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My focus was on iPad versus Surface, as per the thread. Between those two, the Surface is indisputably more versatile for most of these tasks (business and student use).
If you only compare it to the Surface Pro 3 with the new pen technology then maybe yes. I'm not too convinced about it though, it seems to be an equal horrible experience on both. The Surface Pro and Pro 2 are even worse due to the Wacom technology which has an offset problem as well as the display itself (they changed the display in the Surface Pro 3 to make it thinner as part of reducing the offset problem).

The iPad has some advantages, like native app support and the form factor is better suited for some tasks, but its limitations are very many.
The same can be said about the Surfaces (noisy, heavy, gets hot and has bad battery life...power comes with disadvantages as well!). It just depends on what you want to do with it so I wouldn't say the iPad or the Surface is the better one overall.

Just like anything else, writing on glass is something that you adapt to. Pen and paper isn't actually all that convenient or comfortable in many ways, but people are well adapted to it, and have adjusted to its down-sides.
Not really. The problem is control, especially with people writing with their fingers/wrists instead of their arms. The surface of both the pen and whatever you are using it on are quite important. If it is too smooth you'll have no good control, if it is too rough you also have no good control. Having no good control will show in your handwriting (chicken scratch) and you'll notice it as fatigue. Glass also has the problem of being easy to stick to although this is easy to overcome with special sleeves (Wacom has some). You don't need those for normal paper, only some people might need it.

That said - typing is generally a LOT faster than handwriting for even a mediocre typist, let alone one who spends some time learning to ten finger type. I'd say I'm 3-4 times faster with a keyboard than handwriting. Not sure why you think the opposite?
That's because most people nowadays are really lousy handwriters. They have used the keyboard too much vs actually handwriting things. Handwriting is a skill you have to maintain. If you don't then you lose the speed, you lose legibility and other things as well. Most people would also pick the keyboard instead of the pen because they do things digitally and are quicker with typing. People who have maintained their handwriting skills see little to no difference in speed. Also, in some cases speed or rather the lack thereof is very important. Being quick isn't always that good, sometimes you just need to slow down. Writing on a subpar surface (too smooth, e.g. glass or too rough) also slows you down tremendously.

Yeah - I'm going to go with - you've never seriously used the technology you're commenting about (atleast recently). The fact that you think you have to continually wake the device is a give away..and 7-8 hours of note taking I would think is pretty good..
I'm going with the same thing for you. This is actual real life findings from many people using the technology. You basically have to choose between keeping it turned on and thus lose batter life or safe batter life and lose ease of use due to having it turn on. The 7-8 hrs of note taking is wishful thinking. Windows tablets on average have less than that for battery life. If you use the machine for more than the occasional handwriting session then this might not be an issue though. I have tested this with various devices and the experience is all the same. The glass surfaces is too smooth and too hard, especially when you write with pens that have a solid plastic nib that doesn't have some form of spring. In long writing sessions this causes your hand to fatigue and ache.

Sorry buddy, but printing slides just to write on them during lecture is such a waste. Having to carry notebooks everywhere you want to study, is outdated.
Tablet pc's used to be outdated, now they're back as 2-in-1. Not being able to retain what has been taught is a bigger waste. It has been scientifically proven that handwriting makes you retain things much much better than when you do it all electronically. It has to do with the areas of the brain that you use when you handwrite vs when you do things digitally. Maybe handwriting on a digital device might be somewhere in between. The problem with digital is the added functions that allow you to record audio and such. They make you lazy and not pay as much attention as without these tools. If you don't have such tools the only thing you can do is pay attention. Paying attention and being more aware of what you need to remember is what creates good notes.

Besides that, typing or writing on paper is much more comfortable because you are not constantly fighting the pen going everywhere. During meetings using pen and paper is also much easier. You can quickly hand it to someone else and they can all use it without any problems. We've tried it with digital devices and becomes rather cumbersome mostly because everybody has their own settings that work great for them but not so much for someone else (I work at a place that sells these kind of products).

