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Anyway, that would be a petty little complaint even if it were true. You trolls must be really frustrated now that iPad is succeeding. I don't have time to read all 28 pages right now... but clearly, NOTHING negative that I've read so far matters in the real world. Sure, I'd like to be running Terminal.app on this iPad right now... but it's simply not designed for that kind of usage.

Some of the "geeks" in here lack perspective, and that's why they fail while Steve Jobs succeeds. Perhaps you simply weren't meant to understand.

I've often wondered, but why is it that some people seem to like painting a picture of Appler 'haters' being personally offended, as if they were kicking and screaming in a tantrum like manner? Apple 'hater' or Apple 'fanboy', we're talking about a company who are out to fleece as much money out of us as they possibly can. Where does the dillusion come from that people take this personally as if it were their own flesh and blood?!

It is definitely NEGATIVE that the iPad appears to have regressed back to a problem that plagued the iPhone 3G, but was fixed in the 3GS. You'd expect things to be getting better over what came before, not worse.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is your native language?

Your argument holds that 512MB was planned and then cut for margin reasons, irrespective of performance, to achieve a ~1% unit reduction. There is no evidence for this.

The thing is, you need evidence for the conspiracy theory first.

No.

That's generally how the future works, yes.

Could have, and plainly untrue. There are many possible and completely logical reasons why the decision was made, as previously detailed. You have not demonstrated the requisite elements of your argument.

Just more handwaving. If the difference in utility is greater than the difference in price, it goes in. Your gross oversimplification by your own admission fails to account for non-monetary costs and constraints.
It was never planned. It cost too much.

You are making it out into a big massive deal. When in reality it's not that big a deal at all. Power optimization and memory management aren't dependent on memory size. All good companies should optimise and manage memory regardless of the amount of memory available. As I said already phones that existed before the iPad have more RAM, are smaller and have less heat dissipation abilities than the iPad. Yet you go on about all these other factors, none of which you can describe, that are in play.

It's almost as if you didn't even read or understand any of my previous posts.
 
LOLZ, I have more than 256mb of RAM in my watch.

129149469025625282.jpg


lulz! 256mb? Is that 256 "millibits"?? Damn that sure is an epic FAIL amount of memory! ;)

In all seriousness -- people have been calling this iPad a paradigm shift. Clearly it's already a strong advocate of Apple's Anti-Flash/Pro-HTML5 Crusade. Is Apple also hoping or assuming that by throwing in a miniscule 256MB of RAM that programmers will become far less lazy than they currently are? Or is memory management on the iPad so good that programmers can continue to not being overly conscious of memory issues? I hope one of these two is true (preferably the latter) else our shiny new iPads may very well cave and crumble under the resource demands of their apps. :eek:
 
Wait for the next iphone OS, it won't be so blazing fast anymore. The iPhone and iPhone 3G used to be blazing fast when on 1.1.4 and 2.2.1. they aren't anymore. The iPad will be just like the Original iphone in 3 years. The Original iPhone was so slow when I upgraded to 3.0. It wasn't even fun to use it anymore. iPod took 8 seconds to open. I got a replacement iPhone, same thing. Even when set up as a new iPhone. Sure Apple could optimize 3.0 to run on it smoothly, but they want you to get the 3GS. Apple will do the same with the iPad. Just wait and see.

Wow... this is what I was going to say! Great post!

Good thing I'm still on 2.2.1 (Sorry, couldn't resist ;))

Anyway... 256MB isn't very futureproof. This is yet another reason why it's not going to replace a real computer. The fact that I can't even plug an iPod into it and sync it up is also a deal killer. Does anyone know if it has home sharing in iTunes too... or streaming from iTunes?

The iPad is a glorified book reader and internet browser. It's too big to be as portable as an iPod... might as well just get a real computer.
 
