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That is somewhat interesting that the chip has hyperthreading, but not out-of-order execution. They are essentially the same thing, so I wonder how much Intel is really saving by dropping OOE, but still having hyper-threading.

Hyperthreading and out-of-order execution are completely different things.

Out-of-order execution is really difficult to implement: When the processor uns into instructions that cannot be executed yet because they wait for results that are not there yet, it has to examine instructions that should be executed further down the line, and not only find whether they are ready, but also prove that the instructions in between don't affect the result. The difficulty is rearranging the instructions.

Hyperthreading is much easier: It duplicates a small part of the processor (the part that reads instructions) to simulate two processors. It checks whether processor A has any instructions ready for execution. If it doesn't, it checks if processor B has any instructions ready. Instructions from two processors never interfere, so mixing them causes no problems. Much simpler than out-of-order execution.
 
I was going to buy an ipod touch this week. Is it a bad time to buy? I would hate to buy it and then just a few months later see it get a big update. I don't like to wait and don't usually play that game, but if it is very imminent I would consider it. any opinions?

There won't be a major update in the very near future, certainly; Silverthorne hasn't even been released yet. In "a few months", though, who knows. It's pretty much impossible to predict these things that far in advance short of Apple actually making an announcement, especially for products that are only in their first generation. There will probably be some advance warning of an iPhone update, given the FCC requirements, which would likely go along with any Touch update, unless somehow something to do with 3G holds up the iPhone.
 
I wonder what would be able to be accomplished with a more powerful iPhone.
More power for less energy is always better. Imagine smoother animations but with extra battery life.

Once the iPhone has 3G and bigger capacity, I'll be much more ready to get one. :D
 
Indeed.

I wouldn't mind 32gb (&+) though

Yeah, 32 GB is the point at which I would definitely get an iPhone. My guess is 2009 for that, though. Hopefully my 3rd gen. iPod will last until then...
 
So the first 1st iPhone is really an Albatross, as no other iPhones will be on the same mobile CPU?! Great, thanks Apple for another dead-end...

1. It will be quite a while until this Intel chip will be ready. I don't think anyone would suggest Apple should have delayed the iPhone for 18 months or longer to wait for this chip. 2. At this moment in time, Apple doesn't care very much what kind of a processor is in any bit of equipment. It is just a compiler switch. If the MacBook Air had a quad core ARM processor, it wouldn't take any time to get any universal software to run on it. 3. This chip is reasonably powerful and low power. Guess what an ARM processor is. I have run tests ARM vs. Pentium 4 about two years ago, and an ARM processor was about four times faster per clock. And ARM hasn't stood still.
 
thats pretty awesome. intel seem to enjoy working with apple and i wonder if apple put any ideas into their heads with this one.

Intel told us previously that Apple has been talking to them about how to look at Intel offerings differently. I think the Intel CEO said something similar to that.

When will this baby be available?
 
Basically, a more robust experience/functionality.
Think more laptop less smart phone.

Frankly... I hope they don't go that route... I mean... I love my iPhone, but trying to do anything that involves writing even short messages is a real PITA.

I hope they continue to keep it smart and simple.

Why can't I shake this hunch that the iPhone is headed more towards a small, tablet-ish size/device than maintaining current 'smart phone' dimensions?

I hope they keep the iPhone where it's at... it's a good size for a phone. I don't want to hold a tablet PC up to my ear when making calls.
 
Hyperthreading and out-of-order execution are completely different things.
Oh really?

Instructions from two processors never interfere, so mixing them causes no problems.

If the instructions never interfere, then I guess they are running on separate hardware, RAM, OS, and data?
 
Oh really?



If the instructions never interfere, then I guess they are running on separate hardware, RAM, OS, and data?

Rather than getting into a pissing match over something you clearly know nothing about, I recommend looking at Wikipedia or Ars Technica.

Hyperthreading is more less moving an OS-level concept (multi-programming) into the CPU microcode itself. This is an idea that Intel has been promoting for some time. Hyperthreading is a limited form of this idea.