I see students with 13" Macbook pros all the time - the Surface Pro 3 + keyboard are actually cheaper and do much more.
Highly debatable. One is a Windows machine, the other a portable UNIX workstation. If you are in networking and/or security then the MBP clearly does far more than the SP3. Why? Because nearly all the tools you need are not for Windows and non-Windows support on the Surfaces is not that great (especially the writing part). I've seen it also in physics and chemistry. Some stuff simply requires the use of Macs/Linux so Windows is of no use there. Again, different devices, different uses so neither is better than the other.

And do remember: digital has its uses but it is not the answer to everything.
 
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I disagree entirely. My experience with Surface tablets is that they're not really suitable tablets. And they're not really great laptops either... they just kinda... suck.

OP will enjoy an iPad alot more because there are actually tablet-optimized applications. If he wanted a laptop, he would buy a laptop..

Well, it depends. I have a Surface 3, which I bought a few weeks ago, and my overall experience is good. It was the price of an iPad and is a far more versatile machine. Yes, it is slow and lags, but it runs full Windows and full Office. The keyboard and the trackpad could be better, but the cover containing both the keyboard and the trackpad is the work of a genius. The 3:2 screen is great; the screen format is far better than 16:9 screens out there. Battery life is pretty good. As a tablet, it is good and works in a satisfactory manner; not as good as an iPad as a tablet, though.

Overall, the Surface 3 seems to me much better value than the iPad. There could be better laptops out there, but the device you get is superior to an iPad. Definitely, in my opinion.
 
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Yes, it is slow and lags, but it runs full Windows and full Office. The keyboard and the trackpad could be better

It depends on the user. These things you mentioned means it sucks to me personally. If I need a full office suite, I'll use a full laptop. MBA would be my choice for lightweight ...

That said, I do a lot of documents with my iPad Air 2 without any complaints...

To each his own... :)
 
If you only compare it to the Surface Pro 3 with the new pen technology then maybe yes. I'm not too convinced about it though, it seems to be an equal horrible experience on both. The Surface Pro and Pro 2 are even worse due to the Wacom technology which has an offset problem as well as the display itself (they changed the display in the Surface Pro 3 to make it thinner as part of reducing the offset problem).


The same can be said about the Surfaces (noisy, heavy, gets hot and has bad battery life...power comes with disadvantages as well!). It just depends on what you want to do with it so I wouldn't say the iPad or the Surface is the better one overall.
......

In what world is the pen experience on a Surface 3 an "equal horrible experience" with an iPad? They are worlds apart and to claim otherwise is insane. Having a fat-tipped stylus that has low precision, skips, and has no pressure sensitivity is polar opposite to the stylus on the Surface 3.

You also conveniently ignored all the ways I listed that demonstrate that the Surface 3 is far more versatile than an iPad, especially for students and business users. Instead you just disagree by claiming that the pen isn't any better than the iPad with a stylus, which is complete baloney. In addition to the stylus and the attachable keyboard, you have multiple user accounts, USB port (for external keyboard, mouse for precision pointing, printer connections, thumb drives or external hard drives, etc), dockable to be used as a full computer, monitor output, SD card slot, the ability to multitask (you can't even listen to a YouTube video and type a paper at the same time), OneNote (arguably the best note-taking experience on the market currently), and so on.

I will concede entirely that the iPad is lighter, but the screen is also 1.1" smaller and you lose a lot of useful features for that.

You are aware that this thread isn't about the Surface Pro 3 but the standard Surface 3? Most of what you say indicates that you're only talking about the Pro 3 ("power comes with disadvantages", "noisy", "bad battery life") that don't apply to the Surface 3 (the topic of the thread).

We'll see how Windows 10 is on it since it seems the Surface 3 was intended to use it from the start.
 
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I find it so sad when posters assert an equivalance between pen functionality on the ipad and the surface--there is NO comparison

I said it wasn't as good on the iPad.
But to be fair, as I said, there are very few modern applications that are available that would cater to pen. OneNote, a few drawing apps... but there are very few. And I didn't find them satisfactory.
 
Okay, I'm confused. Why bother buying a tablet at all if you're going to get the Surface Pro 3? It's not even... sigh. Just. Do what you want with your money. But its frustrating as a concept. E.e If you're going to use "full windows" then just buy a laptop, honestly. You're better of getting an Android tablet with a digitizer pen than the Surface.
 
