Intel Urged to Take 'Immediate Action' Amid Threats From Apple Silicon and AMD

[jonnysods]

I have to say I have been and will ever be a Steve Jobs fan. Given the money and capabilities of Apple they could and should have achieved so much more. But after the death of Steve Jobs his predecessor Tim Cook only played the save game. No risks no real innovation. At least that's my view.

I'm with you - a huge Jobs fan too. However things such as the Apple Watch, AirPods, even things people think are minor such as removing the headphone port and driving wireless tech forward, or the T1/T2 chips, U1 chips, let alone the M1 chip - you have to admit there are innovations still happening, just not world changing like when Steve was around.

 

[cosmolv]

How does it do that when the m1 cant run the universe of software available for x86?

Hmmm... That's an issue, but look on future and what ARM technology at this point promisses on performance per watt. I think Apple cleraly shows that this is the future to go and software adoption to ARM going so quick than after one year we forgot about compability issues.
But there are more than that. We can see that x86 anyway have emptying their juice. And if we calculate watts per performance on ARM desktop in future, then x86 are no way to beat that.

 

[2979382]

That seems like a strange thing to worry about. I looked into Third Point a bit and can't find much other than "event driven investment"-- but I'm not sure why they'd care about where America can get chips unless they're somehow government funded or issue driven. I'd expect them to focus on making Intel as efficient as possible and let America fend for itself.

I haven't read the whole letter though, so this might have been in the context of other vendors wanting a US fab for their custom parts for whatever reason. Still, seems an odd, ideological concern to voice...

Or could simply be that the letter was formulated by someone pro Trump who believes in the "make America great again" slogan or was trying to appeal to someone who is. There is a bit of a soft "tech cold war going on", or at least a race for self-reliance and achieving best in class by a number of major geo-political players.

 

[Analog Kid]

I wouldn't count Intel out yet. People are talking like Intel is already a has-been. Legacy applications are a huge market for Intel and companies won't be scrambling (at least imo) to redevelop entire working infrastructures at the cost of potentially billions of dollars for the newest chip on the block. Similar things were said over the years about Windows and windows infrastructure and look at Microsoft today.

They (intel) has to get their act together. For example, why was skylake architecture used in 6 generations of chips? My money is on them as over the years they survived threats from other chip makers, which made faster chips.

Nah, I wouldn't go so far as to count them out entirely, but I do think their future looks grim. The computing market is changing and Intel has shown no sign they recognize that fact, Intel is struggling in both their architecture and their process technologies, Microsoft seems more serious about supporting non x86 platforms than they have been in the past, and Intel has a long history of failing to grow beyond their core x86 business.

Obviously I don't know what's in development over there, but it sure looks like they're about to get lapped and they have nothing to answer with.

 

[2979382]

How does it do that when the m1 cant run the universe of software available for x86?

You either didn't get the memo or you haven't tried or own an M1 machine. So far all the x86 apps I installed on my M1, work fine (except Tor Browser), thanks to Rosetta 2. Also almost on a daily basis Intel apps are getting updated to natively support the M1, which shows the industry is welcoming the change and is heavily invested in adopting ARM.

 

[Analog Kid]

Or could simply be that the letter was formulated by someone pro Trump who believes in the "make America great again" slogan or was trying to appeal to someone who is. There is a bit of a soft "tech cold war going on", or at least a race for self-reliance and achieving best in class by a number of major geo-political players.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was looking for, but I don't see any evidence that they're pushing a political agenda-- that one line seems to be an outlier in an otherwise business focused memo. It could just be that the authors take it as a given in their world view, but it could also be that the quote was pulled out of context... Hard to know.

 

[2979382]

I'm with you - a huge Jobs fan too. However things such as the Apple Watch, AirPods, even things people think are minor such as removing the headphone port and driving wireless tech forward, or the T1/T2 chips, U1 chips, let alone the M1 chip - you have to admit there are innovations still happening, just not world changing like when Steve was around.

