iOS 15 'iCloud Private Relay' Feature Won't Be Available in China, Belarus, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and More

[Abazigal]

That’s my thought, but given the corporate makeup of our court system, it’s kind of a jump ball on what the outcome will be. The current Epic trial is looking like there’s going to be some outcomes that have nothing to do with the actual law, just which Silicon Valley coalition is going to win

What I am seeing is that as Apple continues to double down on privacy as the key selling point for their products, this business model is going to clash with many other companies who have made it their business to offer free services in return for user data.

Which is sad when you think about it. That Apple is not the saviour we need (the privacy focused-legislation to keep these companies in check will likely never materialise in the US), but the saviour we deserve (Apple isn’t perfect and has its share of shortcomings and skeletons).

 

[NT1440]

What I am seeing is that as Apple continues to double down on privacy as the key selling point for their products, this business model is going to clash with many other companies who have made it their business to offer free services in return for user data.

Which is sad when you think about it. That Apple is not the saviour we need (the privacy focused-legislation to keep these companies in check will likely never materialise in the US), but the saviour we deserve (Apple isn’t perfect and has its share of shortcomings and skeletons).

That mirrors my own thoughts as well. Apple, serious flaws and all, are the beacon of one aspect of freedom in a completely corporate run country. What a conflicting dystopian world we live in.

 

[Razorpit]

People are literally dying to get into Western Democracies. You can't say that about most other governmental systems.

That's a historical truth. Nobody wanted to escape to Cuba, the USSR, North Vietnam, China, or any of the other workers' paradises. In fact, most of those countries actively prevented people from fleeing. Go figure.

It's not Democracy alone that makes these places a place where people want to live. Latin America is full of "Democracies." And yet, millions of their citizens are living in or trying to get to the US. Egypt is "a democracy." Iraq is too. People get fixated on Democracy because successful countries are Democracies. But they are democracies because they are successful, they are not successful because they are democracies.

I got booted from AI for basically saying that same thing. People get real nasty when you hit them with the truth and it doesn’t align with their reality.

 

[NT1440]

I wonder if it's just openvpn repackaged.

Apparently the difference is that by having a two-hop system even Apple doesn’t know the destination IP’s so they couldn’t follow you even if they wanted. That’s according to Craig in an interview with Fast Company.

 

[MacBH928]

I thought those files were already encrypted via HTTPS streaming or TLS not sent back and forth in plain files?

What happens if you have an American account and you visit one of those countries without Cloud+? And why privacy is only for paid customers? So free customers get punished by having their data exposed?

 

[martinX]

What happens to communications from an iPhone owned by people who are visiting China, Belarus, Colombia, Egypt, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Turkmenistan, Uganda, and the Philippines?

 

[xander49x]

So brave Apple. Please lecture us more on your virtue while joining in on denying basic human rights in other countries.

Get off your soapbox. Apple must work within the laws of the country they are in, join the real world.

 

[bsolar]

Apple must work within the laws of the country they are in, join the real world.

That's certainly true, but it's Apple itself that acknowlegdges privacy as a "fundamental human right". It's the first line in their privacy statement. It's their choice to acknowledge privacy like that and a legitimate one, but it has consequences.

Apple decided to compromise on privacy to be able to do business in China. This is too a perfectly legitimate position, but it ultimately means that they are in fact compromising what they acknowledge to be a fundamental human right for the sake of doing business.

If they believe doing business it's more important than privacy, which is a perfectly legitimate position, they should not acknowledge privacy as a "fundamental human right", because if they compromise it for the sake of doing business as a matter of fact they are not treating it as one.

 

[hot-gril]

Their statement is that it isn't a VPN because the part that would be a VPN, also has a VPN. That second hop is what differentiates it and allows them to hide all the source data.

I mean, it's just two layers of VPN. Like how Tor is an onion router of more than two, though technically it's just a "web proxy" rather than a VPN since it only does HTTP traffic.

 

[LV426]

This is a VPN, but Apple is bound by local laws in every country they sell iCloud, so don’t expect it to be private in the sense that law enforcement can’t trace back traffic.

It’s so your data is private from your device *to Apple*.

The third party company is probably CloudFlare or someone in that space.

Indeed. And, for anyone tempted to ditch their regular VPN provider, this will be an easy backdoor for snooping governments to track you. They only have to give Apple the nod and they’re sitting alongside you in your device. And, in the UK at least, Apply are legally bound to comply and remain silent about any snooping they facilitate.

