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The EU chose it for themselves when they made Apple take on the additional engineering burden at no financial benefit to themselves.

I mean, even if we agree that the spirit of the law is that all browsers should have equal PWA integration, as long as Apple has not gotten around to delivering that, they are probably in legal trouble if they keep that advantage.

Lawyers will advise them to be on the safe side, and here we are.

In the meantime, I am going to assume that Apple simply hasn’t gotten around to to it yet. Maybe they (eventually) will, maybe they won’t. We will see.
Apple being anti-consumer is Apple's own decision and choice. Stop bringing EU into that.

Apple could have implemented it the way it is beneficial for their customers. They decided not to. They intentionally decided to be anti-consumer. End of story.
 
Apple could have implemented it the way it is beneficial for their customers. They decided not to. They intentionally decided to be anti-consumer. End of story.

Assume Apple has not enough time to make PWA support for other browsers a reality until they need to comply. They are legally compelled to not have Safari features that other browsers don’t have.

What should they do? Break the regulation? I’m sure they would be under fire the same way. “Apple does not allow other browsers to be PWAs!”

Sometimes useful not to have cynicism dialed into absolute max.
 
Assume Apple has not enough time to make PWA support for other browsers a reality until they need to comply. They are legally compelled to not have Safari features that other browsers don’t have.

What should they do? Break the regulation? I’m sure they would be under fire the same way. “Apple does not allow other browsers to be PWAs!”
Digital Market Act form has been around since July 2022. Stop making excuses for Apple.

Almost two years is enough time for (one of the) biggest company of the world to implement API for 3rd party browsers.

This bad implementation is just Apple's own anti-consumer choice. Period. No matter your own excuses for them.

You can repeat the excuses all you want, but it won't change Apple's anti-consumer behavior of Apple's own choice.

Sometimes useful not to have cynicism dialed into absolute max.
Sometimes useful not to have Apple apologism dialed into absolute max.
 
Assume Apple has not enough time to make PWA support for other browsers a reality until they need to comply. They are legally compelled to not have Safari features that other browsers don’t have.
We won't know for sure until 17.4 is realeased and/or Apple makes a public statement about this. But taking into account the conduct of Apple's management regarding this regulation, it seems likely that this is another example of malicious compliance, to the detriment of users who rely on the PWA feature. I will miss it for sure.
 
Apple being anti-consumer is Apple's own decision and choice. Stop bringing EU into that.

Apple could have implemented it the way it is beneficial for their customers. They decided not to. They intentionally decided to be anti-consumer. End of story.
The consumer got what the EU asked for. To paraphrase a well known saying: crap is as crap does.
 
We won't know for sure until 17.4 is realeased and/or Apple makes a public statement about this. But taking into account the conduct of Apple's management regarding this regulation, it seems likely that this is another example of malicious compliance, to the detriment of users who rely on the PWA feature. I will miss it for sure.
My reason is this response I found in X.


The fact that web pages flagged as PWAs continue to work just fine implies that Apple is not out to kill PWAs in the EU as some form of middle finger to its users.
 
My reason is this response I found in X.
I have seen this tweet, it has been posted many times already in defence of Apple. It think it's not very convincing evidence. I would test it myself, but I only have one iPhone and don't want to run a beta on my main device.

I think it's good someone brought up the topic during the beta cycle. Maybe the critique will reach the right person at the Apple HQ, maybe not. If it's intentional we will know soon enough.
 
Here is what a PWA is on iOS:
--The same files (HTML, JScript, CSS) running at the website in Safari are downloaded.
--The same local storage (IndexdedDB etc.) used by Safari is used by the PWA.
--The local storage is separated from that used by Safari (which gets automatically deleted).
--The local storage is not automatically deleted (permenant).
--The PWA runs in a separate browser window run by Safari that only shows your app.
--Because of the downloads the PWA can run while offline.
--A true PWA provides a manifest file at the website describing how all this works to the browser.

If the author below is describing the security of Safari, the efficiencies of Safari, the Safari security model, and the hacks/stacks of HTML/JS/CSS then the points are relevant. I think, though, that Safari is likely the most secure, efficient, and capable app on iOS for website-level needs (which can be quite astounding when done right), so we have a difference of opinion.

