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Think you missed the point. The dma is what’s yours is mine philosophy. So why go through the effort of developing new exciting innovative functionality when it will be given away?
Everything these days is all software anyway. Nintendo built the Switch platform for developers to make games. They do not to my knowledge withhold any dev tools or technology to give their first party titles and unfair advantage over 3rd parties. The competition of that software keeps Nintendo on their toes, forcing them to innovate and create better games. At the same time Nintendo's own controllers are well known as being pretty shoddy. 3rd party options are often a better choice.

It is perfectly possible for a company with a vertical stack that creates hardware and software to run it as an open platform and still offer value as a first party provider to customers.

Nintendo are not a monopoly on their own platform because buyers still have the option of buying carts from a variety of physical retailers.
 
EU = thieves and thugs.
Maybe there’s a way big tech (Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc.) could “turn off” their tech in the entire EU for a few days, a week, could be interesting.
So we should risk a worldwide economic meltdown because some fanpeople are sore the EU has asked Apple to allow 3rd parties to access it's tilt functions on iPad Pencils?
 
EU to need enforce a price cap on Apple prices. Not only on the products but the upgrade options too. RAM and SSD prices are ridiculous.
 
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EU to need enforce a price cap on Apple prices. Not only on the products but the upgrade options too. RAM and SSD prices are ridiculous.
Deaf Ears, mate. From the rambles on the last few pages it looks like some people would be happy if Apple turned off all their EU services and then trippled the price for the rest of the world to make up the lost revenue.
 
EU to need enforce a price cap on Apple prices. Not only on the products but the upgrade options too. RAM and SSD prices are ridiculous.
The EU needs to step aside and let the free market decide. These are not monopolistic policies, anyone can start a computer company. Go to CDW or NewEgg and hit play.
 
Again, while Apple isn't going to leave the EU, the EU does not make up 25% of their global revenue, more like 8-10%.

“Europe is the second-largest market for Apple. Apple’s revenue in Europe amounted to $24.12 billion in Q2 2024, 26.58% of total quarterly revenue.”

I gave you a source in my previous post. What is yours?
 
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I mean, I’m no math guru, but if they violate 3 regulations in the EU… each with a penalty of 10% of global revenue, it would actually be cheaper to just leave the market.
But they are not going to violate any regulation, because they know what is good for them
 
Right. They are requiring that apple give away its ip for free.
There is no IP being giving away for free. Developers pay to use Apple's SDKs.
No it gets diluted.
No, it does not. Your experience stays the same, no one is forcing you to use 3rd party accessories.
Yea on the back of someone’s else’s hard work.
That's a silly argument.
No, it’s the exact argument.
No it is not.
You can buy whatever you want. Apple isn’t required to produce a product for your specs.
Well it turns out Apple is required to. RCS is now part of iOS, I can change from default stock applications, 3rd party App store is now on iOS and they will also be forced to stop gate keeping accessories integration.
No, it’s square on the money.
No it is not.
Do what you want with the product. Companies don’t have to help you out.
Yes they are. Seriously right to repair says hello. Apple is required by law to provide parts to repair their devices.
Vote with your $$$.
I do all the time. I'm also a proponent of government serving the people by forcing companies to make their products better. See RCS on iOS.
And you should be able to out a Porsche engine in a Honda accord.
And you can, you can buy the engine and swap it yourself if you have the skill to do so.
 
Friendly reminder that iPadOS does not meet the quantitative thresholds defined in the DMA that determine whether or not the law applies to it, but the EU declared iPadOS as a gatekeeper that the DMA applies to anyway.
So the EU is just making it up as they go along, eh? I hope Apple prevails in court, but it seems the bureaucrats have rigged the game.
 
Nintendo built the Switch platform for developers to make games. They do not to my knowledge withhold any dev tools or technology to give their first party titles and unfair advantage over 3rd parties. The competition of that software keeps Nintendo on their toes, forcing them to innovate and create better games. At the same time Nintendo's own controllers are well known as being pretty shoddy. 3rd party options are often a better choice.
Oops, you are wrong again on this one. Nintendo does impose 3rd party accessory control by licensing and most of the licensees do not implement some proprietary features like the HD Rumble. We do however, see some clones on AliExpress that does implement that and is super cheap, but those are probably not licensed controllers anyway.

You can say that the HD Rumble works really bad in reality and nobody likes that (I don't either), but still, it is almost exclusive to the first party controllers. It is just works that bad so that you don't think it is an "advantage".

I don't see why that is a problem either. 3rd party PlayStation controllers work just as well the official ones.