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Not really. The problem is control, especially with people writing with their fingers/wrists instead of their arms. The surface of both the pen and whatever you are using it on are quite important. If it is too smooth you'll have no good control, if it is too rough you also have no good control. Having no good control will show in your handwriting (chicken scratch) and you'll notice it as fatigue. Glass also has the problem of being easy to stick to although this is easy to overcome with special sleeves (Wacom has some). You don't need those for normal paper, only some people might need it.

Yes, the surface is important, but it's not like the current system is unusable. I have written hundreds of pages on my Surface Pro and more than that on my iPads. I'm pretty well adapted. In the future is expect a wider selection of stylus tips to be available which is the more important part,IMO just like the pen is more important than the paper.

That's because most people nowadays are really lousy handwriters. They have used the keyboard too much vs actually handwriting things. Handwriting is a skill you have to maintain. If you don't then you lose the speed, you lose legibility and other things as well. Most people would also pick the keyboard instead of the pen because they do things digitally and are quicker with typing. People who have maintained their handwriting skills see little to no difference in speed. Also, in some cases speed or rather the lack thereof is very important. Being quick isn't always that good, sometimes you just need to slow down. Writing on a subpar surface (too smooth, e.g. glass or too rough) also slows you down tremendously.

I'm not convinced this is at all true. I've been a regular writer for over a decade now, writing in my journal almost daily, first paper notebooks, then typing, now a mixture of handwritten digital notes and typing. I'd say I'm at least average for writing speed, and above-average in legibility. I would wager I hand-write about 30 WPM, as opposed to cruising at 60-80 WPM typing. I'm extremely skeptical that anyone not using short-hand writing methods is going to be in that speed range - a range that pretty much anyone can learn to type at with a bit of effort.
 
I'm not convinced this is at all true. I've been a regular writer for over a decade now, writing in my journal almost daily, first paper notebooks, then typing, now a mixture of handwritten digital notes and typing. I'd say I'm at least average for writing speed, and above-average in legibility. I would wager I hand-write about 30 WPM, as opposed to cruising at 60-80 WPM typing. I'm extremely skeptical that anyone not using short-hand writing methods is going to be in that speed range - a range that pretty much anyone can learn to type at with a bit of effort.

I think it depends on the person really. I wrote field reports for more than 25 years and they had to be fast and VERY legible. I was good, very good and very fast... That said, when I got to the office and had to do typed reports I was even faster. It could go either way depending on the person.
 

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It depends on the user. These things you mentioned means it sucks to me personally. If I need a full office suite, I'll use a full laptop. MBA would be my choice for lightweight ...

That said, I do a lot of documents with my iPad Air 2 without any complaints...

To each his own... :)

Well, the Surface 3 does not suck. It lags, but that is due to the processor. It is overall OK for office productivity. The keyboard is not the best, but it is OK for typing, especially for light typing. The screen is great and the format helps document processing.

I felt that the Surface is far better than the iPad in working on documents. To begin with, the iPad does not have a full-featured office suite like Microsoft Office (the full Office, I mean; the iPad version is a lightweight alternative). In addition, the iPad does not have a pointing device, which makes it a poor device for document writing.

And, last of all, the iPad does not have a keyboard, which makes it even poorer than the keyboard on the Surface 3. You can add a keyboard to the iPad, of course... but you can also add a different keyboard to the Surface 3.
 
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Well, the Surface 3 does not suck. It lags, but that is due to the processor. It is overall OK for office productivity. The keyboard is not the best, but it is OK for typing, especially for light typing. The screen is great and the format helps document processing.
If I bought a surface 3 it would be for productivity not portability or convenience. Given your report as above, it would suck for me as a daily production machine. That may not be the case for you, but you can't define the experience for me.

I felt that the Surface is far better than the iPad in working on documents. To begin with, the iPad does not have a full-featured office suite like Microsoft Office (the full Office, I mean; the iPad version is a lightweight alternative). In addition, the iPad does not have a pointing device, which makes it a poor device for document writing.
I have no argument here for the tasks you listed. My iPad isn't used as a production machine, that's what my laptop is used for while on the go. Laggy processing and substandard keyboards won't do for me in this case. I want speed and I want it smoothly (to include a quality typing experience). For intensive work, both the Surface and the iPad would suck in my opinion.
And, last of all, the iPad does not have a keyboard, which makes it even poorer than the keyboard on the Surface 3. You can add a keyboard to the iPad, of course... but you can also add a different keyboard to the Surface 3.
The lack of an included keyboard is a non-factor for me. If Apple included one, I'd probably buy a different one anyway. I'm kind of picky about keyboards. I have many BT keyboards and iPads. In fact I'm keyboard/Case shopping for my iPad Air 2 presently. If I had a Surface 3, I'd be doing the same so it's a non-issue for me.

