iPad Air vs. Microsoft's Surface Go: Which Is a Better Laptop Replacement?

[apolloa]

No its not just for niche use cases, my job for example requires the use of full desktop applications that simply are not available on a tablet OS. Even for a tablet with full keyboard and mouse support software is still the roadblock that stops it being a real substitute. So while it may be ok for you and i have no doubt it is, there are many people who use real desktop class specialized software.

That’s the crux of the matter, the iPad IS used in a lot of work environments, but their are also a lot of work environments that use software that just isn’t on iOS and probably never will be.

 

[Abazigal]

No its not just for niche use cases, my job for example requires the use of full desktop applications that simply are not available on a tablet OS. Even for a tablet with full keyboard and mouse support software is still the roadblock that stops it being a real substitute.

And what percentage of the world does your job?

That's my bugbear with this entire discussion (and basically any thread that dares to so much as insinuate that the iPad could be used for any manner of productive work). It feels to me like the discussion could be so much more meaningful if instead of rushing to condemn the iPad, we could instead objectively list out what the iPad can do, and what people are already getting done with it. Conclude with letting people come to their own conclusions.

I mean, look around us and there seems to be its fair share of people using the iPad to get work done. The writer of BirchTree uses his iPad Pro to record a podcast and edit videos for his fledgling youtube channel. Austin Mann uses an iPad for his photography career. We have artists using iPads for illustration, writers blogging from them, doctors using them for note-taking and task management. Just to name a few examples I have come across.

I just came back from an overseas excursion with my students, and my iPad was so ideal for the stuff I did on it. For instance, having always-on cellular was a great convenience, blogging via Bear was an awesome experience, and the form factor lent itself well to being used in places like the bus. Battery life was amazing as well, and it was portable enough to fit into my backpack along with other stuff.

For every job that needs a full-powered PC to get done, it seems to me like there are just as many, if not more, which would benefit from the simplicity and ease of use of an iPad. I too admit that I can't get all my work done on an iPad, and there really isn't any reason for me to want to go to this extent either. That said, because I am frequently on the move, there is incentive for me to experiment with how I can get more done on my iPad (because more often than not, my iPad will be with me compared to my iMac, while a laptop is too cumbersome to use on the move if I am not at a desk). As a bonus, many of the workflows (such as custom shortcuts) I create to work on my iPad also carry over to my iPhone.

 

[AlexJoda]

That’s the crux of the matter, the iPad IS used in a lot of work environments, but their are also a lot of work environments that use software that just isn’t on iOS and probably never will be.

But that same argument would be also true for MacOS, because many specialized productivity apps are also not available for MacOS. In that sense you can only recommend Windows or wait until developers develop such apps for iPadOS....

 

[AlexJoda]

And what percentage of the world does your job?

That's my bugbear with this entire discussion (and basically any thread that dares to so much as insinuate that the iPad could be used for any manner of productive work). It feels to me like the discussion could be so much more meaningful if instead of rushing to condemn the iPad, we could instead objectively list out what the iPad can do, and what people are already getting done with it. Conclude with letting people come to their own conclusions.

I mean, look around us and there seems to be its fair share of people using the iPad to get work done. The writer of BirchTree uses his iPad Pro to record a podcast and edit videos for his fledgling youtube channel. Austin Mann uses an iPad for his photography career. We have artists using iPads for illustration, writers blogging from them, doctors using them for note-taking and task management. Just to name a few examples I have come across.

I just came back from an overseas excursion with my students, and my iPad was so ideal for the stuff I did on it. For instance, having always-on cellular was a great convenience, blogging via Bear was an awesome experience, and the form factor lent itself well to being used in places like the bus. Battery life was amazing as well, and it was portable enough to fit into my backpack along with other stuff.

For every job that needs a full-powered PC to get done, it seems to me like there are just as many, if not more, which would benefit from the simplicity and ease of use of an iPad. I too admit that I can't get all my work done on an iPad, and there really isn't any reason for me to want to go to this extent either. That said, because I am frequently on the move, there is incentive for me to experiment with how I can get more done on my iPad (because more often than not, my iPad will be with me compared to my iMac, while a laptop is too cumbersome to use on the move if I am not at a desk). As a bonus, many of the workflows (such as custom shortcuts) I create to work on my iPad also carry over to my iPhone.