Oh and this is not true either. PlayStation 5 has almost no 3rd party controllers available and the only alternatives are all licensed by Sony, and all of them lacking Premium DualSense features. The DualSense tech is even a Sony patent called "Haptics Metadata In A Spectating Stream".

If you want more, I can even give you Xbox examples. From November 12, 2023, Microsoft will no longer allow unauthorized third-party accessories to be used with its Xbox consoles.


Actually, on the game controllers, both Sony and Microsoft tried hard to be innovative despite they "gave them first party advantages", but it is the third party does not want to follow so that the innovative features was only implemented in very few game titles, and most of them are first-party games.

Again, innovation comes from what people on this planet wants, not from random regulator's rule.
 
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Oops, you are wrong again on this one. Nintendo does impose 3rd party accessory control by licensing and most of the licensees do not implement some proprietary features like the HD Rumble. We do however, see some clones on AliExpress that does implement that and is super cheap, but those are probably not licensed controllers anyway.

You can say that the HD Rumble works really bad in reality and nobody likes that (I don't either), but still, it is almost exclusive to the first party controllers. It is just works that bad so that you don't think it is an "advantage".



Oh and this is not true either. PlayStation 5 has almost no 3rd party controllers available and the only alternatives are all licensed by Sony, and all of them lacking Premium DualSense features. The DualSense tech is even a Sony patent called "Haptics Metadata In A Spectating Stream".

If you want more, I can even give you Xbox examples. From November 12, 2023, Microsoft will no longer allow unauthorized third-party accessories to be used with its Xbox consoles.


Actually, on the game controllers, both Sony and Microsoft tried hard to be innovative despite they "gave them first party advantages", but it is the third party does not want to follow so that the innovative features was only implemented in very few game titles, and most of them are first-party games.

Again, innovation comes from what people on this planet wants, not from random regulator's rule.
There is a lot of clutching at straws here. Nintendo doesn't disallow software developers from using features like HD rumble. Controllers also use rumble. Software licencing still exists but then Microsoft still requires this to run Windows on the open PC platform as do Valve to publish on Steam. A quick Google search shows at least a dozen PS5 controllers.

Innovation isn't about regulation, it's about competition and you don't find that on closed off platforms. This is why Apple haven't really done much with the iPhone for a long time and why the Watch stagnates year after year. The point of the legislation in this case is to give Apple more competition thereby making them innovate to stay on top.

And a lot of the time it is never about what users want at all. Our old friend Steve Jobs knew this first and foremost with the old quote about 'showing people what they never knew they needed'. Phones these days are full of unergonomic software and hardware problems the market fails to address because it gave users bigger screens to absorb social media. Don't believe me? Try reaching the top of your phone screen with your thumb without resorting to some weird hand king fu or the reachability fudge.

It moved from being proactive to reactive and we all lost out. There seems to be a feedback loop around here with people not wanting Apple to have competition but complaining about a lack of innovation. You can't have both.
 
A quick Google search shows at least a dozen PS5 controllers.
Don't you see the big "SONY licensed" on the product page? And even the very expensive ones like the Victrix one is missing dualsense feature like the adaptive triggers, just like the 3rd party switch controllers missing HD rumble. You can say "Oh they can use", but I highly doubt. If they can and it is easy to implement why it is missing and only imeplemented in the official one? Just a google search claiming them do exist does not mean those works as good as the first party one. If you really did the research and tried to use 3rd party controllers on PS5 you would get what I meant. Anyway, the 3rd party controller market is now explicitly controlled and licensed by console vendors and it is not that free as you think it is, and 3rd party controllers does not work as good as you think they are. It used to be loose in the previous gen, but the control is more strict now.

Software licencing still exists but then Microsoft still requires this to run Windows on the open PC platform as do Valve to publish on Steam.
This is irrelevant. Console and PC are different markets and they don't even compete. This is something like comparing iOS to macOS where you can even install alternate OS on the Mac even on Apple Silicon.

Innovation isn't about regulation, it's about competition and you don't find that on closed off platforms.
All gaming consoles are closed off platforms by your standard and I can hardly agree with you that there is no competition on the console, plus there is no alternate game stores on game consoles either. If you want to play Super Smash Bros you have to buy Nintendo Switch because that is not on PlayStation and Xbox and that is an Nintendo first party title. So technically nobody can compete with Nintendo making Super Mario games legally. But the problem is, they don't have to because there are tons of other games that people can make.

And no, I would not call the relationship between 1st party controllers and 3rd party controllers "competition". There is no competition but only collaboration because technically you have to be approved first to even make a controller for the console.

