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It's BS. The Beat should be in the US in 2011-2012 or so. It is also going to be in Transformers 2 and they wouldn't plug a product in an American movie that wasn't going to be sold in the US.

The Beat is not engineered to meet US crash standards, that being said it meets just about every other crash standard in the world. If they made it meet the US standards it would look the same but weigh more and be much slower and less efficient.

There was an interview in the last week or so where Bob Lutz was suggesting that they ask the Feds to put a monitorium on the US testing standards and allow all manufacturers to import cars that pass the European NCAP tests (most likely that meet a certain level, say minimum 3 or 4 star) so that they can all bring much more efficent cars to the US now as opposed to having to redesign etc etc existing European models and getting the associated delays with that.

As to the Volt and the 48mpg rating, I don't have a link but the reason for the lower than expected number seems to be related to how they want the car to perform, the expectation is for the batteries to close to or fully charged at the end of the cycle, so it sets the car up to do something it won't do under normal conditions. ie if the "test cycle" is <40miles, then the Volt uses no gas so they can't measure any fuel useage.
 
GM has more issues to worry about than the Volt not selling well; all GM brands (with the possible exception of Cadillac) have an image problem that has plagued them since the 80's, thanks to the ignorance of putting out crappy products. Chevrolet has to do more than create a world changing hybrid, they have to convince the public the Volt is a much better product than the Prius.
 
They say the old formulations were too high, so added what they called "real world driving". I have a Smart, and am averaging 43.7, where the EPA says 33/42 with about a 38 average. Last two tanks were an average of FIFTY. So take it with a grain of salt. A careful driver with no lead foot will most certainly crush the EPA's estimates.

I do hear what you're saying -- for every car I've owned since I've known how to drive, I've exceeded the old EPA mileage formulations! With most of the cars I've had, I get 1-2 miles per gallon (or more) above the old EPA highway estimate in combined driving.

But I think it's better for the estimates to be "reasonable" and taken with a grain of salt by people like us than to be optimistic and be wildly inaccurate for many people who aren't attempting to be fuel conscious when they drive. I think alongside that there needs to be much more education about things a person can do without buying a new car to reduce fuel consumption.

What I meant more was that when the hybrids came out, there were some people who were reasonably close to the original fuel consumption estimates, but even among enthusiasts who were trying to conserve fuel, there were tons of reports of much lower than expected fuel economy, and relatively few people who were hitting the numbers. The Insight was particularly bad -- while some people ultimately learned how to drive it to hit the EPA numbers, people were getting wildly lower mileage.

And even in much lower fuel economy cars, the same thing was happening with the old EPA system. I drive a 2003 Mazda 6 -- that's the current car that outdoes EPA estimates, getting me right around 29-31 MPG in combined driving). The "new" wave of Mazdas around that time were all being criticized widely, though, for failing to hit their (low) EPA estimates. Particularly the RX8.

I guess it's a complex problem, though. The problem is that when people got a car, under the old EPA system, and failed to get the mileage they were supposed to, they bitched about it instead of trying to drive less ridiculously. If they had done the latter instead, the old EPA system would have been great as an aspirational system. :eek: But as it was, it was just a nonsense number to many drivers.

No, but they should be able to estimate kWh usage.

At least that would be helpful in determining the cost to charge one up overnight.

Yes, I would really like to see this information too, including storage inefficiency. I want to know, in essence, if I had a garage (sigh) in which to plug in my Volt (sigh, sigh), how many kWh on my electricity bill would be incurred in order to drive the car, say, the 40 miles electric range (or per mile).
 
i already mentioned this in another thread, but one (IMO) huge problems with the plug-ins is that for some of the potentially larger markets (e.g.: NYC) there will be nowhere to plug it in because people park on the street or in garages.

there should be a coordinated effort with city majors to start putting in reserved parking spaces for plug-in cars with coin- or card-operated current outlets (delimitated by green lines? :) ).
this way you pay both for parking and energy, cities get cleaner and make some money along the way to boost. it would also boost the distance you can travel, since you can recharge during the day.
 
Imagine plugging it into an outlet, charging it up, driving 30 miles in it, parking it for 6 days, and then coming back to your car to find that while the car was sitting there, coming back and finding out that 10 miles worth of charge trickled from your battery. I know the car can charge itself through the use of petrol in the tank, but long term, they really need to find a way for batteries to hold charge better than current lithium batteries.
 
Park it outside, and get a couple of solar cells for the dashboard top.

There was something out about Toyota doing that with the Prius, though it was either denied by Toyota or just a study to see if it was worth doing but they then decided it wasn't worth the additional cost/weight/trouble.