I am Jobs fan myself, and find him an endless source of inspiration, but I am objective too. In a way Jobs got lucky. He came up with a few ideas at the right time, and then Apple kept building on those. It is not feasible to expect a company to innovate at first ever iPhone level all the time. It's not doable. One needs time and physics on their side to achieve both innovation and quality. I think if you compare Apple's devices today with those from 10 or 20 years ago, the difference is huge, and you'll also find that Apple is the one being copied more often than the other way around. While in itself removing the headphone jack for example is not innovation, creating something that makes that change painless and push people into a new era of audio technology, is innovative. While plenty companies pushed the idea of wireless audio, they all presented it more like an alternative rather than THE way forward. Also, not a lot of companies invested in making wireless audio virtually indistinguishable from wired audio. Apple however did and keeps doing so for many good reasons. And years from now when you'll look back, you'll see the massive impact Apple made on tech. From where I am standing, those are world-changing innovations.

 

[bommai]

With a huge company like this they can’t just change overnight. Plus processor design takes a long time. It takes years to develop a new design. If Intel did make significant changes this year, for instance, we might not see the release of that for a couple years still. Tigerlake is a good step in the right direction, but more work definitely needs to be done.

Intel tried a radical new design back in the 90s. Remember the Itanium. Unfortunately the lack of x86 compatibility killed the Itanium.

 

[cmaier]

Intel tried a radical new design back in the 90s. Remember the Itanium. Unfortunately the lack of x86 compatibility killed the Itanium.

Merced was x86 compatible. It failed because it was a stupid architecture.

INTEL REVEALS DETAILS ON HOW MERCED WILL BE X86-COMPATIBLE

Santa Clara, CA -- As Electronic Engineering Times reported, a recently issued patent and new information from Intel Corp. provide fresh insight into a technical mystery surrounding the company's upcoming […]

www.hpcwire.com

 

[Abazigal]

I strongly disagree that Apple has a much better management. Apples current and merely temporary advantage is that they are still sitting on a larger cash pool and their main products are still tanking. But for half a decade now Apple hasn't done anything particular innovative.

I will argue that this is like that kid who posts his every waking hour in Instagram, vs an intensely private individual who hardly posts on social media at all. Compared to the former, we don't get as much insight into the life of the latter, but that doesn't mean they aren't working hard or otherwise getting on with their lives. It just means they don't choose to brag about it online for the whole world to see.

If we equate progress with how much "noise" they make, then maybe Apple is lagging behind because leaks aside, they don't announce products that are still in the beta or even alpha stage of development (except for maybe Airpower). But if we equate progress and innovation with how well each company actually delivers on their promises, then Apple is easily way up there. Just look at 2020.

Regular updates to iOS 14, macOS big sur, iPad OS, Apple TV OS, watch OS, Apple One, Fitness+, 2020 iPad Pro, Magic Keyboard, iPad Air, Apple Watch 6-gen and SE, 4 iPhone models, M1 Macs, HomePod mini, AirPods max. This is what I can remember.

Conversely, look at companies Microsoft who make such a big hoohaa over products like folding phones, which got them their 15 minutes of fame on tech blogs, and then the final product sucks and doesn't do well sales-wise. They have cutting edge ideas and solid technology and no lack of resources at their disposal, and and yet their products invariably underwhelm and underperform.

On the flip side, I can't remember the last time Apple released a product that wasn't a complete dog. Their strength is in releasing meaningful innovation that people actually want to use, and which work well (especially during the year of the pandemic). My 5k iMac was easily the MVP while I was conducting online lessons at home thanks to its gorgeous 5k display, and my M1 MBA can easily last 9-10 hours on zoom while staying icy-cool to the touch. Meanwhile, many of my colleagues have had screen burnout issues with their HP Elite laptops due to excessive heat generated from zooming all day, and I may have accidentally killed mine trying to zoom with an external display (the screen won't stop flickering after that one meeting).

My Apple products have really carried me through this year and it's times like this that I remember why I am all-in with the apple ecosystem. They may cost more upfront, but they more than pay for themselves in the form of improved productivity and fewer problems overall. And that to me is meaningful innovation I can get behind.

