iOS 19 and iOS 20 Must Include a Long List of Major Changes, EU Says

[surferfb]

Your first point seems to be that American law doesn't apply to a French person in America. So does French law apply then?

I am saying a French citizen doesn’t have the same US constitutional protections in America that a US citizen has, and certainly not before they clear customs. Again, I think what happened was wrong, but that is literally how the law has worked for over 200 years now. I think it’s antithetical to the founding principles of the country that it’s being enforced like that by the current administration, but unfortunately until Congress passes a law saying the executive branch can’t deny entry to the country based on what would be protected speech, the administration is legally allowed to block people into the country for their speech.

To be clear - the US notion of free speech does not apply in France or any part of the EU. The EU view applies, and it differs, so the Court cases you cite are only of passing interest to an EU Court.

I’m aware. My entire point was the EU’s remedies could likely not be applied by an American court in response to an antitrust action. So, for example, if the US Department of Justice tried something like what the EU is requiring with the DMA - mainly “write code that enables your competitors access to your intellectual property, for free”, it would likely be overturned by the US Supreme Court. I’m aware the EU doesn’t have similar protections and can compel speech.

I think EU citizens should probably be concerned about that, but until I’m an EU citizen, that’s not really something that impacts me.

 

[Banan911]

The EU isn’t actually a huge market for Apple, and the fines contemplated by the DMA dwarf Apple’s yearly profit by a significant margin.

That’s “true”. 50,43% of revenue is from US followed by Europe with 30,4% and China with 20,82%

Of course that’s not huge numbers 🤭

 

[jarman92]

That’s “true”. 50,43% of revenue is from US followed by Europe with 30,4% and China with 20,82%

Of course that’s not huge numbers 🤭

This is a common misconception. Apple uses "Europe" to report its revenue, but that group also includes all of Africa and the Middle East. And of course nearly half of all European countries are not in the EU.

So only Apple has the exact numbers, but it stands to reason that something like 15% of Apple's revenue is from the European Union--notably less than the fines contemplated by the DMA.

 

[Banan911]

This is a common misconception. Apple uses "Europe" to report its revenue, but that group also includes all of Africa and the Middle East. And of course nearly half of all European countries are not in the EU.

So only Apple has the exact numbers, but it stands to reason that something like 15% of Apple's revenue is from the European Union--notably less than the fines contemplated by the DMA.

 

[Banan911]

Of notable countries in Europe, only UK, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland is without EU. However they all have a vast number of agreements and shared legislation with EU.

If you look at a map of Europe, where is half of the countries you talk about?

Secondly how much trade do you think Apple does with Africa?

 

[jarman92]

Of notable countries in Europe, only UK, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland is without EU. However they all have a vast number of agreements and shared legislation with EU.

If you look at a map of Europe, where is half of the countries you talk about?

Secondly how much trade do you think Apple does with Africa?

You're welcome to Google a list, but there are 50 countries in Europe and 23 of them are not in the EU. Africa accounts for ~20% of the global population so, while many countries are very poor, Apple certainly makes some significant profit there. And the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel) obviously accounts for a significant portion as well.

 

[surferfb]

Of notable countries in Europe, only UK, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland is without EU. However they all have a vast number of agreements and shared legislation with EU.

If you look at a map of Europe, where is half of the countries you talk about?

Secondly how much trade do you think Apple does with Africa?

Also India, which is a bigger market for Apple than any individual EU country. In fact the two biggest countries by revenue in Apple's Europe segment, UK and India, are not in the EU.

I've seen estimates anywhere from 10-15% of Apple revenue coming from the EU. Not nothing, but puts the threat of the EU fining Apple 20% of its global revenue in perspective.

 

[Banan911]

You're welcome to Google a list, but there are 50 countries in Europe and 23 of them are not in the EU. Africa accounts for ~20% of the global population so, while many countries are very poor, Apple certainly makes some significant profit there. And the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel) obviously accounts for a significant portion as well.