PWAs are supposed to be run by the browser that was used to download them even if that browser is not the default. This was not an issue when Safari was the only browser on iOS. Now that Chrome might have been used to DL the PWA, Apple likely has some changes to make to the PWA process to ensure Chrome not Safari runs the PWA.

In other words, if you are on a web page that you find very useful, and you want access to it while off-line and you want its local storage to not get auto-deleted you can download it as a PWA and access it directly from an icon on your home screen. If you want to keep using it after browsing to the site in Safari (Chrome, etc.) you can do that also.

HTH.

It’s a bit of a dick move but that kills more web apps is fine by me. I know this is not a popular idea but hear me out first before you hit me with a shoe or something.

I spent years architecting the things and quite frankly most of the use cases need to just go. Everyone say they allow you to break free from the chains of your platform. They don’t. They allow someone else to sell their own SaaS microplatform to you instead or hoover up your data in an easy centralised location. The UI’s are terrible and built on stacks of hacks and garbage which consume ridiculous amounts of energy and fall over all the time. Not to mention the security model is terrible to dire at the very best. And even the supposed offline ones don’t work properly offline. They are a net regression for application delivery and I wish people would stop saying they are the best thing in the universe. Have you seen a web developer after a decade of doing it? They are almost universally nervous wrecks and smoke a lot. The back end guys are crack smoking monkeys and the companies that build them are hiring the worst people they can and hoping you don’t sue them one day when all your personal data end up for sale by the gigabyte on some dark web forum.

Of course this can be replaced by Electron so instead of having a PWA or native web app they bundle the whole stack into a monolithic blob that is shipped to your computer to run alongside everything else and eat up your RAM and CPU because they are too damn lazy, cheap and stupid or their business model is so close to the line that a native app is going to ruin them. They all suck.

The web should be for content delivery only and we should have fully native apps that support occasionally connected scenarios on our devices. I’m almost entirely running like that these days and my life is much much much better for it. Everything is always where I need it and my security and data protection posture puts my personal data at significantly lower risk.

As for on device browser engines, this whole thing is going to turn into the mess like Android is. Your entire locked down device model is screwed the moment someone bundles a completely separate browser engine just to display a flipping about box. Yes I’ve seen that twice now… Urgh!
 
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I hope you realize that the cookie prompt madness is because companies were (and still are; see "legitimate interest") grasping at straws to keep mining user data. Many websites offer a simple "All/Required/Personalized Cookies" choice.
Sure, but you are still tracked and fingerprinted by the many many trackers from the site regardless of spending far too long trying to reject as many cookie toggles for the 100th time in a day just to briefly read a webpage.
 
Here is what a PWA is on iOS:
--The same files (HTML, JScript, CSS) running at the website in Safari are downloaded.
--The same local storage (IndexdedDB etc.) used by Safari is used by the PWA.
--The local storage is separated from that used by Safari (which gets automatically deleted).
--The local storage is not automatically deleted (permenant).
--The PWA runs in a separate browser window run by Safari that only shows your app.
--Because of the downloads the PWA can run while offline.
--A true PWA provides a manifest file at the website describing how all this works to the browser.

If the author below is describing the security of Safari, the efficiencies of Safari, the Safari security model, and the hacks/stacks of HTML/JS/CSS then the points are relevant. I think, though, that Safari is likely the most secure, efficient, and capable app on iOS for website-level needs (which can be quite astounding when done right), so we have a difference of opinion.

PWAs are supposed to be run by the browser that was used to download them even if that browser is not the default. This was not an issue when Safari was the only browser on iOS. Now that Chrome might have been used to DL the PWA, Apple likely has some changes to make to the PWA process to ensure Chrome not Safari runs the PWA.

In other words, if you are on a web page that you find very useful, and you want access to it while off-line and you want its local storage to not get auto-deleted you can download it as a PWA and access it directly from an icon on your home screen. If you want to keep using it after browsing to the site in Safari (Chrome, etc.) you can do that also.

HTH.
Thank you very much for this extensive explanation!

By the way, I guess you cannot use extensions on PWA, right? Or is it a way to run a web-app with browser extensions?
 
Thank you very much for this extensive explanation!

