Intel Viiv Platform... and Apple?

[Sunrunner]

They offered the same deal to Intel who told them to get lost. They had IBM design the chip since they were the only company who would accept the terms.

Shouldnt be any suprise there. Intel knows better than to get locked into the contractually-obligated production of chips they dont own and can't design flaws out of for a strongarm organization like MS. It also likely runs as direct competition for them with the Viiv platform set.

VIIV (pronounced 'five')

I'm ok with the embedded DRM in viiv-chips as long as it places no restrictions on non-DRM content. (i.e. CD's & DVD's ripped from your personal collection.)

Very true. Ive never had any problems with the Faiplay schema, and really dont get how anyone could. It is a very fair setup overall...

 

[AidenShaw]

Shouldnt be any suprise there. Intel knows better than to get locked into the contractually-obligated production of chips they dont own and can't design flaws out of for a strongarm organization like MS. It also likely runs as direct competition for them with the Viiv platform set.

And Microsoft has learned that it's better not to be in a situation where a supplier has you over a barrel when it comes time to renew a contract.

By owning the chip design, MS can shop around for the best deal from a foundry. It can also be assured of getting discounts as processes mature and yields improve. Even if IBM is making the triple-core chip today, the next round might come from a foundry willing to undercut IBM's price.

With Intel (or IBM or ATI or nVidia) owning the design, those improvements show up in the vendor's margin, not Microsoft's.

MS is counting on declining parts costs to reduce the cost of the Xbox 360 hardware so that it will eventually be sold at a profitable price on the hardware alone.

 

[Super Dave]

Bad news on Digitimes 🙁
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20051206A7033.html

Maybe a media center but not an mini or laptop?

I suspect that this is either:

a) an intentional leak so investors stop expecting intel in January and thus overinflate Apple's stock price.

or

b) an intentional leak so customers don't expect intel in January, so that they keep buying PowerPC models for the next month.

David 😎

 

[Donm]

some answers

I've been reading this thread for awhile and I can add some facts to it (for a change).

1. Intel concieved and developed eastfork/viiv before apple made any agreements to buy Intel.
2. yes, Jobs knew about viiv as soon as they started to get serious. My own personal theory is that it actually made apple act quicker about the digital home segment. Wasn't there an interview with Jobs when the ipod came out and in it he mentioned that he didn't see the convergence of the PC and TV. Now they are trying hard to get in front of viiv.
3. viiv is more than just a marketing gimmick. there is an ecosystem of software/services, standards and devices. it's more than what centrino was to notebooks. this will not be very obvious during the launch at CES. the original viiv vision has been fragmented in order to meet the launch deadline.
4. unfortunetly MS is tied to viiv for now. however, viiv is a platform that could be used by other companies. they could use the instand on, hd audio, wireless and secure drm wireless transmission protocol.
5. susprisingly intel does care about free use. that is the main reason they gave support to hd-dvd versus blu-ray. apparently there's a sticky point around consumer being allowed to burn blu-ray to their harddrive or be allowed to stream it, or transfer it to other devices in the home.

 

[GregA]

I suspect that this is ... an intentional leak

Highly possible. Over-inflated expectations always lead to a disappointment when the real deal comes through.

For instance, imagine Apple release an intel-iBook, and demonstrate the future Mac-mini/Viiv system? This would be great by expectations 3 months ago, but a disappointment from todays expectations.

intel does care about free use. that is the main reason they gave support to hd-dvd versus blu-ray. apparently there's a sticky point around consumer being allowed to burn blu-ray to their harddrive or be allowed to stream it, or transfer it to other devices in the home.

This explains Intel's interest on transcoding material on the fly.

I assumed Apple wanted to transcode on-the-fly so that you could download a SDTV quality show and sync to your iPod at lower-res. Or record digital-TV and transcode from MPEG2 to h264 so it takes up less hard disk space. Maybe it also allows for streaming DVD through the house.

 

[Donm]

Highly possible. Over-inflated expectations always lead to a disappointment when the real deal comes through.

For instance, imagine Apple release an intel-iBook, and demonstrate the future Mac-mini/Viiv system? This would be great by expectations 3 months ago, but a disappointment from todays expectations.

This explains Intel's interest on transcoding material on the fly.

I assumed Apple wanted to transcode on-the-fly so that you could download a SDTV quality show and sync to your iPod at lower-res. Or record digital-TV and transcode from MPEG2 to h264 so it takes up less hard disk space. Maybe it also allows for streaming DVD through the house.

In intel's case streaming dvd's across the house is part of viiv, however not in the initial release.

 

[ScubaDuc]

What I find interesting about the website is talking about plug-in TV tuner cards. This clearly indicates that the intention is for the possibliity of one device that will be customised by broadcasters to their market / services.