And if we look back at the iPad accessories it is already much better than gaming consoles or at least on par. You don't have to be licensed by Apple to make Bluetooth and USB accessories. For pencils, you are using the Apple technology built into iPad and it screen which means it is unreasonable to provide you the technologies that made by Apple. The same applies to Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. A lot of the third party pencils are actually reusing Logitech Crayon's protocol which Logitech paid the license for, and Logitech did not pay for the pressure stroke or Apple does not want to sell that, we don't know, just like we don't know why adaptive triggers are missing on 3rd party PS5 controllers. But I think you already see the problem here. There is no competition but pure collaboration because you are asking to use a technology invented by another company.

And just FYI: wacom introduced bamboo pencils for iPad that does support pressure stroke in their own Apps and selected apps. Of cause it is not like the Apple pencil that is guaranteed to work everywhere.

IMHO the case is just:

- You can do your best to not use Apple technology to make an accessory
- You can only do that good without Apple's proprietary techs
- Now you need to pay for a license to do better, and that cost would make your accessory to have a less competitive price
- You give up, just make a worse but much cheaper accessory

It moved from being proactive to reactive and we all lost out. There seems to be a feedback loop around here with people not wanting Apple to have competition but complaining about a lack of innovation. You can't have both.
But the problem is Apple is facing intensive competition and the iPhone sales is struggling to improve in recent years. Yes the market share is still stable but denying the existence of competition is just not reasonable to me. It is very easy to switch smartphone brands nowadays.

Our old friend Steve Jobs knew this first and foremost with the old quote about 'showing people what they never knew they needed'.
This requires good vision for the product guy to find something that people want before everybody else, and unfortunately this is not for Tim Cook's Apple. They tried with the Vision Pro but they failed.
 
I'm from EU, but what the duck EU?! looks like they want to collect all that cash. Covid spending free was fun i guess? But jesus, maybe Apple should stop selling in EU. EU then could buy the crap android stuff with all the chinese spyware. That should be fun. Heck, the market is free, they can do it now if they want. But business is business. Apple will stay as long as they make money. Just worried, that EU might ruin their experience and bloat the software..
 
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Gaming consoles are closed off platforms by your standard and I can hardly agree with you that there is no competition on the console, plus there is no other stores for console games.
By virtue of supporting physical media, every store is a store for console games. If the next gen ditches disks and online becomes the only distribution method, then I am sure competitors like Epic will have something to say. It's why we have multiple storefronts on Mac and PC.

And it's why we should not have them on Android and iOS. When you have a market duopoly (because it is a duopoly) that has created a platform, which evolved from a product of 90% the world population there needs to be ways to make it easier to start your own storefront and not rely on faceless corporations. Kind of like how the internet was 1000% better before social media aggregated everything!

If the market still supported webOS, and Windows Phone and each had a 25% market share the arguement to open platforms would be irrelevent. But when Google actively pay Apple tens of billions of dollars a year to effectively stifle competition, governments have to act.

The US government won't do it because the populace is notoriously suspicious of state overreach. Fair enough. Which other large economy will do it: Russia who are to be treated with suspicion? China for whom Apple provide a large trade in silicon? Thus it falls to a collective supranational that has history in aligning standards for the common benefit to do the job one state alone cannot.
 
There is a lot of clutching at straws here. Nintendo doesn't disallow software developers from using features like HD rumble. Controllers also use rumble. Software licencing still exists but then Microsoft still requires this to run Windows on the open PC platform as do Valve to publish on Steam. A quick Google search shows at least a dozen PS5 controllers.

Innovation isn't about regulation, it's about competition and you don't find that on closed off platforms. This is why Apple haven't really done much with the iPhone for a long time and why the Watch stagnates year after year. The point of the legislation in this case is to give Apple more competition thereby making them innovate to stay on top.

And a lot of the time it is never about what users want at all. Our old friend Steve Jobs knew this first and foremost with the old quote about 'showing people what they never knew they needed'. Phones these days are full of unergonomic software and hardware problems the market fails to address because it gave users bigger screens to absorb social media. Don't believe me? Try reaching the top of your phone screen with your thumb without resorting to some weird hand king fu or the reachability fudge.

It moved from being proactive to reactive and we all lost out. There seems to be a feedback loop around here with people not wanting Apple to have competition but complaining about a lack of innovation. You can't have both.
A watch paired with an iPhone will only ever be able to provide as much functionality as the iPhone supports. Even if all smartwatch makers got access to the same APIs that Apple has access to, that just means all smart watches will provide the same functionality. In all circumstances with the iPhone, the functionality an app/accessory has is entirely dependent on Apple developing that functionality into iOS. Having more smartwatch competition isn't suddenly going to make Apple do more with iOS. In fact it might slow Apple down because it becomes more burdensome for Apple to develop that new functionality.
 