The problem here is that you are not able in most cases to use the iPad as your only device (even as your only mobile computing device). As I said in another comment as the iPad Pros getting performance and price wise in MacBook territory it’s a kind of waste to use them as an „adjunct“ to a notebook. Why should you buy two devices and double your expenses if a further developed iPad/iPadOS can do all things you need it to do?

I think that Apple should have done something more in that direction in the last 9 years the iPad exists. But hopefully with SwitftUI for MacOS, iPadOS, USB-C on iPads and so on this will accelerate now...

 

[torana355]

And what percentage of the world does your job?

That's my bugbear with this entire discussion (and basically any thread that dares to so much as insinuate that the iPad could be used for any manner of productive work). It feels to me like the discussion could be so much more meaningful if instead of rushing to condemn the iPad, we could instead objectively list out what the iPad can do, and what people are already getting done with it. Conclude with letting people come to their own conclusions.

I mean, look around us and there seems to be its fair share of people using the iPad to get work done. The writer of BirchTree uses his iPad Pro to record a podcast and edit videos for his fledgling youtube channel. Austin Mann uses an iPad for his photography career. We have artists using iPads for illustration, writers blogging from them, doctors using them for note-taking and task management. Just to name a few examples I have come across.

I just came back from an overseas excursion with my students, and my iPad was so ideal for the stuff I did on it. For instance, having always-on cellular was a great convenience, blogging via Bear was an awesome experience, and the form factor lent itself well to being used in places like the bus. Battery life was amazing as well, and it was portable enough to fit into my backpack along with other stuff.

For every job that needs a full-powered PC to get done, it seems to me like there are just as many, if not more, which would benefit from the simplicity and ease of use of an iPad. I too admit that I can't get all my work done on an iPad, and there really isn't any reason for me to want to go to this extent either. That said, because I am frequently on the move, there is incentive for me to experiment with how I can get more done on my iPad (because more often than not, my iPad will be with me compared to my iMac, while a laptop is too cumbersome to use on the move if I am not at a desk). As a bonus, many of the workflows (such as custom shortcuts) I create to work on my iPad also carry over to my iPhone.

I'm not sure why we even need to continue the discussion, like i said im sure there are people who can get by with just a tablet. My point is alot of professional grade software isn't even available on a tablet OS. Hell most software isn't even available on Mac OSX either, Windows is needed in many cases. Also to be honest if you can get your work done on an iPad you can probably get it done on a mobile phone aswell.

 

[alien3dx]

The problem here is that you are not able in most cases to use the iPad as your only device (even as your only mobile computing device). As I said in another comment the iPad Pros getting performance and price wise in MacBook territory it’s a kind of waste to use them as an „adjunct“ to a notebook. Why should you buy two devices and double your expenses if a further developed iPad/iPadOS can do all things you need it to do?

I think that Apple should have done something more in that direction in the last 9 years the iPad exists. But hopefully with SwitftUI for MacOS, iPadOS 13, USB-C on iPads and so on this will accelerate now...

TRUE, why i should buy macbook pro, ipad pro,ipad mini. I'm not collector . I just need one device for travel and one device for work.

** too much phone in my closet need to be simplify lol ..

 

[Shanghaichica]

TRUE, why i should buy macbook pro, ipad pro,ipad mini. I'm not collector . I just need one device for travel and one device for work.

** too much phone in my closet need to be simplify lol ..

We need a foldable phone with Dex. That will be your phone, tablet and desktop all in one.

 

[Lalatoon]

A lot of people can’t see past their own nose. "Productivity" is often limited to programming, excel, and CAD, as if no other type of profession exists.

What I am seeing here is that people are basically admitting that the iPad can be a laptop replacement so long as they don't need to code, or run multiple terminal windows, or a bunch of other niche use cases.

Which sounds like it would be basically fine for like 70-80% of the user populace? I mean, even if I could run google docs on my work-issued windows laptop, the reality is that I don't really do so much these days, preferring instead to wait till I get home where I have the benefit of a larger display thanks to my 5k iMac.

When Steve Jobs said the iPad would be the car and the Mac would be the pickup truck, I think he too envisioned a future where it was 90% iOS and 10% OS X (as he called it then).