Consider different TV standards, NTSC for US, PAL and Secam for Europe; PAL B for Brazil, etc. But why a tuner card to begin with? DVD-R, have tuner cards..USe one of those with a firewire out. What Intel has not thought about, is that people on MR have commented that they don't like to hear fan noise when watching a movie.

Therefore, if it works while the PC is off, great! I like that idea, otherwise, we need wi-fi TVs, or better yet, TVs with HD and Wi-Fi/bluetooth: or even better, a 30 inch fanless i-Mac 😱

 

[mongoos150]

I'm a bit confused as to what Viiv is - it's not a chip, is it? Not a processor like Yonah - what exactly is a "platform"...????

 

[Aggamemnon]

Just like Centrino is a platform containg three elements: Pentium-M CPU, Intel chipset and an Intel WiFi card, Viiv is a collection of Intel technologies given a funky name.

 

[heisetax]

Hardware doesmatter

Not only that, but if you check both companies, they have similar philosophies: what hardware do we need to run our software? Both are about the experience, not the hardware.

Maybe the expereience was because of the hardware?

Bill the TaxMan

 

[steve_hill4]

So, is this going to tie into the next Mac mini then? Or if Intel is going their own way with this, where will that leave Apple? Doing it on their own as well, or will there possibly be a link involving OS X somehow? Just random thoughts... 😎

It would be Mac Mini for sure, if they plan to use it that is.

Sorry if this has already been asked/answered, but does anyone know how this matches up to the Yonah in power, speed cache etc.? We all expected that would be used for the Mac Mini, so it would have to be fairly comparable for slot in there.

 

[heisetax]

Try it with a CD

Man, what's wrong with the restrictions using Fairplay? Up to 10 CDs of the same track list. Unlimited CDs as long as you mix the tracks. Five computers. Unlimited iPods.

Some of you just aren't going to be happy until Apple (or someone) says:

"Here just have all this content for free, copy it all ya want, hand it out to whomever you want and we'll just go out of business quietly and try not to bother you."

With a CD you have none of these problems or as you say restrictions. I won't purchase any music from the iTunes Music Store just because of the DRM. I'm not going to give it away & do not expect the music for free. My CDs take up about 60GB on my hard drive. And I can make more than 6 hard drvie copies if I deem it necessary. Remember everyone does not have the same kind of computer system as you have. Many have a computer in everyroom. This could mean a dozen hard drives or more. I don't always want the lower quality recording tha is on my iPod. Sometimes I want to come closer to the CD sound quality.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[Donm]

What Intel has not thought about, is that people on MR have commented that they don't like to hear fan noise when watching a movie.

You'll be happy to hear that, that issue has been addressed. Viiv systems with a CE form factor will have no fans, or perhaps all will have no fans. Keep in mind that the oem's can take the platform and create mini-tower form factor, traditional towers, or lastly what Intel really wants which is a CE device in the living room. this is where MS and intel differ in strategy. MS is all about MCE in the den or some office and then use a DMA or X-Box 360 to a TV. intel wants viiv in the living to begin with. hence the need to address heating and walla....no fans.

 

[bigwig]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

 

[generik]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

My understanding of ViiV is that it is a platform that includes DRM from the very basics of its design.

As of yet I doubt AMD has any real plans on DRM yet.

 

[Donm]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

AMD's integrated memory controller advantage is going to go away...and then all you have is a CPU manufacturer. Intel is making platforms with benifits to the end user that AMD will not be able to match. It's a classic win a battle but lose the war scenario.

 

[Aggamemnon]

Exactly. Intel can provide a solution, whereas AMD can only provide the CPU.

Personally I prefer AMD for my Linux boxes but if I were Apple I would go with Intel.

 

[steve_hill4]

I had a very interesting chat with a guy who used to work part-time for our store, who is currently working for intel for a sandwich year. He can't obviously disclose any secrets, but mentioned viiv to me and I asked if he knew anything about it going into the Mac Mini. His response was surprise I mentioned Apple to do with it, but I persisted and explained the rumoured future of the computer, he still seemed to be insistant Apple would not be using it and it was going to be for something completely different.

Either he was doing a bloody good job of acting through the truth, or he was being honest and Apple really won't be using the chip. Going by the kind of person he is, I would say he was being honest. His immediate reaction was not of consideration and then reaction, but of straightforward surprise.

I guess I could be wrong, but perhaps intel have plans to use these chips in devices away from mainstream Desktop computing. There were rumours after all that intel were thinking of building their own Media Center device. If others aren't getting the chip, perhaps they are reserving it for their own machines.😱

 

[jaw04005]

Centrino concept is nice... but I'm not certain I like the Intel Integrated graphics being required, etc. I hope that if Viiv is a Centrino-like thing, they do it right.

Centrino does not require an Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. It is my understanding that only a specific chipset (which may or may not include integrated graphics), wireless card and a pentium M processor are required. IBM, Fujitsu and Dell all offer Centrino notebooks with ATI graphics cards.

