Intel Urged to Take 'Immediate Action' Amid Threats From Apple Silicon and AMD

[hugodrax]

Whats happening which is a long term slide was started with the ”plan to beat eps for that top level executive bonus”

engineers etc.. the real value that was the lifeblood of the company were ditched aside, treated poorly, etc.. to keep making that eps. Eating the seedcorn. Now you end up with a company filled with executive rentseekers etc..

you are seeing this across the us.

 

[hugodrax]

I think Intel is repeating history by deteriorating and stalling like Nokia back in the day. Another example of a company going from all to nothing.

they are not stalling by choice, when you get rid and make life miserable/ no longer reward the lifeblood of your company you will eventually cease to exist.

 

[Manzanito]

Except intel doesn’t compete.

Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. v. Intel Corp. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Intel Is Still Fighting the EU Over Its Anti-Competitive Actions Against AMD - ExtremeTech

Intel was hit with a $1.49B fine back in 2009 for anti-competitive practices. Eleven years later, the company is still fighting the verdict.

www.extremetech.com

Well, shame on intel for engaging in those practices. They very much deserve the several fines they got.

Anyway, the trend seems to be arm now, so maybe there’s not that much to loose if intel goes down. Still I’d much prefer that intel stays alive so that amd doesn’t become complacent.

 

[Piggie]

Intel’s arrogance will ultimately be their undoing.

Indeed, and yet at the same time one could also say the exact same thing about Apple.
The LARGER Apple becomes the most risk there is of this happening.
History always show us this, Amazing GIANTS of the past no-one would ever have dreamed would go down, did go down to be replaced by other new more dynamic companies.
There is no reason to think that, unlike all other past GIANTS Apple won't one day do the same route.
Only a fool would state that any company will continue to grow in their current form and last forever.

 

[Abazigal]

Indeed, and yet at the same time one could also say the exact same thing about Apple.
The LARGER Apple becomes the most risk there is of this happening.
History always show us this, Amazing GIANTS of the past no-one would ever have dreamed would go down, did go down to be replaced by other new more dynamic companies.
There is no reason to think that, unlike all other past GIANTS Apple won't one day do the same route.
Only a fool would state that any company will continue to grow in their current form and last forever.

Of course nothing lasts forever in the greater scheme of things. Even the sun is expected to eventually burn itself out if the scientists are to be believed, but none of us will be around long enough to witness that.

What irritates me isn't that Apple is doomed. It's that much of the tech gadget press seems to be driven by the desire for something new (and which is not already controlled / dominated by Apple), which then leads to breathless coverage of fads and flops (eg: smart speakers, folding phones, VR) while the real paradigm shifts by Apple (eg: wearables) are not getting the coverage and attention as they deserve. In short, people are falling over themselves to bash Apple for the sake of clicks and views, and there is little desire to actually understand how Apple works and thinks as a design-led company and objectively cover what they do.

Let's say that Apple will indeed be doomed in another 20 years. Someone parroting that refrain for the next 2 decades will eventually be right, but in the process of getting there, he will also have been proven wrong enough times that in the greater scheme of things, he's still so very wrong even if he does end up being correct in his prediction.

But yes, I do believe that Apple will go on to be insanely successful and profitable for a good long time to come.

 

[Atlantico]

That wouldn’t help too much, anyway, as it turns out. (Former AMD cpu designer here).

Still pushing that story, huh. OK, let's get the "former CPU designer" quote, you know.. to get the technical and clearly not just yet-another-normie analysis:

“digital content creators” will do fine with apple silicon. Much better than x86.

Oh.

 

[azentropy]

No, Apple is not bringing back the Xserve.

I wouldn't be so sure. Apple is always looking at new markets (or in this case returning to old markets). The advantages that AS holds over Intel and AMD now (performance per watt, low heat etc.) could also give them a significant advantage in the server market. I think you are going to see the trend with the M1 Mac mini's being used more and more there that may push Apple to realize they could capture a significant marketshare with a dedicated server hardware product.

 

[Piggie]

Of course nothing lasts forever in the greater scheme of things. Even the sun is expected to eventually burn itself out if the scientists are to be believed, but none of us will be around long enough to witness that.

What irritates me isn't that Apple is doomed. It's that much of the tech gadget press seems to be driven by the desire for something new (and which is not already controlled / dominated by Apple), which then leads to breathless coverage of fads and flops (eg: smart speakers, folding phones, VR) while the real paradigm shifts by Apple (eg: wearables) are not getting the coverage and attention as they deserve. In short, people are falling over themselves to bash Apple for the sake of clicks and views, and there is little desire to actually understand how Apple works and thinks as a design-led company and objectively cover what they do.

Let's say that Apple will indeed be doomed in another 20 years. Someone parroting that refrain for the next 2 decades will eventually be right, but in the process of getting there, he will also have been proven wrong enough times that in the greater scheme of things, he's still so very wrong even if he does end up being correct in his prediction.