I don’t need to Google a list for you. I asked you. Also I’m European. I know where I live.

Of the 50 countries which geographically could be considered as part of Europe, but technically in reality really aren’t are: Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and etc.

Then we have countries that are so small, that they main contribution to the list is to make it longer like: Vatican, San Marino, Gilbraltar, Monaco, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of Man, Lichtenstein and etc.

In other words. All the major European countries are all part of the EU, and the rest more less follows EU legislation.

I’m constantly mind blown by the American entitlement and delusional thinking. It’s like you fail to understand there’s a world outside the US and that you’re actually only a part of the world. Not the entire world. In fact the future does not belong to the US. Other countries /regions out there are moving fast and with the way you behave lately no one is gonna look your way. Your days are over. The world had enough. The US is very soon obsolete

 

[turbineseaplane]

Logging in for another day of "EU watch"

 

[jarman92]

I don’t need to Google a list for you. I asked you. Also I’m European. I know where I live.

Of the 50 countries which geographically could be considered as part of Europe, but technically in reality really aren’t are: Russia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and etc.

Then we have countries that are so small, that they main contribution to the list is to make it longer like: Vatican, San Marino, Gilbraltar, Monaco, Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of Man, Lichtenstein and etc.

In other words. All the major European countries are all part of the EU, and the rest more less follows EU legislation.

I’m constantly mind blown by the American entitlement and delusional thinking. It’s like you fail to understand there’s a world outside the US and that you’re actually only a part of the world. Not the entire world. In fact the future does not belong to the US. Other countries /regions out there are moving fast and with the way you behave lately no one is gonna look your way. Your days are over. The world had enough. The US is very soon obsolete

Thanks for the enlightening anti-American rant, but it both misrepresents what I said and is entirely irrelevant to my argument.

The fact remains that the EU accounts for less of Apple's yearly profits than the company faces in fines under the DMA.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Thanks for the enlightening anti-American rant, but it both misrepresents what I said and is entirely irrelevant to my argument.

The fact remains that the EU accounts for less of Apple's yearly profits than the company faces in fines under the DMA.

Oh .. so clearly just pull out of the EU then, right?

 

[jarman92]

Oh .. so clearly just pull out of the EU then, right?

If these requirements stand Apple may very well be forced to do that. Or at the very least stop releasing new features and products there.

 

[Pudlo]

A safety hazard and what cable is used to charge a device are two very different things. One can harm people and one is a plug to charge your phone. By that argument why don't we replace the R&D departments of companies with government representatives since they want to micromanage how a company develops their products? Why don't we outlaw patents because they make it more difficult for competitors?

Why US cars have much thicker bumpers, symetric front lights and can use stop lights to show directions? BTW. 3 years more of Trump and there will be no patents bc there will be no world organization left. So yeah, not sure why US government outlaw NATO and others by calling Canada 51th state etc. but noone will give a f%#ck about US patents in 5 years time.

Apple Music has support for AAC, AIFF, ALAC, MP3 and WAV as well as HE-AAC.

None of which is lossless compressed

iPhones have had FLAC support since iOS 11 and the iPhone 7, just not in the Apple Music app. It’s true that Apple Music doesn’t support FLAC playback, but there are plenty of other apps that do. I use FLAC myself when I’m not streaming from Apple Music.

Use other apps then, I prefer to have a governement who is pushing companies to stop abusing theirpower by introducing closed formats.

If you’re in the EU you can install from third party sources in iOS. Samsung not bothering to make an application for their headphones proprietary control functions isn’t really the fault of Apple though. Again, make it a standard.

Bc Apple was so thoughtfull or bc EU pushed them to do so.

I doubt the EU has much interest in this since there is very little consumer demand for FLAC. Most people use whatever their streaming service provides.

YEah people were pushed to throw away their CD collections bc there was no easy and nice way to use them with ther iphones. So I agree, Apple closing ALAC was exactly done to push people to streaming. Wahts funniens, Apple is considering themself an eco company

ALAC is open source and royalty free so why doesn't Android support it? Why can't I unbox a Samsung and transfer my ALAC collection and start listening? Probably the same reason Apple don't support FLAC in Apple Music. Lack of customer demand.