The mouse is missed sometimes, I can live without it but I'd prefer not to.

I wouldn't use the iPad as a production machine. That's just st silly to me. That said, I've had to use it this way while traveling and unexpected situations arise. It's perfectly acceptable with a keyboard case, and actually does a great job for most tasks just as easily and efficiently as a laptop.

It's a very rare occurrence for me when it's not a good fit, and when that's the case, the surface 3 wouldn't be either.

For ME, the iPad Air is a better fit, for you it's obviously not. That's why we have choices and mine is the iPad. I don't like the surface 3 as a tablet and I don't like the surface 3 as a laptop.
 
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In what world is the pen experience on a Surface 3 an "equal horrible experience" with an iPad? They are worlds apart and to claim otherwise is insane. Having a fat-tipped stylus that has low precision, skips, and has no pressure sensitivity is polar opposite to the stylus on the Surface 3.
In the world where you have plastic nibs that are stiff as a nail on a very hard slippery surface that is glass. The only difference is in amount of crappyness: the Surface 3 is less crappy than the iPad but it doesn't matter if it is crappy or less crappy, it still isn't a pleasant experience.

You also conveniently ignored all the ways I listed that demonstrate that the Surface 3 is far more versatile than an iPad, especially for students and business users.
No, you consistently conveniently ignoring all the ways that demonstrate the iPad is far more versatile than any Surface. The entire point is that you shouldn't be looking at it from your sole point of view but from a much broader point of view. There are many use cases where the iPad is better than the Surface and vice versa. Each have their strengths and weaknesses that make them better or worse than the other.

The fact that the iPad and the iPhone run the same operating system and are able to use the same applications is a major advantage. If you want to do the same with Windows you can't at the moment. You need to wait for Windows 10 and then you'll hit another snag: Windows has a very low marketshare when it comes to the mobile world. That makes things like ROI rather difficult. The other option is to use a full fledged desktop app which isn't user friendly when on the go (it generally requires the use of keyboard & mouse). In case of specific software for your business (something that is custom made for you) the OS really doesn't matter. It doesn't change the development process.

When it comes to note taking, documents (reading and writing), doing presentations, etc. both devices are on par. Both have extensive office and note taking software, can use pens (if you can put up with those) and external keyboards (for a better typing experience).

When it comes to business intelligence (BI) we quickly get in a realm where neither of the devices is suited. The displays are just too small and the machines are underpowered. If you do simple BI then these might be ok when coupled with an external display (which will be a hell when you use Windows since it doesn't handle additional displays with a different kind of dpi well).

Instead you just disagree by claiming that the pen isn't any better than the iPad with a stylus, which is complete baloney.
Do elaborate on why and especially why those scientific studies are wrong (because that is what you are now implying). Only saying they're wrong is too easy.

In addition to the stylus and the attachable keyboard, you have multiple user accounts, USB port (for external keyboard, mouse for precision pointing, printer connections, thumb drives or external hard drives, etc), dockable to be used as a full computer, monitor output, SD card slot, the ability to multitask (you can't even listen to a YouTube video and type a paper at the same time), OneNote (arguably the best note-taking experience on the market currently), and so on.
Yes and that long list is both its pro and its con. It adds enormous complexity, demands more of the hardware and means fatter hardware (you can't fit 60 people in a small car, you need a bus for that). By slimming down the features you get a smaller, lighter device that for a lot of people offers more overview of what they are doing due to less complexity. Some require the complexity to be productive but for others that complexity does the exact opposite, they need less of that to be productive.