By the way, I guess you cannot use extensions on PWA, right? Or is it a way to run a web-app with browser extensions?

I have not tested nor run any extensions with my PWA. It does appear, though, that extensions are available. Again, the PWA is simply the website files stored locally and running in a separate Safari window (separate from the Safari window you are using to browse the web -- both can run at the same time separately). Here is some good info re: extensions & PWA (not sure if this applies to Safari on iOS):

 
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Sure, but you are still tracked and fingerprinted by the many many trackers from the site regardless of spending far too long trying to reject as many cookie toggles for the 100th time in a day just to briefly read a webpage.
Not too much of a problem if you use an ad blocker. Besides, I don't get what trackers have to do with annoying cookie prompts?
 
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Not too much of a problem if you use an ad blocker. Besides, I don't get what trackers have to do with annoying cookie prompts?
Sure you can have an ad blocker and think that is doing something, just blocking ads from loading - but what about everyone else? Annoying cookie prompts were because the EU mandated it, so you think you have a choice about being tracked by... tracking cookies. The reality is it just an inconvenience to anyone who cares to try and stop a cookie... while still being tracked.

Meanwhile tracking pixels gather everything about you 😂
 
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I confirm, tracking pixels and fingerprinting are not legal -- without explicit and informed consent -- according to the RGPD. Unfortunately, a lot of sites don't play the game, by omission or ignorance.
There are also an awful lot of sites that deposit cookies, send emails, etc. even if you refuse. I haven't made any statistics, but I think that if I were careful, I could file complaints for non-confirmation every week!

For the Americans reading this, I understand that cookie banners are annoying, but if sites didn't stuff their pages with trackers, etc. we wouldn't be in this mess. It's normal to ask permission before collecting personal data.
Unfortunately, this practice has been commonplace for 20 years now, and should have been regulated much earlier.

The DPAs (Data Protection Authorities) of the various European countries are expected to take action in the event of infringement. Some play the game and make a lot of convictions (Spain for example) but others are much more lax (France), unfortunately.
The French agency (CNIL) closes a lot of complaints by simply issuing reminders (but there are a lot of repeat offences without any effort at compliance, and yet no sentences). When it comes to companies' wallets, it's strange: they act quickly. I hope things will improve in France.
 
Nothing mentioned in this article complies with DMA.
it's seems clear to me that they are addressing the DMA requirements about preferring Safari over other browsers.

There are conflicting reports about whether they are actually disabling web apps (PWAs). iOS also allows you to save sites that are not actually PWAs to your Home Screen. These are essentially bookmarks and would be required to open in the default browser. While PWAs would use the browser that they were created with.
 
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I confirm, tracking pixels and fingerprinting are not legal -- without explicit and informed consent -- according to the RGPD. Unfortunately, a lot of sites don't play the game, by omission or ignorance.
There are also an awful lot of sites that deposit cookies, send emails, etc. even if you refuse. I haven't made any statistics, but I think that if I were careful, I could file complaints for non-confirmation every week!

For the Americans reading this, I understand that cookie banners are annoying, but if sites didn't stuff their pages with trackers, etc. we wouldn't be in this mess. It's normal to ask permission before collecting personal data.
Unfortunately, this practice has been commonplace for 20 years now, and should have been regulated much earlier.

The DPAs (Data Protection Authorities) of the various European countries are expected to take action in the event of infringement. Some play the game and make a lot of convictions (Spain for example) but others are much more lax (France), unfortunately.
The French agency (CNIL) closes a lot of complaints by simply issuing reminders (but there are a lot of repeat offences without any effort at compliance, and yet no sentences). When it comes to companies' wallets, it's strange: they act quickly. I hope things will improve in France.
I always reject the cookies if prompted - even if it takes me 15 minutes to reject them all.... and yet.

Screenshot 2024-02-09 at 20.00.53.png
 
Here is what a PWA is on iOS:
--The same files (HTML, JScript, CSS) running at the website in Safari are downloaded.
--The same local storage (IndexdedDB etc.) used by Safari is used by the PWA.
--The local storage is separated from that used by Safari (which gets automatically deleted).
--The local storage is not automatically deleted (permenant).
--The PWA runs in a separate browser window run by Safari that only shows your app.
--Because of the downloads the PWA can run while offline.
--A true PWA provides a manifest file at the website describing how all this works to the browser.