 

[ActionableMango]

Umm that’s how it starts. If you can’t sell a product then you can’t make money.

I'm aware, thanks.

Intel has 13 billion dollars cash on hand. You don't give bailouts to rich companies flush with cash.

If Intel cannot use their existing 13 billion dollars, their dominating market share, and their tremendous brand recognition to make compelling products that their customers will buy, then government bailout dollars won't either.

In any case, healthy capitalism requires that failing companies fail. Welfare for corporations is crony capitalism. Companies failing makes room in the market for their innovative competitors. Intel's competitors like Nvidia, AMD, and Apple are taking that market share away, as they should. Those companies capable of making compelling product shouldn't have to compete against unlimited free taxpayer money.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

They did not "gimp" it, Intel missed their mark of thermals they promised Apple. Unless you wanted to wait another ~2 years for Apple to redesign their entire laptop to fit the ACTUAL thermals that were produced. Apple did all they could with what was promised by Intel (lower heat -> types of laptops we received) and failed to meet those promises (much hotter than what Intel stated -> okay lets delay all our products for 1-2 years for a redesign?).

My 2019 i9 iMac gets WAY TOO LOUD and WAY TOO FAST. It is so irritating. But I do not blame Apple for this.

They are only loud when the fan runs, and the fan runs way too much because they gimped the cooling. They didn't mount the heatsinks flush with the CPU. Watch the vids and see for yourself. And if you don't trust those vids, go and pull a laptop apart and see if with your own eyes (I have, I have verified the vids are true). And once you see the vids aren't lying, if you don't understand the significance of what the vids are showing you, then find a techy mate you trust and ask them.

Yes, Intel have done poorly. Yes the M1 is awesome. But the Intel chips aren't as bad as you think, Apple gimped the cooling. Go see with your own eyes instead of yelling in denial at the internet, it is easily verifiable.

 

[hot-gril]

I wouldn’t waste my time because it’s not credible. Post a video from someone who’s not on some big anti Apple crusade and I’ll watch it.

I don't think he is. Just made a really silly video against the M1 Macs initially.

 

[hot-gril]

They are only loud when the fan runs, and the fan runs way too much because they gimped the cooling. They didn't mount the heatsinks flush with the CPU. Watch the vids and see for yourself. And if you don't trust those vids, go and pull a laptop apart and see if with your own eyes (I have, I have verified the vids are true). And once you see the vids aren't lying, if you don't understand the significance of what the vids are showing you, then find a techy mate you trust and ask them.

Yes, Intel have done poorly. Yes the M1 is awesome. But the Intel chips aren't as bad as you think, Apple gimped the cooling. Go see with your own eyes instead of yelling in denial at the internet, it is easily verifiable.

I don't know enough about thermals to tell who's right here, but I do know the earlier i9 models had serious cooling problems that caused thermal throttling to the point of being slower than the previous year's i7 models.

 

[Ethosik]

They are only loud when the fan runs, and the fan runs way too much because they gimped the cooling. They didn't mount the heatsinks flush with the CPU. Watch the vids and see for yourself. And if you don't trust those vids, go and pull a laptop apart and see if with your own eyes (I have, I have verified the vids are true). And once you see the vids aren't lying, if you don't understand the significance of what the vids are showing you, then find a techy mate you trust and ask them.

Yes, Intel have done poorly. Yes the M1 is awesome. But the Intel chips aren't as bad as you think, Apple gimped the cooling. Go see with your own eyes instead of yelling in denial at the internet, it is easily verifiable.

And it would not be an issue if we were on 10nm at least like Intel promised years ago. So instead of having Apple change their design after Intel missed their roadmap, delaying products, they did they best they could. Yes, Intel is this bad. We are on 14nm+++++++ when we should be getting to 7nm which does include better thermals and other design benefits. Intel is just bumping up the TDP on their processors, still on 14nm to stay semi-relevant with AMD.

I don't have a laptop, I have an iMac. And I am not opening it up as I am replacing it with an M1 and I am selling my iMac since the base Mac mini M1 beats the crap out of the i9 on my iMac.