I will concede entirely that the iPad is lighter, but the screen is also 1.1" smaller and you lose a lot of useful features for that.
And you gain something else. Some like the smaller screen (the iPad mini is rather popular because of its size!), some hate it (the Surface (Pro) 3 is rather popular because of its bigger size). It goes both ways ;)

You are aware that this thread isn't about the Surface Pro 3 but the standard Surface 3? Most of what you say indicates that you're only talking about the Pro 3 ("power comes with disadvantages", "noisy", "bad battery life") that don't apply to the Surface 3 (the topic of the thread).
You are aware that the difference between the Pro and non-Pro is rather small? These machines do nearly the same thing. The only difference is the Surface 3 having slower hardware which means that some people are continuously running it at its max (you know, that part where things are getting really hot). Said disadvantages apply to both the Surface 3 and the Surface Pro 3 as well as the Surface RT, Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2. Am I the only one saying that? Well, read reviews of said devices and you'll find out ;)

We'll see how Windows 10 is on it since it seems the Surface 3 was intended to use it from the start.
Actually all the Surfaces were meant for Windows 8/8.1/10. They'll do fine when it comes to the desktop/notebook part but the tablet part in Windows 10 will be a step back from 8/8.1 (Microsoft had to add some of the gestures back because they left them out; the main focus of 10 are the desktop and the desktop apps). Not a very strange move since most of the Windows machines are still normal desktops/notebooks.

I said it wasn't as good on the iPad.
But to be fair, as I said, there are very few modern applications that are available that would cater to pen. OneNote, a few drawing apps... but there are very few. And I didn't find them satisfactory.
And that's another reason why the pen input on any tablet is crappy. The software part is lacking. The only tablets that have rather good support are the ones from Wacom that you hookup to your desktop/notebook. OneNote is rather nice app (even though feature parity is completely absent) but try making some drawings like diagrams and such. They'rejust drawings, not diagrams. OneNote doesn't do it like Grafio does: you draw something that looks like a circle and it turns it into a proper circle for you, you draw something that looks like a square, you get an actual square and so on. If you review each of the apps you find issues with all of them. In reality you need to use 2 to 3 apps to be able to do some proper note taking.

Yes, the surface is important, but it's not like the current system is unusable. I have written hundreds of pages on my Surface Pro and more than that on my iPads. I'm pretty well adapted. In the future is expect a wider selection of stylus tips to be available which is the more important part,IMO just like the pen is more important than the paper.
A few years ago we started out with simple styli, right now we have rather complex bluetooth ones that even have some kind of pressure recognition. Over the years the situation will improve and we'll probably also get some kind of sheet we can put on the display (if it doesn't come with it already), like the normal Wacom tablets, to mimic the roughness of paper. That and improvement of the software will make digital note taking more interesting in the future. Currently it just lacks too much when it comes to a comfortable writing experience and user friendliness.

As far handwriting being faster: yes this does depend on the person but generally the people who handwrite often are quicker. Practice makes perfect :) The more you practice it the more natural it becomes and then also comes speed. A lot of people who have used keyboards for a long time feel rather awkward when having to write, it feels unnatural. It shows in their writing skills.

And, last of all, the iPad does not have a keyboard, which makes it even poorer than the keyboard on the Surface 3. You can add a keyboard to the iPad, of course... but you can also add a different keyboard to the Surface 3.
iOS has a proper on-screen keyboard that actually shows up when you select a text entry field. This does not happen in Windows 8/8.1 (haven't tested 10 with this). The hardware keyboard for the Surfaces is an additional accessory you have to buy. In Europe the keyboard cover with actual keys (you don't want the other one, it's even worse than the on-screen keyboard) sets you back 129 euro (!) euro. Any BT keyboard for the iPad/Surface 3 is a lot cheaper (Apple's own BT one is one of the most expensive ones and costs 79 euro!). A lot of people are buying the foldable keyboard from Microsoft (there is a review of that keyboard in the iPad subforum here btw). I'd say the iPad and Surfaces are on par when it comes to the external keyboard. The on-screen one is quite personal (you get a more complete layout in Windows).
 
iOS has a proper on-screen keyboard that actually shows up when you select a text entry field. This does not happen in Windows 8/8.1 (haven't tested 10 with this). The hardware keyboard for the Surfaces is an additional accessory you have to buy. In Europe the keyboard cover with actual keys (you don't want the other one, it's even worse than the on-screen keyboard) sets you back 129 euro (!) euro. Any BT keyboard for the iPad/Surface 3 is a lot cheaper (Apple's own BT one is one of the most expensive ones and costs 79 euro!). A lot of people are buying the foldable keyboard from Microsoft (there is a review of that keyboard in the iPad subforum here btw). I'd say the iPad and Surfaces are on par when it comes to the external keyboard. The on-screen one is quite personal (you get a more complete layout in Windows).

