 650M. They actually overclocked it so it had the same performance as the 660M GTX. So ofcourse, they're not going to settle with just the Iris Pro.

Texture fill rate is slightly worse then 650M. Compute appears to be significantly better. For compute that isn't bandwidth limited, the Iris 5200 was performing more then 10 times better then the 650M. The Iris is certainly utilizing Intel's strengths in compute and this should be good for compute intensive apps like Adobe apps with mercury engine support, realtime codec conversion for video editing, or 3D ray tracing.

 

[Evil Spoonman]

Actually, the Mercury Engine works with OpenCL fine, just that only Photoshop CC and Premier Pro CC are available today. Oh, and OpenCL should work with any OpenCL capable hardware, which means in theory that the Mercury Engine would work with ARM.

That is true, but it's somewhat of a new development. The versions most people have today will likely be CUDA-only.

Still, that means if you own Premier CC you will be able to leverage your Intel IGP to do GPU rendering. Good news, everybody. (I'll add a footnote to my previous post, thanks for the update TMay.)

Photoshop's "Mercury Graphics Engine" isn't really the same thing as what Premier has. PS's GPU layer has worked with OpenCL since CS6. Which is also good news. In fact it works fine if I lock my 15" rMBP to the Intel IGP and run it. See attached...

 

[Ryth]

So what is the price drop if they ditch the dGPU?

Too many pages to read through to see if someone figured it out.

 

[4nNtt]

The Mercury Engine is both Cuda and OpenCL capable. That's a fact.

Sort of. Adobe is working on making it support both. Currently some functions (including critical ones for video editing) are only supported in CUDA. I'm sure Adobe is on a fast track to introduce feature parity between the two though.

 

[eltaurus]

The Mercury Engine is both Cuda and OpenCL capable. That's a fact.

I don't care to remember every bit .. I just need PRO component in a PRO naming LAPTOP

 

[aiom]

By all means you people talking about PRO... how can a 15" display be pro for a graphic designer anyways? The retina resolution is no excuse, only an eye cancer producer for this small display size. Nothing PRO about it.

If talking about PRO then with 17" and a 780m. Anything else is casual crap
#dealwithit

 

[deadwalrus]

Yes i do care about battery when i am browsing internet / watching videos But when i am actually PRO using 3d apps /rendering .. battery won't last 30mins so then apple should remove everything and just give car battery

Then you should get a desktop.

/thread

 

[HurryKayne]

Yeah this is what pisses me off ... You might be a PRO lawyer / CEO / Manager / Secretary / Salesman but you are not actually PRO Graphic Designer

Maybe with a better marketing they could satisfy the right users..

Ipad- Email,light Audio appz,games and social
Air..for Lawyer-Secretary-amateur web designer-light musicians on the go
13 retina..for Lawyer-Secretary-amateur web designer-light musician with sight needings such as with eagle eye..
15 Pro - serious musicians,serious web/graphic designer,serious architects,engineers,serious audio recording...serious..etc etc..without a serious house where to have a desktop or the need to be pro as more they can everywhere.