Part of the changes in additional fuel economy is changing how various systems work in the car, most (all?) companies are reviewing what uses up gas and then seeing if they can find different ways to do it to reduce the amount of gas used.

Obviously depending on the vehicle price range some changes are easier to make than others. A $2000 cost to change something on a small car is harder to make then on a high end luxury vehicle.

The guys at MIT I think came out just recently with a new way to do solar panels, I think there was a posting on here, it was a more efficent way to do it, so long as the pricing is good adding panels in the roof of a hybrid and then recharging partially that way is quite advantageous. More so in the southern states where bright sunlight is for the most part the norm.
 
I'm quite exited about this car, because it's constant speed motor is much more efficient than the other Hybrid systems...

Not necesssarily more efficient: any time that you transform power/energy, there's going to be transfer losses (see "Laws of Entropy"). As such, when you convert fuel to heat, to mechanical motion to electricity to chemical energy (battery), back to electricity, back to mechanical motion --> 7 sources of efficiency loss instead of just 2.

And even when pulling from the grid: convert fuel to heat, to mechanical motion to electricity, ... and also add in "power transmission losses" here ... to chemical energy (battery), back to electricity, back to mechanical motion --> 8 sources of efficiency loss, if we assume that there's zero losses from AC-DC or voltage transformers (fat chance!)

Besides, another huge issue that is overlooked with electrics is that in northern climates, the waste heat of the traditional internal combusion engine is what provides heat & defrost in the winter months. Sure, you can burn electricity with a resistance heater wire, but that consumes "mileage". As such, an electric car that can go 40 miles in the summer may not even make it 5 miles in a snowstorm.


Drive to work. Drive home. Plug in for an overnight recharge. Repeat.:)
Yeah. Stick it to OPEC, stick it to Big Oil.:p

But now you simply have a new master, known as 'Big Coal'.


Because the whole point of the phrase "miles per gallon" is that it implies the efficiency of using the gasoline...if you want a statistic on that, it should be a meaningful statistics, like the number or fraction of kilowatt hours at the electrical plug point the car will consume per mile.

On the right track.

The metric of comparison you want is "Cost per Mile".

And FYI, you can use this metric to normalize out a lot of areas where there's differences.

For example, there's difference in fuel type costs (gas vs diesel). Similarly, when you deal with hybrid mechanical systems, they're more complex so there's differences in maintenance costs. On this latter one, the lifecycle cost of just the battery pack in a Toyota Gas-Electric hybrid reportedly is roughly $3000 for 100K miles, which works out to 3 cents per mile.

So what you do from an analysis standpoint is to take its MPG rating and convert it into cents/mile, then add in $0.03/mile to account for its higher lifecycle cost, then if you want, you can convert it back to "Effective MPG" for comparison purposes.

For example: 40MPG @ $4/gallon = $0.10/mile. Add in 3c --> $0.13/mile. Convert back to MPG = (1 mile/$0.13)($4/gallon) = 30.7 effective MPG.

The bottom line is that the new technology is superior only when it actually improves the consumer's real bottom line costs of operation. The current hybrid systems in the USA simply don't yet cut it, even if we can ignore their higher purchase price.


Does anyone realize that the car needs to be plugged in to an outlet in the home overnight to charge the batteries.... and that will in turn drive your electric costs up?

Yes, but this cost is being trivialized, which is a warning sign for smarter folks who know to look for the whole picture.


Correct on the drain on the electric grid.
But remember, the recharging will occur overnight, during low demand.

Demand does go down at night, but the question is if it drops off "enough" for popular marketplace conversion to occur without major infrastructure upgrades to the electrical grid. Do keep in mind that the average daytime load is currently running at 98% of maximum capacity of our infrastructure...that's not much of a safety margin, especially when everyone comes home and plugs in for a recharge at 5:30pm.

The bottom line here is that we're already behind the power curve on our investments to our electrical grid infrastructure even before we consider the potential impact of electric cars being added to it.

According to this site it's about $1 to charge a plug-in hybrid.

I checked that page - they conveniently fail to clearly document how many Kw-hrs worth of energy they're talking about, or the Utility's rate that is being charged. There's a lot of variables here. For example, IIRC, my local Utility's rate is over $0.20/kW-hr and will probably go up by another 15% next year.


Park it outside, and get a couple of solar cells for the dashboard top.

Not enough room on the car to mount enough panels for what you need. For example, a standard 180W panel is roughly a half square meter ... not too far removed from the useful area of a car's roof ... putting it under theoretically optimum conditions for 8 hours, you get 0.180 * 8 hours = less than 1.5 kW-hr. Now how far will this car travel on that much energy? My guess is maybe 5 miles and pragmatically, probably 1/3rd of that (2 miles/day), after all of the real world conditions (on solar collection rates, etc) are taken into account.