 

[cmaier]

They are only loud when the fan runs, and the fan runs way too much because they gimped the cooling. They didn't mount the heatsinks flush with the CPU. Watch the vids and see for yourself. And if you don't trust those vids, go and pull a laptop apart and see if with your own eyes (I have, I have verified the vids are true). And once you see the vids aren't lying, if you don't understand the significance of what the vids are showing you, then find a techy mate you trust and ask them.

Yes, Intel have done poorly. Yes the M1 is awesome. But the Intel chips aren't as bad as you think, Apple gimped the cooling. Go see with your own eyes instead of yelling in denial at the internet, it is easily verifiable.

“Apple gimped the cooling” is pretty meaningless when you compare IPC, TDP, and actual measured currents.

Intel is awful.

 

[Ethosik]

Please check this. People were delidding Intel processors to get the CPUs to run cooler.

der8auer: delidding the Intel Core i9-9900K results in much better temperatures | PC Builder's Club

The new Intel Core i9-9900K is soldered, but there is still a lot of heat generated. der8auer has now delidded several processors and tried to optimize them

www.pcbuildersclub.com

Edit: And this lovely response from Intel for the 7th gen heat issues is great!

Intel Responds to Core i7-7700K Overheating Issue, Cluelessly Suggests We Stop Overclocking - ExtremeTech

Some owners of Intel Core i7-7700 and 7700K chips have been complaining for months about mysterious temperature spikes, and now Intel has responded -- with little more than canned PR nonsense.

www.extremetech.com

Not to mention that Intel's top tier CPUs require at least a massive heatsink similar to a Noctua or an AIO/Liquid Cooling solution to maintain max utilization also shows a problem. No way Apple would add a massive heatsink and a massive fan in the iMac or use liquid cooling to satisfy Intel's major heat issues.

 

[ipponrg]

Also almost on a daily basis Intel apps are getting updated to natively support the M1, which shows the industry is welcoming the change and is heavily invested in adopting ARM.

Has it ever occurred that Mac x86 apps need to get ported over to M1 ARM because that keeps the app’s customers happy and continues the company’s revenue stream for the platform? I don’t see how porting an app implies anything about a heavy investment into ARM.

 

[I7guy]

You either didn't get the memo or you haven't tried or own an M1 machine. So far all the x86 apps I installed on my M1, work fine (except Tor Browser), thanks to Rosetta 2. Also almost on a daily basis Intel apps are getting updated to natively support the M1, which shows the industry is welcoming the change and is heavily invested in adopting ARM.

That you think Rosetta 2 is the answer to porting x86 based software to m1 is missing the point. edit - x86 There are some big gaps and I'm sure there are some other fairly significant gaps.

What Can't Be Translated?​

Rosetta can translate most Intel-based apps, including apps that contain just-in-time (JIT) compilers. However, Rosetta doesn’t translate the following executables:

• Kernel extensions
• Virtual Machine apps that virtualize x86_64 computer platforms

Rosetta translates all x86_64 instructions, but it doesn’t support the execution of some newer instruction sets and processor features, such as AVX, AVX2, and AVX512 vector instructions. If you include these newer instructions in your code, execute them only after verifying that they are available. For example, to determine if AVX512 vector instructions are available, use the sysctlbyname function to check the hw.optional.avx512f attribute.

 

[I7guy]

Nah, I wouldn't go so far as to count them out entirely, but I do think their future looks grim. The computing market is changing and Intel has shown no sign they recognize that fact, Intel is struggling in both their architecture and their process technologies, Microsoft seems more serious about supporting non x86 platforms than they have been in the past, and Intel has a long history of failing to grow beyond their core x86 business.

Obviously I don't know what's in development over there, but it sure looks like they're about to get lapped and they have nothing to answer with.

People were also saying the smartphone market is changing and Apple can't keep up and proof was a down quarter or two in the last 10 years of Tim Cook being CEO. I guess it's a perspective of does one believe Intel's glass is half empty or full regarding Intel.