Out-of-Order Execution is a completely CPU-level concept. If the CPU can determine that certain instructions are not related then it can process them out of order in such a manner that improves overall instruction throughput within the processor. This can be applied to the linear commands within a single process. Hyperthreading is merely taking independent processes and running them concurrently. OOE is MUCH more complicated.
 
Power Consumption

Every time I hear about a new chip that uses less power, I think to myself, are they going to use this to make things smaller, or are they going to use it to make things have a larger battery life? They aren't mutually exclusive of course, but there is a tradeoff involved. Personally I think laptops and the iTouch/iPhone are thin enough. What they are all lacking across the board is exceptional battery life. Let the size stay pretty much the same, and let the extra space be used for a larger battery. If you want to go back to making things smaller after my laptop has 10 hours of juice and my iPod has 20, feel free.
 
Every time I hear about a new chip that uses less power, I think to myself, are they going to use this to make things smaller, or are they going to use it to make things have a larger battery life? They aren't mutually exclusive of course, but there is a tradeoff involved. Personally I think laptops and the iTouch/iPhone are thin enough. What they are all lacking across the board is exceptional battery life. Let the size stay pretty much the same, and let the extra space be used for a larger battery. If you want to go back to making things smaller after my laptop has 10 hours of juice and my iPod has 20, feel free.

Agreed.
 
Battery Life

The MacBook Air is just another example of sacrificing power or battery life for thinness. Don't get be wrong, the MacBook Air is very sexy, and Apple is all about the sexy. It's a big part of the reason why I like their products. I just wish that battery life was more sexy so they'd pay more attention to it.
 
Hyperthreading makes less sense on normal Core CPUs

Hyperthreading is back on ~Core 2! Why can't my other processors have it?

How effective hyperthreading is depends on factors like the pipeline length and whether or not out-of-order execution is used. Intel designed the later Pentiums with one goal in mind: Higher clock speeds (at virtually any cost). The only way to achieve this was to use a very high pipeline length. The downside were more frequent and longer stalls than would occur on a processor with a shorter pipeline. Consequently, the utilization of the CPU's integer and floating-point units was sub-optimal. This means when Intel introduced hyper-threading to the Pentium 4, there was a need for a way to increase processor throughput by making more effective use of its integer and floating-point units.

AMD, on the other hand, wisely chose not to compete in this rat race. High clock speeds may be good for marketing to the technically unaware, but a better measure for a processor's speed is throughput: Clocks per second multiplied by the amount of work that, on average, can be completed per clock. Thus, in their Athlon series, AMD preferred to improve the CPU design to combine moderate clock speed increases with great increases on the work per clock side. This allowed AMD to use a shorter instruction pipeline, meaning less, and less severe stalls, and consequently better utilization of the processor's work units even when additional units were added. Also, the longer clock cycles allowed AMD processors to perform more complex calculations per clock. The net result was that Athlons would, in real life applications, often outperform Pentiums that operated at significantly higher clock speeds, attracting all sorts of tech savvy customers to AMD. It is obvious from the Athlon's short pipeline design that hyper-threading would have been much less effective on Athlons than on Pentiums, so it is unsurprising that AMD did not choose to introduce it on their CPUs.

Enter Paul Otellini whom I highly respect. He may not have been the one who started the "Core revolution", but he definitely supported it. But let me explain what I mean by this term. By 2005, it was becoming more and more obvious that Intel would have massive difficulties further increasing their processors' clock speeds. It was also obvious that even in the mid term, many of the problems were insurmountable. Plus, the power consumption of the Pentiums reached absurd levels even before Intel introduced the shame de la shame of the entire line - the Pentium 4 "Prescott". The NetBurst architecture had reached a dead end. Intel finally did the right thing and redesigned its processors to use shorter pipelines and perform more work per clock - just like AMD had done for years. Intel even did this at the expense of clock speed. In doing so, Intel managed to overcome the efficiency problem while at the same time improving processor throughput. At the same time, hyper-threading became largely obsolete - while allowing more than one thread to run simultaneously was still desirable, this would require increasing the number of work units as well rather than just allowing two threads to share the same set of work units like in hyper-threading. Thus, the Core Duo was born, and the rest is history.