Was closed for 10 years. Noone is using it now.

iOS has plenty of features. If they aren't the features a consumer wants they are free to get some other product. Again that's how consumer choice works. If a consumer doesn't like BMW they can go buy an Audi. If they don't like Miele dishwashers they can buy a Bosch. If they don't like the iPhone they can buy a Samsung. Or a Google Pixel, or a Sony.

World has plenty of coutnries. If Apple doesn't want to implement features people want, they can go sell their products elsewhere. Again, thats how the world works. In democracy we chose our governments to represents us outisde and EU is doing just that. We want to have working headphones but Apple is not listening so we use institiutions to push apple to do as we want. Ofc if someone loves big tech companies like Tesla and loves totalitarizm and sig hailing CEOs its up to them. In Europe we have history of sighailing people and we don't want it anymore, look what happend to Tesla sales in Europe after Musk sig hailing during Trump inauguration, in 3 years TEsla will withdraw from EU.
If a consumer thinks BMW is wokring in a dangerous way, they can ask governemt to penalize BMW and push them to correct their product. If my Miele dishwasher decides it does not want to clean black dishes for whatever reason I can go to my government and ask them to cancel Miele from our market.

I think you don't understand democracy. EU is a democracy where people chose their representative to represent them and demand for them their rights vs other countries and big tech companies. US is a technocracy where their chose their president but it is some random owner of a big tech who is rulling and deciding who gets money and who is not so it is a valid argument that it is a technocracy where Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos just paid for Trump to win os they can rule. It will not wokr in EU bc we really don't care about some random big tech companies.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

If these requirements stand Apple may very well be forced to do that. Or at the very least stop releasing new features and products there.

Apple is not forced to do anything regarding the DMA the same way developers aren’t forced to adhere to the Apple App Store. I remember some years ago people arguing the later when someone complained about App Store policies and Apple the approach. New policies usually came into effect and everyone either comply or leave.

Same thing here. The EU is an ecosystem.

PS: See the fallacy of this reasoning? I think it is a fallacy, yet if that is the standard of the debate it goes both ways.

PS: I personally think this time DMA is going a bit far. At least for the cases mentioned and for now. I posted my discontent this time.

 

[Abazigal]

If these requirements stand Apple may very well be forced to do that. Or at the very least stop releasing new features and products there.

I do wonder how much tractions those features will gain if Apple designs it such that they will work only in the EU.

For example, imagine if pebble watches gain the ability to reply to notifications on your iPhone, but only when the user is in the EU (similar to how third party app stores work). Or Pebble has to release a EU-specific version of their app (which would further increase their development costs).

Android phones can transfer files to iOS devices and vice versa, but only within the EU.

We haven't heard much about third party app stores gaining traction in the EU. It seems that the majority of users prefer to stick to the iOS App Store. Maybe the core tech fee has had some success in dissuading developers from offering their apps outside of the App Store. To date, we have only had coverage of one emulator, one utility and one porn app?

I will be very surprised if Apple decided to just open up all those features and make them accessible to all developers worldwide in iOS 19. Something tells me this is just the beginning, and the EU is not going to stop here. They will just keep demanding that Apple make more and more concessions further down the road and in this regard, I can understanding Apple dragging their feet and not wanting to capitulate too quickly or too readily.

 

[psingh01]

I am saying a French citizen doesn’t have the same US constitutional protections in America that a US citizen has, and certainly not before they clear customs. Again, I think what happened was wrong, but that is literally how the law has worked for over 200 years now. I think it’s antithetical to the founding principles of the country that it’s being enforced like that by the current administration, but unfortunately until Congress passes a law saying the executive branch can’t deny entry to the country based on what would be protected speech, the administration is legally allowed to block people into the country for their speech.


