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Macrumors and WSJ are distorting facts here and make it sound like its Proview's fault.

Truth is today there is no such as a single "Provew". Today Proview Shenzhen and its parent company are two seperate and independent entities sharing merely a name. Proview Shenzhen = the creditors of Proview Shenzhen.

... The blame is totally on Apple. When you purchase something, it is your responsibility to find out whether the seller actually owns that thing. If you failed to do so, you bear the consequences. Simple as that.

"Today"? Interesting. So what was the truth of the situation back in 2009? Were they in receivership to the creditors then?

Sounds like the Creditors took over the company and took advantage of the situation of there already being a breach of contract. If you take over a company it is your responsibility to find out if there are any liabilities or obligations. If you failed to do so, or failed to honor the debts or contracts, you bear the consequences. Simple as that.

And if half the details posted about there being a conspiracy are true, then you would think the new Creditors would want to wash their hands of it and distance themselves from it -- not compound it by turning a 10 million conspiracy into a 1.6 billion one.
 
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Seems smart move. Pull iPads (and other apple products) from resellers. Resellers loose money. Can't feed familly. Resellers take it out on proview and, chinese officials etc. china puts proview in its place and backs apple. Apple wins without fighting.
 
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Seems smart move. Pull iPads (and other apple products) from resellers. Resellers loose money. Can't feed familly. Resellers take it out on proview and, chinese officials etc. china puts proview in its place and backs apple. Apple wins without fighting.

There were 45 iPads confiscated. Most likely by cops who saw an opportunity to get an iPad without paying. I would bet two cents that these iPads have been sold since, within China.
 
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numble said:
Here is analysis I found insightful (from comments on the China Hearsay blog):
http://www.chinahearsay.com/proview-apple-customs-reality-check/

New just came out – Chinese Customs will not get involved with import or export issues relating to the disputed iPad trademark.

This is good for Apple, since it puts the issue back in the courts, with less risk of disrupting their supply chain or sales. I guess this means Apple iPads will be able to enter/leave China easily? Not sure what the local governments can/will do about stopping sales (especially Shenzhen’s government, which seems to be pro-Proview).

Also, the HK court case (see link below by “numble”) sheds new light and shows Apple’s position to be much stronger than was portrayed here earlier by Stan.

Stan, I think you realize you jumped the gun with your previous posts decrying Apple attorneys for “dropping the ball.” now we see they didn’t so badly and had the contract tightly defined – though I agree they failed in an important area by not doing the due-diligence to check who actually owned the PRC rights. I suppose in their view, Proview Technologies (HK) owned Proview (Shenzhen), and so the HK parent’s sale meant its subordinate firm also consented. While such an assumption is not wrong, it’s an example of not “dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.”

And with knowledge that Yang was the principle owner of all three Proview firms, this starts to appear disingenuous on Proview’s part. It appears they were either sloppy (and trying to take advantage of it now), or they were being deceitful by claiming “worldwide rights” in one set of negotiations, but later reneging on that clause.

My guess of the “true, behind the scenes story” is this: Yang truly intended to and believed he (Proview International) sold all rights he had to the trademark, to a small British firm for what he considered a fair transaction. He was going to transfer the PRC trademark to IPAD (UK), and upon trying to do so found they were an agent for Apple. Yang felt cheated by IPAD’s non-disclosure of their Apple ties (though what IPAD and Apple did in terms of contract law was entirely legal in China), and he then had seller’s remorse. He probably tried to contact IPAD about details, who probably confirmed their ties with Apple. And Yang found out (maybe after consulting lawyers about his situation) that he could claim to still hold the PRC trademark (since he hadn’t yet transferred them as the contract stipulated he must do). His attorneys likely informed him that Apple and the original contract would dispute his version. So Yang, knowing Apple won’t pay him more (he probably had his attorneys contact them), decided to hurt Apple by mounting a media and legal/government-backed campaign (whatever support he could get) to try to make Apple give him more. What’s interesting is the US $1 billion in damages he’s seeking for trademark infringement. That seems outrageous considering the only real damage he’s suffered is embarrassment from knowing he could have gotten more than £35,000.