The thing about vision, which Steve had in spades, is you have to be able to look beyond the present and your current workflows, and realize that tools are always getting better. So when the iPad was introduced in 2010, I knew without a doubt that this was the future. I also knew it would take a while before the hardware and software got to the point where it really could replace a Mac 90% of the time.

Getting there is only a matter of time. And probably sooner rather than later.

Its just like your saying that iOS and macOS is the only future when it comes to OSes

I strongly believe that in the future iOS will be behind Android Open Source Project (AOSP). The thing is when it comes to hardware giant tech companies has the upper hand but when it comes to software it's a different situation. Collaboration of tech savvy people can provide better software solutions.

I am being subjective here, but I think that Apple is thinking too high of herself because she has tendencies to impose her own self centred ideas to her consumers on how to operate and use softwares. I fell like she is thinking that we are Apple and we are the best out there, so listen to us this is, this is how you use softwares and nothing else. This might work in this era because there are still a lot of consumers who are not very well educated in regards to technology. But it will change soon. With the free flow of information through the Internet each generation is learning a lot more about technology and educated themselves and there will be a point in time that consumers are well educated about technology that Apple can longer impose her own standards to users. Hopefully as a company Apple will evolve but if she is too proud to adapt and will continue to embrace the idea that we don't know what we want and they are the authority when it comes to how to use technology then they will be left behind.

On the other hand Android being a collaboration of a lot of tech companies and individuals it will surely grow and evolve faster than iOS. The truth is iOS is way more advance than Android a few years ago. But today they are on the same level or much more advance if I may say then iOS and Android still growing and advancing with the inputs from a lot of people and tech companies.

I am with you about there will be more iOS than macOS. I think it's already happening but it does'nt mean that iPad/iOS will replace the laptop. Because until iOS free from its own prison it will always be a mobile OS that supplement desktop OS but not replace it. There is a world of difference between iOS and macOS and iOS 13 will not bridge that gap.

 

[apolloa]

But that same argument would be also true for MacOS, because many specialized productivity apps are also not available for MacOS. In that sense you can only recommend Windows or wait until developers develop such apps for iPadOS....

I thought that was obvious? I wouldn’t recommend a Surface Go though! Some Mac users only consider pros that use Macs for video editing as the real Pros though, no other work use scenarios are real ‘pros’, this is mainly the millennial snowflake You Tube crowd though.

 

[Rob_2811]

A lot of people can’t see past their own nose. "Productivity" is often limited to programming, excel, and CAD, as if no other type of profession exists.

What I am seeing here is that people are basically admitting that the iPad can be a laptop replacement so long as they don't need to code, or run multiple terminal windows, or a bunch of other niche use cases.

Which sounds like it would be basically fine for like 70-80% of the user populace? I mean, even if I could run google docs on my work-issued windows laptop, the reality is that I don't really do so much these days, preferring instead to wait till I get home where I have the benefit of a larger display thanks to my 5k iMac.

When Steve Jobs said the iPad would be the car and the Mac would be the pickup truck, I think he too envisioned a future where it was 90% iOS and 10% OS X (as he called it then).

The thing about vision, which Steve had in spades, is you have to be able to look beyond the present and your current workflows, and realize that tools are always getting better. So when the iPad was introduced in 2010, I knew without a doubt that this was the future. I also knew it would take a while before the hardware and software got to the point where it really could replace a Mac 90% of the time.

Getting there is only a matter of time. And probably sooner rather than later.

At the current rate Apple is adding software functionality to the iPad it will be able to handle 90% of the Macs workload by WWDC 2035.

It took seven years to get drag and drop.

 

[alien3dx]

We need a foldable phone with Dex. That will be your phone, tablet and desktop all in one.

i'm waiting to force my employee .net core .. So in the future maybe lesser hassle for everyone.. Buy phone and attach it. IF ipad os can do same thing and we just remote it via vscode.. Lovely.. Microsoft where my visual studio code for ipad .

 

[Abazigal]

I think it's already happening but it does'nt mean that iPad/iOS will replace the laptop.

I believe that iOS has the potential to replace the laptop for users whose needs are not being met with current laptops today. It's already happening for people like myself. It makes little sense to me to have an iPad replace a laptop in its entirety by replicating every single laptop functionality feature for feature.