No page file on Ipad

So why all the concern of it's on-CPU memory? front side or back side? 32 bit addressing or 64? Why not just virtualize it on the HD? From your perspective clock speed doesn't matter...bla, bla, bla. How about how the CPU uses RAM?

More and more RAM helps the speed up to a point, then it's just excess power sucking load on the battery.

I do not even understand what you are trying to tell. If you need to process a document that has a size, say, 500MB, it does not matter what type of memory bus is used or how big the L1/L2 or L3 caches are and how CPU uses RAM. Computer will have to use slow memory for storing the data and it will be much slower than a computer with more RAM. Yes, it's that simple. I see you want to defend Apple design decision. Well, you can't.

But, the Iphone OS does not page (or swap, if you prefer) data out to the "disk" - so you have a serious restriction on the amount of data that you can handle.

You don't have the option of "letting the system use slower memory".


Although Mac OS X supports a backing store, iPhone OS does not. In iPhone applications, read-only data that is already on the disk (such as code pages) is simply removed from memory and reloaded from disk as needed. Writable data is never removed from memory by the operating system. Instead, if the amount of free memory drops below a certain threshold, the system asks the running applications to free up memory voluntarily to make room for new data. Applications that fail to free up enough memory are terminated.

http://developer.apple.com/iPhone/l...tual/ManagingMemory/Articles/AboutMemory.html
 
Both of you are overcomplicating things so much you've gone onto a tangential plane that doesn't exist in the realms of reality.

Let me spell it out for you.

R-E-S-T-A-R-T-I-N-G
I-S
B-E-T-T-E-R
T-H-A-N
E-X-I-T-I-N-G
F-O-R
M-E-M-O-R-Y

How can you justify that statement in an environment where each application lives in its own little sandbox, each application runs in its own isolated virtual address space, and given the constraint that the current application must exit (TERMINATE execution) before any other application is permitted to start up?

It doesn't matter if the application was poorly coded or not... once the application terminates, its sandbox is destroyed; its virtual address space ceases to exist; the OS's memory manager can deallocate every physical page of memory that used to be associated with the former process's PID.

Now, we have no choice but to hope that the select few applications that are allowed to multitask (eg. the built-in music player app) are not memory hogs, and do not contain any egregious leaks. And that the OS's memory manager is capable of identifying which physical pages of memory actually belong to which process, so they can be properly deallocated after the process terminates. If either of those conditions fail, then indeed the only choice is to restart the iPad.

(And in this case, "restart" means holding down the "sleep" button until the red shut down slider appears, then swiping the slider, then pressing the sleep button again to turn it on -- the OS will start from address zero, ignoring and overwriting all previous RAM contents as it reinitializes all the relevant data structures.)
 
I had resisted any interest in the iPad until my brother brought his over for Easter yesterday. And now I want one.

There has been a lot of back and forth about whether the ipad makes sense, and I think the only conclusion is that it doesn't fits everyones needs.

I have a dell mini 10v running windows 7. I upgraded the ram to 2GB and got the extended battery. I bought it after I moved and started taking a commuter train. Unfortunately my stop is the last stop inbound on an Express train meaning I don't usually get a seat. Instead of using my netbook, I spend more of the time just using my iphone to surf the web because I have the stand/lean against something.

On my way home where I am able to sit, I tried to use my dell mini to actually do work. Its really impossible to do anything that productive on a netbook(like run eclipse). The dell trackpad is also the worst trackpad in the world.

So my point is that a netbook isn't useful enough for me to be productive on a train so all I end up doing is surfing the web and checking email on it anyway. The iPad does everything I need while being smaller, lighter, and having better battery.

I only thing that I want to see before I would get one is what OS 4.0 brings to the table.
 
Yeah I know, but some attitudes really make me angery.

Wow, Dave, you really need to relax. 1/2 your points make a semblance of sense, but your irrational anger clouds them. Also, "[m]atte screens suck"? LOL. There are many reasons people like them -- including the basic one that they reduce glare.
They also are not as sharp and have poorer color saturation. In any event if this guy is the pro he says he is he would buy the best screen for the job no matter who the vendor is.