If the author below is describing the security of Safari, the efficiencies of Safari, the Safari security model, and the hacks/stacks of HTML/JS/CSS then the points are relevant. I think, though, that Safari is likely the most secure, efficient, and capable app on iOS for website-level needs (which can be quite astounding when done right), so we have a difference of opinion.

PWAs are supposed to be run by the browser that was used to download them even if that browser is not the default. This was not an issue when Safari was the only browser on iOS. Now that Chrome might have been used to DL the PWA, Apple likely has some changes to make to the PWA process to ensure Chrome not Safari runs the PWA.

In other words, if you are on a web page that you find very useful, and you want access to it while off-line and you want its local storage to not get auto-deleted you can download it as a PWA and access it directly from an icon on your home screen. If you want to keep using it after browsing to the site in Safari (Chrome, etc.) you can do that also.

HTH.

I'm not discriminating against any browser. They are all terrible. The whole conceptual model of application delivery via the web is just horrible. Applications should be fully disconnected and synchronised. Core Data is an absolutely glorious idea in this case, but a slightly iffy implementation.

Safari is probably the least bad browser these days due to the shackles it has so I at least agree with you there. Also it is the least politicised.
 
I always reject the cookies if prompted - even if it takes me 15 minutes to reject them all.... and yet.
That's where browsers with proper privacy-oriented addons (like uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger) comes in handy.

That's why EU's DMA and proper 3rd party browser support makes so much sense. Even when Safari is quite good from the privacy standpoint - there's still some room for the improvement, which Firefox with addons mentioned does offer.
1707514521236.png
1707514540872.png
 
That's where browsers with proper privacy-oriented addons (like uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger) comes in handy.

That's why EU's DMA and proper 3rd party browser support makes so much sense. Even when Safari is quite good from the privacy standpoint - there's still some room for the improvement, which Firefox with addons mentioned does offer.
View attachment 2347832View attachment 2347833

Agree with this. They should have left extensions in there. Safari + uBlock origin would be orders of magnitude better than Safari + AdGuard.

Ideally though, strategic airstrikes on advertising companies would be a better expenditure of money 🧐
 
I always reject the cookies if prompted - even if it takes me 15 minutes to reject them all.... and yet.

View attachment 2347803
The problem here is that website editors mark some tracker cookies as required, meaning you can't refuse them. 🤬 The only way to solve this issue would be to file complaints each time it occurs, in hopes that legal actions are taken.
 
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Thank you very much for this extensive explanation!

By the way, I guess you cannot use extensions on PWA, right? Or is it a way to run a web-app with browser extensions?
Content blockers run fine for me in all PWAs.
Sure you can have an ad blocker and think that is doing something, just blocking ads from loading - but what about everyone else? Annoying cookie prompts were because the EU mandated it, so you think you have a choice about being tracked by... tracking cookies. The reality is it just an inconvenience to anyone who cares to try and stop a cookie... while still being tracked.

Meanwhile tracking pixels gather everything about you 😂
Cooke popups being annoying is the developer's way of projecting their annoyance at the customer. No one prevents them from having a normal cookie disclaimer but most choose to make it impractical so that everyone just clicks "accept", while the law outlines that objecting must not be harder. With developers carbon copying all their ads into the hidden legitimate interest tab, that is exactly what they do.

I think tracking pixels is a different topic because that's first-party tracking, and not simply sharing your data with third parties that are unknown to you.
These are essentially bookmarks and would be required to open in the default browser. While PWAs would use the browser that they were created with.
That would mean that if my main browser is Chrome and I use Safari to create the PWA, it should still work as a PWA. However, the code outlined that it doesn't even do that anymore.
I always reject the cookies if prompted - even if it takes me 15 minutes to reject them all.... and yet.

View attachment 2347803
Websites breaking the law doesn't mean that the law is bad.
 
That would mean that if my main browser is Chrome and I use Safari to create the PWA, it should still work as a PWA. However, the code outlined that it doesn't even do that anymore.
Like I said, there are conflicting reports. See post 14. PWAs may still be working as expected. I don't know which is true.
 
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