And don't forget that in order to get this, you have to pay for the solar panel & charger; I'd SWAG this at around $1000, since retail on the panels are around $900, although since automakers like to have big markups on options, I'd expect them to try to charge a lot more. If you want two panels, double this cost. For three panels, triple it and so on.


-hh
 
Not enough room on the car to mount enough panels for what you need. For example, a standard 180W panel is roughly a half square meter ... not too far removed from the useful area of a car's roof ... putting it under theoretically optimum conditions for 8 hours, you get 0.180 * 8 hours = less than 1.5 kW-hr. Now how far will this car travel on that much energy? My guess is maybe 5 miles and pragmatically, probably 1/3rd of that (2 miles/day), after all of the real world conditions (on solar collection rates, etc) are taken into account.

And don't forget that in order to get this, you have to pay for the solar panel & charger; I'd SWAG this at around $1000, since retail on the panels are around $900, although since automakers like to have big markups on options, I'd expect them to try to charge a lot more. If you want two panels, double this cost. For three panels, triple it and so on.

That's all well and good, but I was only addressing the loss of juice while parked for 6 days. :p
 
I didn't like how much it looked like some over-stylized vehicles like the Magnum/Charger/300/etc. I'm glad it's more of a normal car. I do lament the interior styling changes and lack of the cool rear 5-door-window, but then again, I wouldn't want people stealing my stuff so I understand the change to opaque plastic, Lol.

I just wish it were less than $40k. Take more of a loss already, it'll become the new paradigm of autos! Silly GM--they'd better not kill this one too.
 
You are correct, it is not a hybrid in the Toyota/Honda sense, where they use the gas engine for mechanical power boots, it is a hybrid in the Diesel-Electric Train sense, where the engine runs at a constant speed to charge the batteries, then the batteries operate the car. It has a special mode to operate it solely on the battery for up to 40 miles before engaging the engine, I believe that it will be found that the battery range is greater, but they don't want to risk cycling the batteries more than they have to. The constant speed engine/generator is much more efficient than the Toyota/Honda system. Just take a Train, where one gallon of diesel will move one ton of freight 220 miles.

TEG

Ya, the diesel is only engaged to recharge the battery, it never drives the car directly. Its only there for longer trips. The reason its not a hybrid is you can run it on batteries alone if you plug it in.
 
New photo's

vol4.jpg


vol3.jpg


vol2.jpg


vol5.jpg


vol6.jpg
 
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Very nice idea from Checy.
However, I'm not too crazy over the design.

However, GO GREEN! :D
 
The interior design is awesome and it's so nice to see that an eco-friendly car can look aggressive. Can't wait until production begins!
 
Don't like the look of the center console. Too weird for my taste! I'd also prefer most of the electricity in my electric car goes towards propelling the car rather than flashy displays.

But electric cars are the future, bring on super capacitors!
 
Don't like the look of the center console. Too weird for my taste! I'd also prefer most of the electricity in my electric car goes towards propelling the car rather than flashy displays.

That light grey is what throws me off.

What I want to know are the interior dimensions - anybody have passenger/cargo space numbers?
 
Grey is everywhere. Goes with all paint jobs. Get used to it.

As to power-consuming displays, I imagine that they rely heavily on LED lighting.
 
Nice pictures of the Chevy Volt, thanks for sharing them with us quagmire. :)


These new pictures do the Volt more justice than the first round with all the GM employees in them.
 
It looks like a a Honda Civic. Either good or bad depending on whether you like Honda Civics or not. not very original of GM either way...

The G8 is a great looking car. Why can't they make it look like the G8? There are never any cool hybrids...
 
Lutz was on Colbert and he said that the Volt will have an optional roof that will use solar energy to help recharge the battery!
 
^^^So that it'll be even more expensive? No thanks.

These new pictures do the Volt more justice than the first round with all the GM employees in them.

Too bad they're not photos. They're just CGI. Cars always look better in advertising and CGI. At least the original photos were of the real deal.

As to power-consuming displays, I imagine that they rely heavily on LED lighting.

But they're ugly, and most important of all, it still goes against principle. Get rid of all the damn screens, LED or not. People are trying to use less electricity, not more of it. Making it look more like a video game doesn't help my driving. In fact, I'd say the extra light coming from the dash is annoying.
 
That's true. ;) It's also a pretty cool option to give, in terms of trying to be progressive.

It's a weird option though. A $25,000 car being sold for $40,000 has an option of turning it into a $45,000 car.

However, the option for the solar panels sounds like a nice experiment. I want to know the cost of repair for the person who gets into an accident. Oh, and insurance costs for such a car.
 
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