But yes, I do believe that Apple will go on to be insanely successful and profitable for a good long time to come.

Personally I am beginning to think Apple might be getting close to the "Lumbering Giant" position.
Perhaps not yet, but give it another 10 years?

Without question they are suffering in some regards already due to their size, and don't really feel a very dynamic company anymore.
They feel like they dare not experiment, everything has to be very slow, very carefully thought out steps as they are unable to move fast.
A bit like a Aircraft Carrier.

That's not bad, but it makes them unable to be very exiting.
What I'd like to see, genuinely, and I don't know if this would be possible, would be for Apple to spin off a seperate division that was allowed to be more dynamic and take more risks.
So the Juggernaut Apple could continue to do what they do now, but the new "Apple Lite" could work on other things that the main company dare not venture into as there is too much at stake.

IT would be fun to see this. A bit like some of the far east phone makers, where you have the parent company which has to play it safe, but they have other sub company/s that are allowed to experiment, but without damaging the main company.

We all know Apple look at products on the market, Look at tech others invent, sprinkle a little of their own design and tweaks and then Boom a product arrives.
Then you wait a year and Boom version 2 fixing version 1 arrives.
Five years later we have an excellent mature version.

Meanwhile Apple-Lite could have released 20 things for customers to play with.
Many will fail, much fun will be had, and some good results learned.

It's always the same, Companies get too big and can't afford to take risks, or have much fun with designs.
I'm sure and Apple-Lite could have had quite a few Apple Watch designs out there by now.

 

[I7guy]

M1 is both deeper and wider than current Intel designs.

Deep and wide refers to the penetration into the market and not decoding capabilities or branch prediction.

Lost how? Apple’s laptop chip is beating Intel top end hardware. The 4 fastest computers in the world aren’t CISC. By what metric did CISC win?

And in the past tense, like “it’s over, go home, no reason to try anymore?”

Lost as in market share. Apple has a big enough hammer to force a square peg in a round hole. Headphone jack, power brick, 32 bit apps and that's the iphone, they forced a number of other changes in the Mac lineup over the years. If Intel did the same thing, they would be brought up on anti-trust charges. Intel silicon is laden with legacy functionality, that if they could remove, might be able to beat everyone else at this game.

But it's not happening. Intel doesn't produce niche chips in the general purpose computer market (ie non-mobile phone market), and they have to support what is out there.

That was the point. (and bring back another "Moore" was the other point)

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I had completely forgotten about Intel branded motherboards. You just triggered some happy nostalgia for those. They were always pretty decent in terms of quality (also Hackintosh support). Now, Asus is my current brand of choice. But if Intel returned to that space, I'd be all over 'em.

I tried other brands, and always came back to Intel boards. Drivers loaded, the systems seemed more stable, things worked. We built a system for a client and they had problems with the system. Eventually they just stuck it in a closet. I thing it was a 'gigabyte' board. Decades ago, but we couldn't get any support for it. I was surprised at the difficulty in getting support. We never really needed much support from Intel for their boards.

Yeah, I miss building my own computers. Aside from one HP thin client, and a server we inherited from a client, and the macs here, the other systems are self-built. Sad that 'DIY' is harder now. Profit above all? I wonder if there was a lot of pressure on Intel to drop their boards from corporations afraid of the 'competition'. Forcing people to buy their products and 'lowest bidder' boards and components. *sigh*

 

[philthepill]

Intel is already screwed.

Shows you what bad management will do and how valuable good management is in business.

Apple has FANTASTIC management.

See Amiga/Commodore around 1994ish. Bancrupcy of the main opponent of Microsoft and Apple because of poor management decisions.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Personally I am beginning to think Apple might be getting close to the "Lumbering Giant" position.
Perhaps not yet, but give it another 10 years?

Without question they are suffering in some regards already due to their size, and don't really feel a very dynamic company anymore.
They feel like they dare not experiment, everything has to be very slow, very carefully thought out steps as they are unable to move fast.
A bit like a Aircraft Carrier.

That's not bad, but it makes them unable to be very exiting.
What I'd like to see, genuinely, and I don't know if this would be possible, would be for Apple to spin off a seperate division that was allowed to be more dynamic and take more risks.
So the Juggernaut Apple could continue to do what they do now, but the new "Apple Lite" could work on other things that the main company dare not venture into as there is too much at stake.

IT would be fun to see this. A bit like some of the far east phone makers, where you have the parent company which has to play it safe, but they have other sub company/s that are allowed to experiment, but without damaging the main company.

We all know Apple look at products on the market, Look at tech others invent, sprinkle a little of their own design and tweaks and then Boom a product arrives.
Then you wait a year and Boom version 2 fixing version 1 arrives.
Five years later we have an excellent mature version.