I have little interest in the iPad replacing the laptop. If people do opt for the iPad over the laptop, it's because the iPad lets them perform a particular task better than the iPad could. What we could be doing better is educating people on what the iPad can do, and does do well, and it's not just for watching Netflix (interesting note - I rarely watch Netflix on my mobile devices; the bulk of it is on my Apple TV).

Also to be honest if you can get your work done on an iPad you can probably get it done on a mobile phone aswell.

I very well could. Except that it's still more comfortable typing longer articles on a tablet with a larger screen than a smartphone. That to me is another strength of the iPad - that it shares a common code base with my iPhone. So my iPhone and iPad basically act like extensions of each other. They both have the same apps, the same settings, features work the same etc.

My work isn't super-complicated in the sense that it needs a tricked-out PC to perform, but it's still work for me, and I do feel this forum needs to vastly expand their definition of just what "real work" entails.

The problem here is that you are not able in most cases to use the iPad as your only device (even as your only mobile computing device). As I said in another comment as the iPad Pros getting performance and price wise in MacBook territory it’s a kind of waste to use them as an „adjunct“ to a notebook. Why should you buy two devices and double your expenses if a further developed iPad/iPadOS can do all things you need it to do?

I honestly don't see it as an issue. Having two devices means that each is free to be the freest expression of what they ought to be, without having to be bogged down with unnecessary burdens. As mentioned before, I am largely iMac + iPad these days, and I appreciate that the heaviness of my iMac is what allows my iPad to be as light as it is. My iPad doesn't need to be bogged down with supporting the complexities of a desktop operating system because that's what my iMac is there for. My iPad does what it does best, my iMac does what it does best, there is fairly little overlap between the two, and that's just how I like it.

 

[maflynn]

I'm debating this myself, though I'm leaning towards the iPad Pro. However - the main advantage of the Go is that you can run desktop quality software. No amount of explaining away what pros are or how awesome iOS is will negate the fact that many people need or want to run the full version of an application. Multitasking is another plus, as windows has better multitasking then iOS. With iPadOS, Apple has improved the situation but I'd say windows still is better.

 

[Shanghaichica]

I believe that iOS has the potential to replace the laptop for users whose needs are not being met with current laptops today. It's already happening for people like myself. It makes little sense to me to have an iPad replace a laptop in its entirety by replicating every single laptop functionality feature for feature.

I have little interest in the iPad replacing the laptop. If people do opt for the iPad over the laptop, it's because the iPad lets them perform a particular task better than the iPad could. What we could be doing better is educating people on what the iPad can do, and does do well, and it's not just for watching Netflix (interesting note - I rarely watch Netflix on my mobile devices; the bulk of it is on my Apple TV).



I very well could. Except that it's still more comfortable typing longer articles on a tablet with a larger screen than a smartphone. That to me is another strength of the iPad - that it shares a common code base with my iPhone. So my iPhone and iPad basically act like extensions of each other. They both have the same apps, the same settings, features work the same etc.

My work isn't super-complicated in the sense that it needs a tricked-out PC to perform, but it's still work for me, and I do feel this forum needs to vastly expand their definition of just what "real work" entails.



I honestly don't see it as an issue. Having two devices means that each is free to be the freest expression of what they ought to be, without having to be bogged down with unnecessary burdens. As mentioned before, I am largely iMac + iPad these days, and I appreciate that the heaviness of my iMac is what allows my iPad to be as light as it is. My iPad doesn't need to be bogged down with supporting the complexities of a desktop operating system because that's what my iMac is there for. My iPad does what it does best, my iMac does what it does best, there is fairly little overlap between the two, and that's just how I like it.

Whilst I like the new features enabled in iPadOS I agree that it wouldn’t be a good idea to try and put a fully fledged version of macOS on the iPad. The whole purpose of the iPad was to simplify computing. I like my MacBook Air more than any other computer I’ve owned but I prefer my iPads by far. It’s straight forward and ready to go and the form factor is more ergonomic for me than a traditional laptop. I don’t need the power of a traditional computer because my computing needs are minimal.

 

[Rob_2811]

I believe that iOS has the potential to replace the laptop for users whose needs are not being met with current laptops today. It's already happening for people like myself. It makes little sense to me to have an iPad replace a laptop in its entirety by replicating every single laptop functionality feature for feature.