This is true only on the desktop environment.

On any metro app - the onscreen keyboard automatically shows up, like the iPad.

Email, web browsing, note taking, music writing, Facebook, reddit, PDF, file manager - pretty much everything is via metro app now.

The only non metro app I have installed is my virus scanner..

Anyway, I posted a screenshot comparison of note taking (and split screen/music writing app) comparison between my SP3 and iPad earlier.
 
This is true only on the desktop environment.

On any metro app - the onscreen keyboard automatically shows up, like the iPad.

And it happens like this on the desktop by design, as the user often has a keyboard hooked up while using touch, so bringing up the keyboard is redundant.
 
No, you consistently conveniently ignoring all the ways that demonstrate the iPad is far more versatile than any Surface. The entire point is that you shouldn't be looking at it from your sole point of view but from a much broader point of view. There are many use cases where the iPad is better than the Surface and vice versa. Each have their strengths and weaknesses that make them better or worse than the other.

Not ignoring it one bit. I conceded that the apps and the physical dimensions/weight are a big plus for the iPad. That doesn't really make it more versatile, though. Versatility is the ability to be able to adapt and do many different things. The iPad is very good at what it does, but what it does is rather limited. The Surface may not be as great at some of the things the iPad does, but it is leaps ahead in terms of what it can do.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to note taking, documents (reading and writing), doing presentations, etc. both devices are on par. Both have extensive office and note taking software, can use pens (if you can put up with those) and external keyboards (for a better typing experience).

This is simply not true, and it really makes me wonder how familiar you are with the Surface. OneNote, for instance, is miles ahead of anything on the iPad for note-taking, and you can still have other applications open next to it while you're working.

You can record the audio for the entire presentation/lecture and it matches each block of text or diagram with the time in the audio so you can replay relevant parts. You can even search for words in the audio clips.

You can quickly draw detailed diagrams and charts, or mathematical equations (which it recognizes and converts automatically), resize, and place them in the document.

If you're working with documents, you very often need to reference another document, web page, video, etc, next to it. You can't do that on the iPad. That right there is enough to make it painful to work with.

Trying to write with a stylus on the iPad and have it legible is quite a difficult task. The tips are generally squishy and thick, and the capacitive touchscreen isn't great at dealing with it.

And of course, being able to use the type cover for typing without consuming 2/3 of your screen real estate isn't half bad.

For presentations, you can output video. Presentations on the iPad are pretty well a lost cause.

When it comes to business intelligence (BI) we quickly get in a realm where neither of the devices is suited. The displays are just too small and the machines are underpowered. If you do simple BI then these might be ok when coupled with an external display (which will be a hell when you use Windows since it doesn't handle additional displays with a different kind of dpi well).

I'll concede that I don't think either device is really well suited to many business environments, but there are some that use them. The iPad has a huge advantage in the security of the ecosystem and being able to lock down the OS nicely so it can be used for things like point-of-sale, information, and even for ordering food and browsing at restaurants and lounges.

As for the Surface, I've only really seen it used in the medical field for doctors as they move about. They've been using stylus Windows-based computers a few years now in my area, but have moved to Surface Pros. I'd wager that the Pro is the one to get for any kind of business use as it's effectively a normal laptop.

In the world where you have plastic nibs that are stiff as a nail on a very hard slippery surface that is glass. The only difference is in amount of crappyness: the Surface 3 is less crappy than the iPad but it doesn't matter if it is crappy or less crappy, it still isn't a pleasant experience........
Do elaborate on why and especially why those scientific studies are wrong (because that is what you are now implying). Only saying they're wrong is too easy.

What scientific studies are you talking about? I'm specifically saying that the Surface stylus is much better than the iPad with a stylus. That isn't even something you can argue against; a capacitive touch screen that uses thick, squishy styli, is nowhere near an active digitizer in the screen and pressure sensitivity in the pen with a fine tip.