Meanwhile Apple-Lite could have released 20 things for customers to play with.
Many will fail, much fun will be had, and some good results learned.

It's always the same, Companies get too big and can't afford to take risks, or have much fun with designs.
I'm sure and Apple-Lite could have had quite a few Apple Watch designs out there by now.

I think there were a lot of missteps in Apple's 'Jobs Glory Days' too. Apple has become more ponderous, and swapping processors like they are doing is going to make things difficult for them in the short and midterm. Customer confusion is not a good thing. People that had, or were about to buy a mac are thrown into a quandary. Buy now? Return what they bought? Buy something from HP? From Dell (😆😆😆)? Not buy a computer?

Apple did what they did for the reasons they did it, and we don't know what the whole truth likely is, but if one of the reasons was to increase 'excitement' in the brand, it's coming up mixed. I still don't know if Apple's M1's will run Windows natively, and boot to Windows instead of having to go through the macOS process to start a virtual machine.

I'm sure they will wear the AirPod Max cans as a badge of how 'innovative' they still are. Like an aging Hollywood movie start doing an Oscar winning performance?

But back to Intel. I wonder if this isn't a play for a buyout/merger, or if they have a 'thread ripper ripper' waiting in the wings, just off stage, to sweep the industry. I don't think Intel is going away, but they seem to have lost in the media circus, so many calling them all but dead.

But anyway, Happy New Year.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

See Amiga/Commodore around 1994ish. Bancrupcy of the main opponent of Microsoft and Apple because of poor management decisions.

Then why is Boeing still in business? Stonecipher's shift of Boeing from an 'engineering firm' to a 'business' sure seems to have gone very well.

I remember so many people being furious at Commodore slashing prices after they bought C64's. You don't build customer loyalty by crapping on them like that. Their OS was a mess too. I remember trying to figure out how to format a floppy, and it was not easy. The Atari OS was, or seemed easier. *shrug*

But I do remember, working at a reseller of both brands, people being very upset at the Commodore price slash.

 

[citysnaps]

I strongly disagree that Apple has a much better management. Apples current and merely temporary advantage is that they are still sitting on a larger cash pool and their main products are still tanking. But for half a decade now Apple hasn't done anything particular innovative.

Now that's a real knee-slapper. And damn, I happened to be drinking milk when I read this.

Not pretty.

 

[[AUT] Thomas]

Well... that happens when you stop innovation... or just do as little as possible to stay in the game. Eventually, the competition will surprise you with something you can't catch up with quickly...
intel bascially sitting on their x86 assuming that the x86 market is eternal will cost them dearly. Pride comes before the fall... Apparently there has been zero research into alternatives.

I wouldn't be so sure. Apple is always looking at new markets (or in this case returning to old markets). The advantages that AS holds over Intel and AMD now (performance per watt, low heat etc.) could also give them a significant advantage in the server market. I think you are going to see the trend with the M1 Mac mini's being used more and more there that may push Apple to realize they could capture a significant marketshare with a dedicated server hardware product.

(x) Doubt

That will need a few (a lot) more years of development on the chip (we'll need those PCIe lanes, a decent memory controller, multiCPU support,...) and besides that macOS doesn't make a good server OS as is. That can be changed, but won't happen overnigt either. Last but not least, in the server market Apple is a newcommer. There's probably 0 trust in the industry about Apples commitment to the server basis given the history and how Apple likes to dictate certain things to the customers with their "We know best what you really need" mentality. I would go as far as calling that the bigger issue than the technical ones. A few people in Apple management would need to step over their shadow to make an Apple server attractive again.
You may want to read up on Apple networking which is basically now Unifi... capable people with the right mindset are held back... a lot. Then left and build their own company.
Everyone is always saying Apple has good management... but looking at how much money Apple is stockpiling instead of diversifying their product line is shocking.
The Mac is good, but it could be much better. Why is there no 4K screen option on 2020 on the top premium model? Why is there no OLED option? A lot of wasted potential. For both the customer and the shareholder.
The iPhone is good as is... but the OS is becoming a problem. iOS still has a lot of limitations that are an issue for advanced users, even for the average user, the lack of multi-user support in 2020 is a joke. Hand your tablet to your kid? Yes, please, have access to all my stuff... (nah, "restrictions" is not the right tool for the job)
Im 100% sure that these things have been raised by devs and users many times, but obviously been declined from a higher level. Given the financial ressources available at Apple not delivering those features is simply a mistake.
That's just not the management mindset for an Apple server...

 

[0lf]

I would not dismiss intel before seeing real world Alder Lake results late 2021. Sure, they are lagging a bit behind, but not so much to make them irrelevant.
Alder Lake is supposed to be their first true large scale big LITTLE kind of architecture (after lakefield being a first try limited to low power devices), and could well solve some of intel CPU shortcomings. They are calling it their biggest move since 2006. Competition is good, and I want to believe in Intel statement.