VIIV also does not require a Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. If you think about it, how is VIIV supposed to be a multimedia center without dedicated graphics?

 

[Peace]

Has anyone realised the coralation between Intels Viiv and Apple's Vingle yet?

And..

Apple has trademarked "Numbers","Jam Box","RT Extreme" and many others relating to a multi-media center..

 

[mdavey]

Has anyone realised the coralation between Intels Viiv and Apple's Vingle yet?

Yea, I did. Also that Vingle sounds like an acronym: VIdeo N-something Graphics Library Extension. Someone else posted that an Intel engineer/friend was very surprised to hear about the rumor of Apple using Viiv, though.

Apple has trademarked "Numbers","Jam Box","RT Extreme" and many others relating to a multi-media center..

Do you have a link? Numbers is rumored to be the iWork spreadsheet application. Jam Box sounds like a Garage-band-like Karaoke / Asteroid thing. RT Extreme - that's a plug-in for Final Cut Pro isn't it?

 

[Peace]

Yea, I did. Also that Vingle sounds like an acronym: VIdeo N-something Graphics Library Extension. Someone else posted that an Intel engineer/friend was very surprised to hear about the rumor of Apple using Viiv, though.



Do you have a link? Numbers is rumored to be the iWork spreadsheet application. Jam Box sounds like a Garage-band-like Karaoke / Asteroid thing. RT Extreme - that's a plug-in for Final Cut Pro isn't it?

Numbers :
Word Mark NUMBERS
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer software
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Design Search Code
Serial Number 78646677
Filing Date June 8, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B;44D
Original Filing Basis 1B;44D
International Registration Number 0858440
Owner (APPLICANT) Apple Computer, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1 Infinite Loop Cupertino CALIFORNIA 95014
Attorney of Record John Donald
Priority Date January 4, 2005
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE



Jam Box :

Word Mark JAM BOX
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer hardware; computer software; computer peripherals, namely audio production systems comprised of computer hardware and software for composing, recording, creating, converting, enhancing, processing, amplifying, mixing, manipulating, and playing audio signals
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Design Search Code
Serial Number 78611342
Filing Date April 18, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) Apple Computer, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1 Infinite Loop MS 3-TM 1 Infinite Loop Cupertino CALIFORNIA 95014
Attorney of Record John Donald
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


RT Extreme is plug-in for Final Cut Pro

Lots of cool info at :

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=eotng1.8.71

Not sure if that link will be active as it's a temporary search from the Patent Office.

 

[Donm]

VIIV also does not require a Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. If you think about it, how is VIIV supposed to be a multimedia center without dedicated graphics?

Actually, it's my understanding that Intel graphics are a requirement for Viiv.

 

[jaw04005]

Actually, it's my understanding that Intel graphics are a requirement for Viiv.

According to Anandtech, that's not the case.

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2510

For a desktop to be called a VIIV, it must meet a number of hardware requirements:

1) It must use either a Pentium D, Pentium Extreme Edition or Pentium M (Yonah) processor. All of which are dual core, but in the future dual core may not necessarily be a requirement.

2) It must use either a 945G, 945P or 955X chipset or Intel's Calistoga chipset for Yonah.

3) It must use either an Intel PRO/1000 PM NIC or a PRO/100 VE/VM NIC. Wireless is not a requirement.

4) Intel HD Audio is a requirement, as well as the appropriate jacks (either 6 RCA connectors or a single SPDIF, no word on whether the latter supports 5.1 channel audio).

5) All VIIV PCs must come with a remote control that works with Windows XP Media Center Edition and can work with the media shell used on the system by default (e.g. MCE's 10 ft UI).

Along with those hardware requirements, the following software requirements are in place:

1) All VIIV PCs must use Intel's driver stack, including HD Audio, RAID, Graphics (if applicable) and LAN drivers. They must also use Intel's Instant on/off drivers (more on this in a moment).

2) The system must run Windows XP Media Center Edition (and obviously meet its requirements).

3) The system must feature Intel's network software, which when used with VIIV certified network products you are able to setup a home network or configure any VIIV certified network device entirely from the remote control.

4) All VIIV PCs must use Intel's Integrated Media Server software. The media server software features a transcoding engine that will automatically transcode audio and video from a number of "popular" formats to a DLNA compliant format for transmission to digital media adapters, portable devices, etc... without worrying about maintaing compatible codecs. The media server software will also find all content on your network and give you access to it from the VIIV PC, even if you are remotely accessing the VIIV PC.

Note that there are no requirements for noise, thermals, form factor or anything of that nature. Intel says that VIIV PCs will ship in a number of form factors, including desktop, all-in-one, as well as slim set-top box form factors.

 

[Donm]

I'll double check, but I was fairly certain that Intel on board graphics were part of the requirements.