I suspect you think I'm saying that a stylus is better than pen and paper, which I'm not. Fair enough that you dislike using a stylus on either, but that doesn't mean they're that bad. The stylus with the Surface is quite highly liked by users and reviewers. Maybe one day they'll get the texture just right for you, but I don't think it will be the iPad.

For what it's worth, I'm a pen and paper geek myself. I love writing on Rhodia DotPads, and find them a lot more practical for the work that I do. Stylus is no comparison whatsoever.

Having said that, I write at a pretty average speed (slower yet when I'm using fountain pens) which is around 30-40 WPM. My typing is pretty consistently 80-115 WPM depending on the complexity. I'm not sure that I'd ever be able to write neatly enough at even half that speed, but speed is only so important. I find it really helps to take notes by hand and type them up in the evening in order to really solidify the material into memory.
 
I don't get what is so difficult about this.

The Surface Pro 3 is a tablet laptop with a touchscreen and a pen. You guys talk about how much you love it. Okay, except... Why is the ability to run Desktop applications a good thing? That's kind of the antithesis of a tablet. It doesn't make it more adaptable, it's just like the tablet part is an add-on. If you truly want to talk about a tablet, then you'd be talking about Modern applications/Metro/apps.

Could you possibly use your Surface Pro 3 for a week with only those apps? Would it be a good experience?
I wonder how many times you had to open your browser to watch your youtube videos or to do ... that has its own app that isn't available for WinRT (not to be confused with the Surface RT or Windows RT; Windows RunTime).
If at any time in order to do something, you have to use a desktop application, then perhaps you can appreciate why it's not that good of a tablet experience.

Okay, now let's be fair here. The Surface Pro 3 is a productivity beast (compared to the iPad). You can take notes, annotate, blah blah, full Office, etc. Those are all features that come part and parcel with the device. It even has a keyboard (we won't point out the extra fee associated with that... oh, oops)

But have you guys considered that the iPad and SP3 aren't comparable?
In fact, I remember the SP3 being compared to the Macbook Air.

If you want an excellent tablet-only experience, then get the iPad.
If you want a decent tablet experience, with extra productivity features and a full laptop that's nice and light, get the SP3.
 
I don't get what is so difficult about this.
Why is the ability to run Desktop applications a good thing? That's kind of the antithesis of a tablet. It doesn't make it more adaptable, it's just like the tablet part is an add-on. If you truly want to talk about a tablet, then you'd be talking about Modern applications/Metro/apps.SP3.

I use the surface as a tablet almost exclusively and the only modern app i use is explorer--which is a great touch browser. Mostly I use desktop OneNote, SketchBookPro, Manga Studio and ArtRage. I will sometimes put on the
type cover and draft text in word. Its great not have to carry multiple devices. I think your thinking is so restricted you cant see the benefits a hybrid brings. Touch apps are hugely over rated
 
I use the surface as a tablet almost exclusively and the only modern app i use is explorer--which is a great touch browser. Mostly I use desktop OneNote, SketchBookPro, Manga Studio and ArtRage. I will sometimes put on the
type cover and draft text in word. Its great not have to carry multiple devices. I think your thinking is so restricted you cant see the benefits a hybrid brings. Touch apps are hugely over rated

I hope this a joke.
The APIs available for touch apps is the main reason why they are so highly valued. Being able to take advantage of system hardware is kind of the important part here. That and they are a pleasurable experience being touch-based. They are able to deliver a first-class experience because they cater to one thing and one thing only, touch input (and occasionally keyboard). It is quite plain to see that touch apps are not "over rated".

I can't use one of those hybrid devices because it does not fit my requirements. And I do not find hybrid devices to be a good experience. I'd rather use the best tool for the job. (I hope that didn't sound like I'm a fanboy preaching Apple... that's my honest opinion).
 
Could you possibly use your Surface Pro 3 for a week with only those apps? Would it be a good experience?
I wonder how many times you had to open your browser to watch your youtube videos or to do ... that has its own app that isn't available for WinRT (not to be confused with the Surface RT or Windows RT; Windows RunTime).
If at any time in order to do something, you have to use a desktop application, then perhaps you can appreciate why it's not that good of a tablet experience.