The Shenzhen court’s ruling seems valid and correct, that Proview (Shenzhen) owns the PRC trademark, but Apple’s point (I believe) is not whether they/Yang own it but that the contract required them to transfer the trademark to IPAD. Apple taking a breach of contract position will probably not be sufficient, but together with the clause for Hong Kong law to apply, this becomes an issue of whether PRC courts will remedy a HK breach of contract case. Since the only material asset Proview (all) seem to have is this one trademark, and given its creditors would be automatically included as parties to the contract, the only remedy possible for Apple (in a HK breach of contract case) is for them to be awarded Proview’s asset(s) as damages. It could be proven (and probably Apple’s reason for allowing Proview to continue in their destructive actions) that damages to Apple caused by Proview’s actions are far beyond what Proview (or its creditors) can/will pay – thus the PRC trademark should be the damage reward.

At the end of the day, the sole issue ultimately is how PRC courts will rule on HK law/contracts and their applicability within China. It seems difficult for PRC courts to rule against Apple, since that would mean they’re also reducing HK’s shine as a major business destination/gateway for foreign companies (i.e., showing that Hong Kong is NOT a stable/reliable business location because it’s laws are NOT supported / enforced by PRC). Don’t belief China would do that. Either way, Apple “wins”.

However I agree the legal issues may not be settled soon. A court-only battle benefits Apple since their distribution/sales probably won’t be affected (see news today), but this hurts Proview because their creditors won’t wait years (signaling them to settle earlier, and for much less than the $1 billion they’re dreaming of). The irony is, if Proview had taken a reasonable amount from Apple ($1 million), and invested that in Apple/Foxconn stocks, they will be much better off. Maybe Apple’s strategy is sound after all — they know more of the details than any of us. We should assume they are fully competent in this matter, in the absence of contrary evidence.

So apple cheated this guy by sending in a smaller company to buy the iPad name. If apple had gone in themselves to buy it the guy would have asked for more money.

Sounds like the guy should have checked further.

Also sounds like apple cheated the guy.
 
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Also sounds like apple cheated the guy.

Apple nearly always use third party companies to purchase names. Otherwise the whole world would have a better bet at what they were working on. It's not cheating – it's common sense.
 
Macrumors and WSJ are distorting facts here and make it sound like its all Proview's fault.

Truth is today there is no such as a single "Provew". Today Proview Shenzhen and its parent company are two seperate and independent entities sharing merely a name. Proview Shenzhen = the creditors of Proview Shenzhen.

The whole group is on the brink of bankrupcy and its oversea parent company lost control over Proview Shenzhen to the creditors.

Yes Proview Shenzhen's parent company agree to casue Proview Shenzhen to transfer the trademark.

But Proview Shenzhen is taken over by its creditors. And whatever its parent company as its shareholder say or decide (transfer of the trademark) is not binding on Proview Shenzhen unless they are able to repay the debts.

It's like whatever you agree to do(and court asked you to do) , you cannot legally do it unless you actually legally control it.

It is well within the legitimate rights of the creditors (aka Proview Shenzhen) to refuse to transfer the trademark, since the parerent company lost is legal power to tell Proview Shenzhen what to do. The HK court's ruling is absolutely correct. But it is a useless ruling because whatever the HK court require the parent company to do, the parent company had already lost its power and legal capacity to do so.

I do not understand why such simple facts become portrayed in a way like the country and its government is bullying Apple.

Should this happen in any other western country, Apple would in even bigger trouble, since Apple is clearly infringing a trademark legetimately owned and used by someone else for over a decade. The blame is totally on Apple. When you purchase something, it is your responsibility to find out whether the seller actually owns that thing. If you failed to do so, you bear the consequences. Simple as that.

Thank you! Someone with critical reading/reasoning abilities.

People on this board need to quit pitting this as a war between the big, bad Chinese government and a foreign corporation.
 
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So apple cheated this guy by sending in a smaller company to buy the iPad name. If apple had gone in themselves to buy it the guy would have asked for more money.

Sounds like the guy should have checked further.