In a sense, Intel finally realized it was on the wrong track and has now chosen to abandon NetBurst and out-AMD AMD instead. They had a lot of success doing this. This should also explain why now there are Intel CPUs with 4 cores but no hyper-threading.

But why would Intel then want to reintroduce HT in Silverthorne? Simple - while Silverthorne as a Core CPU could effectively saturate its work units by out-of-order execution alone, Intel chose to remove OOO execution in order to conserve power. But this means Silverthorne might suffer from the old work unit utilization problem, and hyper-threading becomes interesting again, at least for this particular processor line.

As an interesting foot-note to a long post, I want to add that hyper-threading can, in extreme cases, actually hurt processor throughput. This can happen when both threads taken together require more cache memory than is available (while there would be enough cache for just one thread). In this case, they will cannibalize on each other's cache, and the number of RAM accesses will skyrocket, causing frequent stalls and thus slowing down the processor's operation.
 
How effective hyperthreading is depends on factors like the pipeline length and whether or not out-of-order execution is used. Intel designed the later Pentiums with one goal in mind: Higher clock speeds (at virtually any cost). The only way to achieve this was to use a very high pipeline length. The downside were more frequent and longer stalls than would occur on a processor with a shorter pipeline. Consequently, the utilization of the CPU's integer and floating-point units was sub-optimal. This means when Intel introduced hyper-threading to the Pentium 4, there was a need for a way to increase processor throughput by making more effective use of its integer and floating-point units....

...But why would Intel then want to reintroduce HT in Silverthorne? Simple - while Silverthorne as a Core CPU could effectively saturate its work units by out-of-order execution alone, Intel chose to remove OOO execution in order to conserve power. But this means Silverthorne might suffer from the old work unit utilization problem, and hyper-threading becomes interesting again, at least for this particular processor line.

As an interesting foot-note to a long post, I want to add that hyper-threading can, in extreme cases, actually hurt processor throughput. This can happen when both threads taken together require more cache memory than is available (while there would be enough cache for just one thread). In this case, they will cannibalize on each other's cache, and the number of RAM accesses will skyrocket, causing frequent stalls and thus slowing down the processor's operation.
I'm sorry for cutting your very informative post but I lived through it. ;)

I'm sure other users would benefit from the history lesson. I'll just have to wait for Nehalem to see what Intel has in store for hyperthreading on x86 there.
 
Yeah, 32 GB is the point at which I would definitely get an iPhone. My guess is 2009 for that, though. Hopefully my 3rd gen. iPod will last until then...

Hmmm.... 32GB SDHC cards are just becoming available for videocams. hey are about the size of a postage stamp in a approx 1/16 inch package.

These are targeted to HD Video capture.

I wonder if this technology is fast enough, etc. to be used in an iPhone and tablet.

Thoughts?
 
How effective hyperthreading is depends on factors like the pipeline length and whether or not out-of-order execution is used.
Hey gnasher & numbsafari! Better let Jackal-Head here know that he doesn't know what he's talking about!


But why would Intel then want to reintroduce HT in Silverthorne? Simple - while Silverthorne as a Core CPU could effectively saturate its work units by out-of-order execution alone, Intel chose to remove OOO execution in order to conserve power. But this means Silverthorne might suffer from the old work unit utilization problem, and hyper-threading becomes interesting again, at least for this particular processor line.
Hmm.. very interesting. So there is some kind of relationship between OOE and Hyperthreading? Guess I'd better hit the Wikipedia so I can stop pissing on myself!

As an interesting foot-note to a long post
In all seriousness, actually an excellent post. The decision to keep hyperthreading and drop OOE, must be based on some very app-specific factors, or the embedded space in particular, where hand optimization can be assumed.
 
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