 

[nt5672]

You know TSMC is in a democratic country that is friendly to the west, and is not China, right?

Sure, but you know that China thinks Taiwan belongs to them and seems to be willing to go to war to prove it. You think the US will go to war with China to protect Taiwan? I am not so sure that is going to be a priority for the US government.

 

[nt5672]

Bad risk-averse management defending the status-quo is ooh so sweet in the short run; until reality catches up after some years!

In other words, management can only pad the bonuses for so long and stupid boards get what they deserve.

 

[Manzanito]

I wouldn't be so sure. Apple is always looking at new markets (or in this case returning to old markets). The advantages that AS holds over Intel and AMD now (performance per watt, low heat etc.) could also give them a significant advantage in the server market. I think you are going to see the trend with the M1 Mac mini's being used more and more there that may push Apple to realize they could capture a significant marketshare with a dedicated server hardware product.

Even if apple decided to return to the server market and somehow come up with a design that they deemed appropriate and also was competitive pricewise, there’s still the matter of trusting that apple’s commitment to the product is real.

Maybe they are able to design an awesome server processor, but I don’t really see them returning to that market.

 

[magbarn]

That's what Intel gets for over half a decade of shoving 14nm down our throats, Consumer 4 core CPU's for most of the decade...

 

[ipponrg]

I have no idea how Intels stock price is still around the $50 mark. They are absolutely screwed at the moment.

Keep in mind, that Macs are a relatively small part of Intel’s business. Apple does not distribute their SoC without the rest of the hardware (yet?), so they aren’t directly competing against Intel.

However what this does is it indicates that Intel has been complacent. It’s to be determined in the next few years what is going to happen

 

[cmaier]

Personally I am beginning to think Apple might be getting close to the "Lumbering Giant" position.
Perhaps not yet, but give it another 10 years?

Without question they are suffering in some regards already due to their size, and don't really feel a very dynamic company anymore.
They feel like they dare not experiment, everything has to be very slow, very carefully thought out steps as they are unable to move fast.
A bit like a Aircraft Carrier.

That's not bad, but it makes them unable to be very exiting.
What I'd like to see, genuinely, and I don't know if this would be possible, would be for Apple to spin off a seperate division that was allowed to be more dynamic and take more risks.
So the Juggernaut Apple could continue to do what they do now, but the new "Apple Lite" could work on other things that the main company dare not venture into as there is too much at stake.

IT would be fun to see this. A bit like some of the far east phone makers, where you have the parent company which has to play it safe, but they have other sub company/s that are allowed to experiment, but without damaging the main company.

We all know Apple look at products on the market, Look at tech others invent, sprinkle a little of their own design and tweaks and then Boom a product arrives.
Then you wait a year and Boom version 2 fixing version 1 arrives.
Five years later we have an excellent mature version.

Meanwhile Apple-Lite could have released 20 things for customers to play with.
Many will fail, much fun will be had, and some good results learned.

It's always the same, Companies get too big and can't afford to take risks, or have much fun with designs.
I'm sure and Apple-Lite could have had quite a few Apple Watch designs out there by now.

They just started switching their entire mac lineup to their own chips, contrary to all industry common wisdom and the voices of 10,000 uninformed MacRumors posters that Arm is not suitable for anything other than phones.

And you feel like they “dare not experiment?”

Ok. Whatever.

 

[cmaier]

Then why is Boeing still in business? Stonecipher's shift of Boeing from an 'engineering firm' to a 'business' sure seems to have gone very well.

346 dead people disagree with you.

 

[ipponrg]

They might since they are planning to expand their datacenters to align Apple towards more services. Where do you think they will host those services? On Intel Hardware or Apple Silicon? I bet they will also release a super high end processors for workstations that they will also use in their own servers. So if they are gonna make new servers for themselves why would they not release some of those servers for the massmarket ? I suppose they can and they should.

I don’t think Apple will ever release their chips independently outside of the rest of their hardware. People have been desiring this level of customization for a while, but they want to sell the whole package.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You think Apple and AMD are in a different boat? Their time will come. It always comes.

If Apple’s current systems were iterations based on the Apple II, I’d say sure. If Apple was still making more iPods than just the Touch, I’d say likely.

However, Apple reinvents themselves regularly to match the times. They COULD have continued making money hand over fist with the Apple II, but they killed it. They COULD have kept pushing the iPod, one of the world’s most popular gadgets, but they’ve almost killed it. macOS COULD still be the OS they sell most of, but it’s iPadOS and iOS by a HUGE margin. And, they’re likely working on the next thing past iOS now... the thing that will make iOS users in the future claim the same thing that macOS users do today, “Apple has lost their way!”