Also sounds like apple cheated the guy.

Well, no. If the name "iPad" had been known at the time, and everyone who owned the trademark somewhere by chance had asked for beeeeelions, then Apple would have picked a different name, and they would have got nothing. Or Apple would have called it "Apple Pad" in China only, and they would have got nothing.

This way, they got a good amount of money for something that was worthless, unless Apple bought it. If you owned a plot of land, not knowing that there is a huge amount of oil in the ground, and I buy it knowing what it is worth, that is cheating, because the land is valuable, even though you don't know it. This trademark had no value, unless Apple bought it. And it only got the value because Apple released the iPad, _after_ paying for the trademark.


Before we feel any love for the China, or give a crap about the safety of their workers, please remember that we're dealing with communists. Read a little history, people, and about the millions of their own people that have been murdered, tortured and imprisoned.

Well, you picked that username yourself, so I assume that you knew what you were doing.
 
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Dirty, Stinking Commies

Before we feel any love for the China, or give a crap about the safety of their workers, please remember that we're dealing with communists. Read a little history, people, and about the millions of their own people that have been murdered, tortured and imprisoned.
 
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Seems smart move. Pull iPads (and other apple products) from resellers. Resellers loose money. Can't feed familly. Resellers take it out on proview and, chinese officials etc. china puts proview in its place and backs apple. Apple wins without fighting.

This has nothing to do with proview.
 
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I'm curious does anyone actually know what is going on? Too much bashing of china and people correcting each other....
 
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farleysmaster said:
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Seems smart move. Pull iPads (and other apple products) from resellers. Resellers loose money. Can't feed familly. Resellers take it out on proview and, chinese officials etc. china puts proview in its place and backs apple. Apple wins without fighting.

This has nothing to do with proview.

Yes it does. Effect the companies selling iPads = said companies hassle government to sort out the proview situation.

Fighting without fighting.
 
And create even more.

In all seriousness, this explanation sounds a lot more plausible than Apple neglecting to check if their agreement gave them the iPad copyright in China.

Nope, from my understanding:

  1. The agreement gave Apple use of the iPad trademark in China.
  2. Proview didn't transfer the use of the trademark as agreed by the terms of their contract with Apple.
  3. Proview is attempting to claim Apple has no rights to the mark, despite there being a legal contract to the contrary.
 
So apple cheated this guy by sending in a smaller company to buy the iPad name. If apple had gone in themselves to buy it the guy would have asked for more money.
Why should that happen?
When I go buy something, I am asked for a price, not how much money I have (nor who am I and what I want it for). Should it be different?

I think it is more typical to be asked how much money one has when being mugged :p.
 
Before we feel any love for the China, or give a crap about the safety of their workers, please remember that we're dealing with communists. Read a little history, people, and about the millions of their own people that have been murdered, tortured and imprisoned.

China isnt really a "communist" nation anymore. Sure there is corruption throughout their government but that happens everywhere, including here in the US.

EVentually as inflation and housing prices continue to rise in China the people will demand/require higher wages and their artificial bubble will burst. THus the cost of producing goods in China will rise and hopefully companies will take that opportunity to bring production jobs back to the US.
 
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Mimie - Please stop attaching spam links.
 
Why should that happen?
When I go buy something, I am asked for a price, not how much money I have (nor who am I and what I want it for). Should it be different?

I think it is more typical to be asked how much money one has when being mugged :p.

so true... good point LOL

Also Apple used a proxy to purchase the rights to keep it secret. Companies do it all the time.
 
Nope, from my understanding:

  1. The agreement gave Apple use of the iPad trademark in China.
  2. Proview didn't transfer the use of the trademark as agreed by the terms of their contract with Apple.
  3. Proview is attempting to claim Apple has no rights to the mark, despite there being a legal contract to the contrary.

In the UK, if you buy a house you must not, ever, hand over any money before the previous owner has moved out, or you could be in trouble - buying a house with a squatter inside, and enormous problems getting them out if they decide to stay and you don't want to take any illegal measures. Quite a similar situation.
 