I'm really confused about what you're talking about..

The only desktop app I use is for virus scanning.

Internet, email, games (sudoku mainly), notes, RSS feeds, reddit, Facebook, PDF annotating, even music composition are all metro apps.

You're trying to create a false argument with regards to the desktop. Stop over thinking and trying to create a false division and just enjoy what you have..

The only time I've had to use the desktop, was for when a state examination test wouldn't run in metro and required the desktop. I just opened the desktop and ran it, without an issue.

Anyway, I posted pics of hand writing using both the iPad and surface earlier..all those apps are metro, and rather than people claiming there is no difference between their ability - I posted proof showing otherwise..
 
Well, it depends. I have a Surface 3, which I bought a few weeks ago, and my overall experience is good. It was the price of an iPad and is a far more versatile machine. Yes, it is slow and lags, but it runs full Windows and full Office. The keyboard and the trackpad could be better, but the cover containing both the keyboard and the trackpad is the work of a genius. The 3:2 screen is great; the screen format is far better than 16:9 screens out there. Battery life is pretty good. As a tablet, it is good and works in a satisfactory manner; not as good as an iPad as a tablet, though.

Overall, the Surface 3 seems to me much better value than the iPad. There could be better laptops out there, but the device you get is superior to an iPad. Definitely, in my opinion.

I'm an iPad user, but I've been pretty obsessed with the Surface line since inception, pretty much just waiting to switch. I even bought a Pro 2 but returned it. Software just wasn't up to snuff yet, nor was the stylus good enough for me. I also wasn't a huge fan of the hardware, kind of heavy burdensome for a tablet, and I think the kickstand is a bit over-engineered. I finally got to use the Surface 3 and I think they've really nailed the form factor with that one. Yeah, still not a fan of the kickstand, but weight and proportions are on point. Software looks to be improved in Windows 10, and I hope the pen is better too since MS now owns n-trig. Once the mobile processors get a bit faster it's going to be a great product, and I think I will be buying a 4 or 5 for sure.

Anyway, all that is to say, I really liked the Surface 3 and I think the Surface line is very close to becoming an iPad level compelling product.
 
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Surface being used on NFL sidelines during games (Microsoft supposedly paid $400M for the sponsorship):

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-microsoft-nfl-surface-ipad-20140913-story.html#page=1

Yeah - if you've actually read the article, they talk about how nice it is to actually be able to write on the screen.

A few old, non techie men with likely a history of head injuries have referred to it as an iPad - while at the same time the guys are praising the pen functionality.
 
Yeah - if you've actually read the article, they talk about how nice it is to actually be able to write on the screen.

A few old, non techie men with likely a history of head injuries have referred to it as an iPad - while at the same time the guys are praising the pen functionality.

Yeah, I read it. I have developed benign tremors in my old age so my handwriting abilities are very poor now but I can appreciate the value of screenwriting & drawing on a tablet with a stylus (have it on my Note 4 phone). Being new to the iPad I was surprised to see the functionality not available on the Air 2 which I bought (wasn't a factor in my purchase) - I assumed it would be a native capability. Though not an issue for me I can see it as a deal-breaker for others. All indications are that the Pro will support it but the size puts me off on that one. In the end, your prioritized personal needs for device functionality are the drivers for what's right for you.
 
Yeah - if you've actually read the article, they talk about how nice it is to actually be able to write on the screen.

A few old, non techie men with likely a history of head injuries have referred to it as an iPad - while at the same time the guys are praising the pen functionality.

Over on the Galaxy Note 4 forum I frequent, there is a thread about the Note 4's stylus - "S pen ... do you use it?". Lot of responses from people saying they never have used it even though it is integral to the device's marketing and is supported by some good apps. A lot of people have no use for a stylus and aren't interested in learning a use.
 
Over on the Galaxy Note 4 forum I frequent, there is a thread about the Note 4's stylus - "S pen ... do you use it?". Lot of responses from people saying they never have used it even though it is integral to the device's marketing and is supported by some good apps. A lot of people have no use for a stylus and aren't interested in learning a use.

Yeah - that is a phone. I never took photos with my iPad, does that mean I dont use the one on my phone?

Nope!

Taking lecture notes or trying to write music on a phone is just goofy.
 
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