 

[quarkysg]

I mean, it's just two layers of VPN. Like how Tor is an onion router of more than two, though technically it's just a "web proxy" rather than a VPN since it only does HTTP traffic.

I think it is more like a forward proxy instead of a VPN.

Most likely all Apple devices will have encrypted requests using the third party's proxy public key, and forward the request to Apple's proxy server. Apple's proxy server in turn proxy the request to the third party server, which is able to decrypt the request and forward it to the target server.

So Apple knows it's from your device, but do not know which server it is for. The third party in turn only knows the request from Apple (not from your device) and knows the target server after decrypting the request.

Not sure if it will work with POP3/IMAP tho.

I could be wrong, but I guess this is how it'll work.

 

[joecomo]

Get off your soapbox. Apple must work within the laws of the country they are in, join the real world.

but nobody forces Apple to lecture morals from the high ground on others - or to sell in those countries for that matter

 

[Shirasaki]

I’d argue this apple’s new service works more like a proxy service than a true VPN, since apple will obviously NOT help you to bypass georestrictions to access contents from another country, nor it will Offer access to restricted website. VPN is still needed ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

This is outrageous. I will no longer holiday in Kazakhstan.

 

[Shirasaki]

I already use a VPN, therefore I'm not going to take much advantage of this feature, but I surely seeing like apple pursuing this direction

It’s more of a supplement of vpn than a replacement. Apple does not do vpn using this relay service.

 

[dumastudetto]

I suspect the list of excluded countries will be expanding fairly rapidly.

 

[TimWillz]

I assume this includes anyone that is signed up to the Apple One bundle?

 

[duervo]

HA, shocker. It must be really effective.

I wonder why Apple didn't want to say it won't be available in China during WWDC? Too scared to admit they are an authoritarian regime that doesn't align with their privacy or human-rights values?

Or simply that it would be counterproductive, from a keynote perspective, to mention a negative at a keynote that usually focuses on positives.

When was the last time you viewed a company keynote (for any company) that mentioned a negative about their products and/or services?

 

[quarkysg]

Or simply that it would be counterproductive, from a keynote perspective, to mention a negative at a keynote that usually focuses on positives.

When was the last time you viewed a company keynote (for any company) that mentioned a negative about their products and/or services?

Yes, no companies will advertise negatives.

I would think Apple would most likely get to those countries initially not included if they are able to get the equivalent services in those countries.

 

[Phil A.]

Mod Note

This thread has gone widely off-topic and should not be used for a general discussion around the politics of China (if you want to discuss that, start a new thread in PRSI). I will be tidying up this thread and removing the off-topic posts

 

[polyphenol]

Yes, no companies will advertise negatives.

It is at least arguable that this is precisely what Marmite has been doing for several years.

 

[Akzel]

I still have some questions about it:

1) will it mess up Netflix, etc? I know they have systems to stop VPNs from accessing their content. If they can’t pinpoint your location how will they serve local content to you?
2) won’t ISPs go crazy over it because they won’t be able to track if you’re visiting torrent websites?

 

[polyphenol]

Recently, when logging in to the Apple store on a computer, my 2FA alerts me (as expected). And says that I am located around five hundred miles away from my true location. (Same country, UK, but not same nation, as in it says Aberdeen in Scotland and I am not in that nation.)

(I have had lots of extremely wrong locations from such services - not just Apple. I think it is the ISP which causes the issue. Though I am quite happy at the slight step towards anonymity.)

Whilst this is already pretty ludicrous, what would it say when connected via Apple's relay service?

Indeed, is there be any point whatsoever telling me where the person logging in is located even now, let alone with Apple relay in place?

And will it identify the country?

 

[ian87w]

So brave Apple. Please lecture us more on your virtue while joining in on denying basic human rights in other countries.

How did Apple "deny" basic human rights in other countries? Do tell.

 

[Abazigal]

So brave Apple. Please lecture us more on your virtue while joining in on denying basic human rights in other countries.

I am not sure what exactly you expect Apple to do here. How it is any better for the people if Apple were to attempt to implement those features, then get kicked out of the country, rendering their devices and services unusable?

Apple is not here to fight your political wars for you. They (correctly) follow the laws of each country they operate in, and offer its citizens new features in accordance with those laws.

Which I feel is reasonable.