I’m aware. My entire point was the EU’s remedies could likely not be applied by an American court in response to an antitrust action. So, for example, if the US Department of Justice tried something like what the EU is requiring with the DMA - mainly “write code that enables your competitors access to your intellectual property, for free”, it would likely be overturned by the US Supreme Court. I’m aware the EU doesn’t have similar protections and can compel speech.

I think EU citizens should probably be concerned about that, but until I’m an EU citizen, that’s not really something that impacts me.

The US Constitution applies to everyone in the US. Not just citizens. That said, nothing in there says someone with a travel visa has a constitutional right to enter the country.

Dept of Homeland Security claims he was denied entry due to having unauthorized data from a US lab. Time will tell which version is true.

 

[psingh01]

Using a prioprietary charging cable had a negative environmental impact. EU reacted and thanks to EU we don't need some special Apple chargers anymore and I can charge my iphone from my friends android charger or from any shop etc. Apple fanboys were using same arguments as you are using right now to defend Apples magic cable.

Yeah...the story was the same with Apples m4a lossless music format. They just took mpeg-4 and made close it so just only apple products could use it. So no android app could use/play apple music without struggle. Happily it only made open sourced FLAC format so popular that Apple was pushed to open source ALAC to prevent losing market.
BTW. Did you try to use a Samsung device with a macbook for example? Amazing experience just bc Apple made it so by closing all the doors. So for example I use Galaxy buds with my macbook and I can install a open source made by a geek app to support all the buds advanced properties but it is only possible bc the app is partly illegal and if written by Samsung it would be taken down immediately clearly showing that the barrier is strictly political made by apple.

Apple got rid of mini jack and invented airpods, great! So with older iphones I could use my grado hp, now with my 16PM i can only use apple heaphones. I don't care if you love Apple so much or not, but for me the fact that I can use fully only one brand of hps with my phone is stupid. Like imagine you only only buy Ford tires for your ford car.

I moved to galaxy after having 3 pairs of airpods which randomly all died (I mean it was always about on of the sides dying)

I agree on the Airdrop thing. I think it is an Apple ecosystyem feature. Asking apple to support all other devices is kidna stupid.

You don't understand the problem. The api is closed not to prevent connecting other devices. It closed to prevent other manufacturers like Samsung etc. from writing apps to support advanced things like noise reduction etc. The hardware is there but you can't legally write an app like: here you have a samsung app and you can change setting of your buds just bc api is closed meaning if you use the bits from it to support your device, the whole app is illegal bc is using Apple copyrighted bits for BT for example.



YEah that's the reason why Apple is losing the chinese market so tremendously. Hope they will lose EU market too and will live happily in a US small buble with closed protocols only for US citizens.

You know you can connect the headphones to the usbc port with the proper adapter? I use my old wired EarPods from iphone 6 with a 3.5mm to usbc adapter. It’s just a few bucks.

Also any bluetooth headset works. Not just apple brand.

 

[R2FX]

I think you don't understand democracy. EU is a democracy where people chose their representative to represent them and demand for them their rights vs other countries and big tech companies. US is a technocracy where their chose their president but it is some random owner of a big tech who is rulling and deciding who gets money and who is not so it is a valid argument that it is a technocracy where Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos just paid for Trump to win os they can rule. It will not wokr in EU bc we really don't care about some random big tech companies.

if you think we have a democracy in EU (EU of all things!!!) than you better do some reading...your technical insights are quite 'insightful' but this last paragraph is a joke... nobody votes for EU commissioners from the 300 mil citizens living on the continent - Americans at least vote directly for their president, who the heck elected lying Ursula???

/OT

 

[4k78]

According to the UN, there are 44 countries in Europe.

 

[weckart]

if you think we have a democracy in EU (EU of all things!!!) than you better do some reading...your technical insights are quite 'insightful' but this last paragraph is a joke... nobody votes for EU commissioners from the 300 mil citizens living on the continent - Americans at least vote directly for their president, who the heck elected lying Ursula???