“Europe is the second-largest market for Apple. Apple’s revenue in Europe amounted to $24.12 billion in Q2 2024, 26.58% of total quarterly revenue.”

I gave you a source in my previous post. What is yours?
Europe =/= EU
 
A watch paired with an iPhone will only ever be able to provide as much functionality as the iPhone supports. Even if all smartwatch makers got access to the same APIs that Apple has access to, that just means all smart watches will provide the same functionality. In all circumstances with the iPhone, the functionality an app/accessory has is entirely dependent on Apple developing that functionality into iOS. Having more smartwatch competition isn't suddenly going to make Apple do more with iOS. In fact it might slow Apple down because it becomes more burdensome for Apple to develop that new functionality.
The arguement might actually be the inverse: The Apple Watch shouldn't serve as another lock keeping somebody in the ecosystem. The EU may well force Apple to make the Watch compatible with Android! This would be a huge benefit for Apple of course as much like the iPod led to higher Mac sales from Windows users jumping ship Android compatibility, of some sort at least might sell more iPhones as a result. It also gives Android owners an option of a great smartwatch.

Win/Win.

(Well, apart from a few posters a few pages back who don't want Android users to become part of their imaginary club)
 
There is no IP being giving away for free. Developers pay to use Apple's SDKs.

No, it does not. Your experience stays the same, no one is forcing you to use 3rd party accessories.

That's a silly argument.

No it is not.

Well it turns out Apple is required to. RCS is now part of iOS, I can change from default stock applications, 3rd party App store is now on iOS and they will also be forced to stop gate keeping accessories integration.

No it is not.

Yes they are. Seriously right to repair says hello. Apple is required by law to provide parts to repair their devices.

I do all the time. I'm also a proponent of government serving the people by forcing companies to make their products better. See RCS on iOS.

And you can, you can buy the engine and swap it yourself if you have the skill to do so.
The dma is giving away apples ip. It’s a Robin Hood scenario. It was crafted in such a way to catch apple; additionally there seems to be on the fly interpretations of the rules.

The dma is nothing more than a giveaway plain and simple.
 
Everything these days is all software anyway. Nintendo built the Switch platform for developers to make games. They do not to my knowledge withhold any dev tools or technology to give their first party titles and unfair advantage over 3rd parties. The competition of that software keeps Nintendo on their toes, forcing them to innovate and create better games. At the same time Nintendo's own controllers are well known as being pretty shoddy. 3rd party options are often a better choice.

It is perfectly possible for a company with a vertical stack that creates hardware and software to run it as an open platform and still offer value as a first party provider to customers.

Nintendo are not a monopoly on their own platform because buyers still have the option of buying carts from a variety of physical retailers.
Regardless apple isn’t a monopoly either because the same floods and services can be found in other platforms.
 
The dma is giving away apples ip. It’s a Robin Hood scenario. It was crafted in such a way to catch apple; additionally there seems to be on the fly interpretations of the rules.

The dma is nothing more than a giveaway plain and simple.
I find your choice of sig interesting. Would you not be annoyed if your local Walmart/Tesco was the only shop in town?
 
The dma is giving away apples ip. It’s a Robin Hood scenario. It was crafted in such a way to catch apple; additionally there seems to be on the fly interpretations of the rules.

The dma is nothing more than a giveaway plain and simple.
Robin Hood is a legendary heroic outlaw originally depicted in English folklore and subsequently featured in literature, theatre, and cinema. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor.

Now you get it. The corporations have been getting rich of consumers without giving anything in return. So now they are being forced to. Lol
 
Europe =/= EU

Again, do you have any source to justify your suggestion this is a relevant comment?
Are you suggesting that the UK and Norway make up the difference between 9% and 26%?
Are you suggesting Apple could realistically exit the EU market (which is responsible for the vast majority of European revenue) but remain in the UK (but not NI), and remain in the few other European countries that, in spite of not being in the EU, adhere with all the regulations of the common market and EEA?

Apple themselves don't make any distinction between the two, so we are really talking for the sake of talking.
 
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“Europe is the second-largest market for Apple. Apple’s revenue in Europe amounted to $24.12 billion in Q2 2024, 26.58% of total quarterly revenue.”

I gave you a source in my previous post. What is yours?
Again Apple's "Europe" market segment includes the EU, all non-EU European countries (UK, Switzerland, Norway, etc.), the entire Middle East, all of Africa, and India. The UK and India are both bigger markets than any single EU country.

What is considered in Apple’s “Europe” market segment can be seen on Apple's latest 10-K on investor.apple.com - it's on Page 5 of the 2023 10-K.

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