I have little interest in the iPad replacing the laptop. If people do opt for the iPad over the laptop, it's because the iPad lets them perform a particular task better than the iPad could. What we could be doing better is educating people on what the iPad can do, and does do well, and it's not just for watching Netflix (interesting note - I rarely watch Netflix on my mobile devices; the bulk of it is on my Apple TV).



I very well could. Except that it's still more comfortable typing longer articles on a tablet with a larger screen than a smartphone. That to me is another strength of the iPad - that it shares a common code base with my iPhone. So my iPhone and iPad basically act like extensions of each other. They both have the same apps, the same settings, features work the same etc.

My work isn't super-complicated in the sense that it needs a tricked-out PC to perform, but it's still work for me, and I do feel this forum needs to vastly expand their definition of just what "real work" entails.



I honestly don't see it as an issue. Having two devices means that each is free to be the freest expression of what they ought to be, without having to be bogged down with unnecessary burdens. As mentioned before, I am largely iMac + iPad these days, and I appreciate that the heaviness of my iMac is what allows my iPad to be as light as it is. My iPad doesn't need to be bogged down with supporting the complexities of a desktop operating system because that's what my iMac is there for. My iPad does what it does best, my iMac does what it does best, there is fairly little overlap between the two, and that's just how I like it.

The one thing that is consistently true of the post you make on here regarding iPad productivity is that they mention other devices that supplement its use.

Thats fine if that's your thing but a lot of people want a device that has the versatility to handle their needs without needing a fleet of other hardware to supplement it.

Like this ..

The problem here is that you are not able in most cases to use the iPad as your only device (even as your only mobile computing device).

I honestly don't see it as an issue. Having two devices means that each is free to be the freest expression of what they ought to be,

I think many people do see it as an issue. If the answer to a iPads limitations is "go and buy another expensive device to supplement it so it can be free" a lot of people just think it wasn't up to the job in the first place. They just want to get the job done as cost effectively as possible.

A lot of people don't want to be maintaining multiple devices/computers. Its a level of complexity and expense that they neither want or need. For anyone who is budget driven its not an option.

 

[AlexJoda]

I
I honestly don't see it as an issue. Having two devices means that each is free to be the freest expression of what they ought to be, without having to be bogged down with unnecessary burdens. As mentioned before, I am largely iMac + iPad these days, and I appreciate that the heaviness of my iMac is what allows my iPad to be as light as it is. My iPad doesn't need to be bogged down with supporting the complexities of a desktop operating system because that's what my iMac is there for. My iPad does what it does best, my iMac does what it does best, there is fairly little overlap between the two, and that's just how I like it.

Than you are in the nice position that your mobile needs are very much different than your office/home needs. I am too using an iMac in the office but I need some of this these desktop apps also on the road. To do this I take the relatively cheap and light/small Surface Go in addition to my iPP 12.9 with me because I don't want to spend more than $1000 on each iPP and MBP. This double device solution is still a hassle and I think my iPP has easily the potential from the hardware and from the software perspective to do both of these tasks if Apple is willing to let me do it.

What you should consider is that the iPad from 2019 is not the same as the iPad from 2010. Especially the next iPP with an A13X processor, USB-C maybe 8 GB RAM is more powerful than most MacBooks and about as expensive. So I did not see the need to reduce the things the iPad can do in the same way they did it with the earlier iPads.

 

[Lesser Evets]

iPads are NOT a laptop replacement.

NO DEAL.

They replace laptops for those that merely browse, write small missives, do basic computing, look at photos, email, etc.

If you are doing any real computing, not consumer computing, the iPad is still baloney. It could be a replacement in the future, but Apple doesn't want to take that step and expand the OS to be a MacBook cannibalizer.

 

[Mainsail]

Personally, I like owning both an iPad and a Mac. I can definitely use the iPad for my lighter productivity tasks and it is an incredibly tablet experience. The Mac is for more intensive tasks that require considerable typing or spreadsheet work.

I probably spend 4 hours per day doing various computing activities, and it is nice to split it up between two different devices. Not only are they each best suited for different tasks, but from an ergonomic perspective alone, I like mixing things up a bit. Also, variety is nice.....it keeps me dialed into the different tools and capabilities of the computing world.