/OT

You do not vote directly for a president. Case in point, Clinton won the 2016 election but Trump was elected president. You vote for a mandate in a state electoral college. The electoral college representative of that state should, in theory, cast a vote or votes (depending on the population of that state) for the candidate attaining the most votes in that state. However, the representative can ignore that and vote how he or she deems appropriate.

This system is anything but democratic. A swing and a wide miss.

 

[Shirasaki]

That's more along what I would do, but they don't have the balls to do it.

Yeah I figured that probably is the case. Companies just can’t part ways with money and “do the right thing”. It would be amusing to see Apple stock drops by 30% after they quit EU entirely. Last time I checked they said EU contributed 20% of their global revenue?

You know Steve would have given the EU the finger and say "have fun explaining to your citizens why they can't buy iPhones anymore. Give us a call when you change your mind."

To be clear, I don't think that would be the best course for Apple, but it'd certainly be entertaining.

That probably would not be and I suspect there would be a huge stock price crash. But it’s going to be amusing to see when it happens. It’s just that there are still enough people who are adamant to maintain the status quo and won’t budge from insane demands like Apple quitting EU. Hard to give up money I guess.

 

[Shirasaki]

YEah that's the reason why Apple is losing the chinese market so tremendously. Hope they will lose EU market too and will live happily in a US small buble with closed protocols only for US citizens.

Apple losing Chinese market would tank their stock price drastically. Losing EU? Apple will never become a trillion dollar company ever again. But hey, those US fella would rejoice saying Apple finally becomes a US homegrown brand again, with phones manufactured in US, made for US market and only sold in US. Next step should be FBI CIA etc chasing down Apple’s offshore companies so they are forced to pay their fare share of taxes again.

What I don't want is iOS and iPadOS to be torn apart by the EU and transformed into something that isn't the product I chose and the product I want.

What you don’t want may not be what other people want, and everyone has their own list of preferences and desires. Yes I’ve heard lots of people expressing their desire to let iOS be closed, proprietary, not touched by foreign governments etc etc, yet we are here. Maybe there aren’t enough voices to sway the decision? Idk. Thing is, if iOS has descended into hell, you can leave too.

 

[surferfb]

Yeah I figured that probably is the case. Companies just can’t part ways with money and “do the right thing”. It would be amusing to see Apple stock drops by 30% after they quit EU entirely. Last time I checked they said EU contributed 20% of their global revenue?

EU is somewhere around 10-12% I believe. Apple’s “Europe” market is larger, but includes non-EU European countries, India, Turkey, Israel, the Middle East and Africa.

Still a big chunk of of change, but not 20%.

That probably would not be and I suspect there would be a huge stock price crash. But it’s going to be amusing to see when it happens. It’s just that there are still enough people who are adamant to maintain the status quo and won’t budge from insane demands like Apple quitting EU. Hard to give up money I guess.

Of course it would be terrible for the stock. I don’t think anyone actually thinks they’d do it. I think the DMA is a terrible, terrible law that steals Apple’s intellectual property annd will chill innovation and even I don’t think they should leave the EU over it.

 

[j26]

Apple losing Chinese market would tank their stock price drastically. Losing EU? Apple will never become a trillion dollar company ever again. But hey, those US fella would rejoice saying Apple finally becomes a US homegrown brand again, with phones manufactured in US, made for US market and only sold in US. …

The EU and Chinese markets are about the same size for Apple. Losing either would be quite damaging to Apples shareholders Losing both would be a disaster.
The EU is about 2/3 of Europes population, and includes most of the more affluent countries, which is where Apples market lies

Manufacturing aint coming back to the US without drastic price increases which will affect market share in the home turf.

 

[TracesOfArsenic]

At the expense of taking Apple’s intellectual property away from them. Should Bose and Sony be required to give their proprietary audio profiles to Apple for use in AirPods?

haha that's not quite an accurate comparison. Sony or Bose don't provide a platform (ie OS) holding back features that are made available for AirPods for no reason other than to give Apple an advantage over competitors. It's not exactly consumer friendly.