Ok so china gets to make cheap fake knockoffs of our products, pirate all the media they want and flood the market with counterfeit products but an american company can't use a name the rest of the world recognizes as an apple trademark? I say the hell with china, keep on trucking and move your manufacturing facilities to another country. That'll show em.
 
Apple nearly always use third party companies to purchase names. Otherwise the whole world would have a better bet at what they were working on. It's not cheating – it's common sense.

Exactly and companies do this all the time. When Disney bought the land in Florida for Disney World, they did it through dummy corporations so that they wouldn't have to overpay for the land.

Is that cheating? Make your own decision, but the value of what you're selling shouldn't vary depending upon who is buying it.

Also, there's one issue that no one has discussed yet. In most contracts, there are indemnification clauses. When Apple (or their representative company) bought the rights to the trademark, my guess is that the contract had to indemnify them against other claims to the trademark. If not, then the Apple lawyers did indeed screw up. Also, when you buy a house, you generally buy title insurance to protect against someone other than the seller claiming title. I don't know if there's an equivalent for trademark acquisition, but I would be surprised if there wasn't such insurance.
 
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gnasher729 said:
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So apple cheated this guy by sending in a smaller company to buy the iPad name. If apple had gone in themselves to buy it the guy would have asked for more money.

Sounds like the guy should have checked further.

Also sounds like apple cheated the guy.

Well, no. If the name "iPad" had been known at the time, and everyone who owned the trademark somewhere by chance had asked for beeeeelions, then Apple would have picked a different name, and they would have got nothing. Or Apple would have called it "Apple Pad" in China only, and they would have got nothing.

This way, they got a good amount of money for something that was worthless, unless Apple bought it. If you owned a plot of land, not knowing that there is a huge amount of oil in the ground, and I buy it knowing what it is worth, that is cheating, because the land is valuable, even though you don't know it. This trademark had no value, unless Apple bought it. And it only got the value because Apple released the iPad, _after_ paying for the trademark.


Before we feel any love for the China, or give a crap about the safety of their workers, please remember that we're dealing with communists. Read a little history, people, and about the millions of their own people that have been murdered, tortured and imprisoned.

Well, you picked that username yourself, so I assume that you knew what you were doing.

Politely don't agree. If you came to buy my land I would sell it. If some oil company came to buy it I'd know it's value is much more. If an oil company send you to buy my land then that is sly and under handed.
 
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mijail said:
So apple cheated this guy by sending in a smaller company to buy the iPad name. If apple had gone in themselves to buy it the guy would have asked for more money.
Why should that happen?
When I go buy something, I am asked for a price, not how much money I have (nor who am I and what I want it for). Should it be different?

I think it is more typical to be asked how much money one has when being mugged :p.

Depends on the type of business. If I went to pro view to buy iPad name they would look at my business and determin it's value.

If apple went to buy iPad name the same would happen.

Now if apple sent me to buy the iPad name and the business looked at me instead of apple how would you feel if you were that business?

I'd feel robbed and cheated. How can you feel any other way?

Now if you were apple you'd feel happy. If that's how you like doing business.

Make sense?
 
This thing stunk of corruption, somewhere, at the very beginning. Glad this is being exposed for what it is– an extortion attempt.

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Depends on the type of business. If I went to pro view to buy iPad name they would look at my business and determin it's value.

If apple went to buy iPad name the same would happen.

Now if apple sent me to buy the iPad name and the business looked at me instead of apple how would you feel if you were that business?

I'd feel robbed and cheated. How can you feel any other way?

Now if you were apple you'd feel happy. If that's how you like doing business.

Make sense?

It certainly can't be shocking that large companies do this ALL THE TIME. It's why they file trademarks in low-tech, out-of-the-way countries first. It's why they have shell companies. It's why they have armies of lawyers whose job is to argue, not do what is Just or Right.

The fact that they feel upset that they couldn't wring more money out of the situation is that they got caught being lazy. Had they done due diligence, they maybe could have got more money out of the situation. But that doesn't make it any more correct in the eyes of the law.

The law is not justice. It's a set of rules to argue about.
 
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