Now, there is a premium to be paid if you own both an iPad and a Mac, but it really is not that big of a deal. Recently, I paid $450 for my iPad Air 3, and it will probably last 4 years. In 2014, I paid $750 for my MBA new on sale, it will probably last me at least 6 years. That’s a couple of hundred buck per year for 2 devices, or more like $20 bucks per month, or 70 cents per day for two devices that I use a total of 4 hours or more per day.......not bad really.

 

[Rob_2811]

Personally, I like owning both an iPad and a Mac. I can definitely use the iPad for my lighter productivity tasks and it is an incredibly tablet experience. The Mac is for more intensive tasks that require considerable typing or spreadsheet work.

I probably spend 4 hours per day doing various computing activities, and it is nice to split it up between two different devices. Not only are they each best suited for different tasks, but from an ergonomic perspective alone, I like mixing things up a bit. Also, variety is nice.....it keeps me dialed into the different tools and capabilities of the computing world.

Now, there is a premium to be paid if you own both an iPad and a Mac, but it really is not that big of a deal. Recently, I paid $450 for my iPad Air 3, and it will probably last 4 years. In 2014, I paid $750 for my MBA new on sale, it will probably last me at least 6 years. That’s a couple of hundred buck per year for 2 devices, or more like $20 bucks per month, or 70 cents per day for two devices that I use a total of 4 hours or more per day.......not bad really.

Is that you Tim?


"Your thousand dollar phone, its just a dollar a day... "

 

[Mainsail]

Is that you Tim?


"Your thousand dollar phone, its just a dollar a day... "

Ha! Good one.

Back to the iPad + Mac combo, how many things do you own that you use 4 hours per day at the cost of 70 cents per day......or, 1/3 of the cost of a small Cup of Starbucks regular coffee.

 

[Rob_2811]

Ha! Good one.

Back to the iPad + Mac combo, how many things do you own that you use 4 hours per day at the cost of 70 cents per day......or, 1/3 of the cost of a small Cup of Starbucks regular coffee.

None. I'm still yet to convince Apple to let me pay for their products daily.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Personally, I like owning both an iPad and a Mac. I can definitely use the iPad for my lighter productivity tasks and it is an incredibly tablet experience. The Mac is for more intensive tasks that require considerable typing or spreadsheet work.

I probably spend 4 hours per day doing various computing activities, and it is nice to split it up between two different devices. Not only are they each best suited for different tasks, but from an ergonomic perspective alone, I like mixing things up a bit. Also, variety is nice.....it keeps me dialed into the different tools and capabilities of the computing world.

Now, there is a premium to be paid if you own both an iPad and a Mac, but it really is not that big of a deal. Recently, I paid $450 for my iPad Air 3, and it will probably last 4 years. In 2014, I paid $750 for my MBA new on sale, it will probably last me at least 6 years. That’s a couple of hundred buck per year for 2 devices, or more like $20 bucks per month, or 70 cents per day for two devices that I use a total of 4 hours or more per day.......not bad really.

Well I bought my MBA back in early 2015 for £700 and it’s still as good as the day I bought it so it’s been worthwhile so far.

 

[Mainsail]

None. I'm still yet to convince Apple to let me pay for their products daily.

Well, it’s a helpful construct for determining the value something brings to you. It is not the only perspective, but it puts the discussion in some context.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Personally, I like owning both an iPad and a Mac. I can definitely use the iPad for my lighter productivity tasks and it is an incredibly tablet experience. The Mac is for more intensive tasks that require considerable typing or spreadsheet work.

I probably spend 4 hours per day doing various computing activities, and it is nice to split it up between two different devices. Not only are they each best suited for different tasks, but from an ergonomic perspective alone, I like mixing things up a bit. Also, variety is nice.....it keeps me dialed into the different tools and capabilities of the computing world.

Now, there is a premium to be paid if you own both an iPad and a Mac, but it really is not that big of a deal. Recently, I paid $450 for my iPad Air 3, and it will probably last 4 years. In 2014, I paid $750 for my MBA new on sale, it will probably last me at least 6 years. That’s a couple of hundred buck per year for 2 devices, or more like $20 bucks per month, or 70 cents per day for two devices that I use a total of 4 hours or more per day.......not bad really.

Well I bought my MBA back in early 2015 for £700 and it’s still as good as the day I bought it so it’s been worthwhile so far.

 

[Rob_2811]

Well, it’s a helpful construct for determining the value something brings to you. It is not the only perspective, but it puts the discussion in some context.

For sure.