 

[chucker23n1]

That you think Rosetta 2 is the answer to porting windows based software to m1 is missing the point.

This is the first time you explicitly bring up Windows.

 

[I7guy]

This is the first time you explicitly bring up Windows.

Thanks, I had a "coffee" check. I'm going to fix the post.

 

[magbarn]

Please check this. People were delidding Intel processors to get the CPUs to run cooler.

der8auer: delidding the Intel Core i9-9900K results in much better temperatures | PC Builder's Club

The new Intel Core i9-9900K is soldered, but there is still a lot of heat generated. der8auer has now delidded several processors and tried to optimize them

www.pcbuildersclub.com

Edit: And this lovely response from Intel for the 7th gen heat issues is great!

Intel Responds to Core i7-7700K Overheating Issue, Cluelessly Suggests We Stop Overclocking - ExtremeTech

Some owners of Intel Core i7-7700 and 7700K chips have been complaining for months about mysterious temperature spikes, and now Intel has responded -- with little more than canned PR nonsense.

www.extremetech.com

Not to mention that Intel's top tier CPUs require at least a massive heatsink similar to a Noctua or an AIO/Liquid Cooling solution to maintain max utilization also shows a problem. No way Apple would add a massive heatsink and a massive fan in the iMac or use liquid cooling to satisfy Intel's major heat issues.

vs.

(I guess Apple "gimped" the 2020 iMac somewhat by not taking advantage of the removed HDD by putting in a larger fan/heatsink - There are some PC gaming laptops that have a larger total heatsink area than the iMac 27!)

These are the size of coolers required to allow an i9 iMac to run at max speed and remain quiet at the same time. You're not going to fit these in an iMac chassis. Apple isn't purposely gimping Intel cooling, it's that their designs just don't have to space to quietly cool such hot running CPUs, hence the M1...

Apple Specs the 2020 iMac i9 to have 295 watts TDP. I suspect the Apple Silicon version is going to drop that heat output by at least half. You'll finally get a much quieter iMac!

 

[chucker23n1]

People were also saying the smartphone market is changing and Apple can't keep up and proof was a down quarter or two in the last 10 years of Tim Cook being CEO. I guess it's a perspective of does one believe Intel's glass is half empty or full regarding Intel.

Yup.

I'm a bit disappointed by how many people are evaluating the market based on a single product release. Is the M1 well ahead? Yes it is. Does that mean AMD and Intel are doomed? No, I don't think so. It just means they got their asses kicked, and will need several years to recover from that.

It'll be interesting how Alder Lake does. The first time Intel does a heterogenous setup (and the first time the entire line-up is finally 10nm), not counting their nobody-cared low-end Lakefield offshoot. I don't expect it to surpass the M1, but the 10nm releases of Ice Lake and Tiger Lake have at least managed some amount of catching up.

 

[2979382]

Has it ever occurred that Mac x86 apps need to get ported over to M1 ARM because that keeps the app’s customers happy and continues the company’s revenue stream for the platform? I don’t see how porting an app implies anything about a heavy investment into ARM.

Of course it has occurred to me and it further proves my point. Porting for many apps took very little time in the grand scheme of things. Many of the companies who rushed to port, some by day 1, could have easily dismissed the M1 in terms of revenue, after all Macs make only an 11% market-share, yet they did not dismiss it at all. The whole of the software industry could have shown the middle finger to Apple, and let them fail with the M1, because after all, no matter how phenomenal a CPU is, if there is no software for it, it's an instant fail. The industry could have simply let Apple struggle with just Rosetta translation until they gave up. But guess what? That's not what happened. Many apps that ran just fine on Rosetta got an M1 update mere days or weeks after the M1's launch. They wanted their apps to run as best as possible on these new CPUs and THAT is investment. Linux distros showed that ARM is more than capable for desktop, Apple showed it now too, and Microsoft is about to. Just get with the times and move on. x86 was great while it lasted, but nothing lasts forever. In 20 years we'll be moving from ARM to something else. Don't stand in the way of evolution, man.