It is just very difficult to respect anybody that says I have $xxxx amount of dollars to play with and if Apple doesn't do exactly what I want I will take my money else where. Apple already has build to order how much more do these people expect Apple to bend over for them.
And really, you don't think that Apple's computer line has lagged even just a little bit since they diversified?
Nope, not really. Would it have been nice to see Apple adopt Arrandale right put of the gate. Possibly but Arrandale isn't always a performance win and frankly the next round of GPUs promise much more.

The thong is if Apple was to do a me too MBP then yeah they are a LITLE late. Personally I believe that the next MBP will be more than an Arrandale upgrade. For one I see LightPeak in Apples future. Second the rumors about Apple rejecting Arrandale due to the crappy integrated GPU could be real, I would not be surprised to see an Apple / Intel deal here possibly with NVidia involved. It's amayzing how quite the NVidia vs Intel spat has become, maybe Apple slapped some sense into the group.

Maybe I will wake up tomorrow and find that I'm wrong and that Apple has generic laptops for sale. I don't think that will happen because I still smell team work between Intel and Apple. Light Peak is just part of that behind the curtain activity.
I'm not saying they shouldn't diversify, but there really haven't been too many break-throughs in their computer line as of late.
Break throughs often don't follow a time table. But really think about where Apple is with the current MBP line up. It is still a powerhouse of innovation. What many seem to think is that the only important thing is the next Intel processor, of course there is nothing wrong with that but that is not innovation from Apple. It is simply slapping in a new motherboard. In effect you can't expect innovation from Apple on Intels time table.

By the way the time to be disappointed is when the new MBPs come put and there is nothing new beyound an Arrandale processor. I'm not getting worked up before then though as long waits usually mean major overhauls at Apple.
And a couple need a refresh pretty soon (e.g., mac pro). And please don't give me a unibody mac argument -- I'm not sure what that really does for the consumer, although I bet it reduced Apple's costs quite a bit.

Actually I'd be more worried about MBP refreshes if I was Apple. No matter how you look at it the Mac Pro is a machine that doesn't go through minor refreshes often.

Given that, if you where Apple would you have refreshed the Mac Pro early this year knowing that a few months down the road you would have to reimplement for new technology? The Mac Pro simply isn't a high volume machine that one can justify quarterly or semi annual major updates on. So Apple updates when the tech is ready.

Look at it this way, this isn't the first time in forums like this that we have seen such crying about the Mac Pro. If people need quickly updated machines then they have to look at the iMacs, that is Apples high volume computer. If you are into the Mac Pro line thinking it is a machine that gets updated on less than a yearly schedule then you are buying the wrong platform.

Don't get me wrong here it would be nice if Apple where to get with it and market a high volume desktop computer. That is a computer using classical desktop parts. The Mac Pro however is not this machine. It never will be either because it is built for a different market.


Dave
 
I had resisted any interest in the iPad until my brother brought his over for Easter yesterday. And now I want one.

I'm in the same boat. Had no plans to buy until Rev B, then I played with one at Best Buy. Now I want one badly, and I don't want to be missing out on all the fun while waiting for the next model to come along.

Really a remarkable device. It definitely exceeded my expectations.
 
I think you missed my point.

That because you don't understand how it works. Lets take your image, its a 22mpixel camera, 14bit pr color in RAW. On disk its lossless compressed (file size is not equal memory requirements). Since stuff is stored in multiple of 8bit, to work with a image in code, each color will be stored in 16 bit units. so the memory need to load and work on this image will be:
22M*3(RGB)*2Byte(16bit pr color) = 132mbyte of memory needed.

@Ries - I didn't mention a) the pixels or b) the amount of memory needed to load and work with the image. So I'm not sure what you think I didn't understand? (For the record, I stated the size of the RAW image on the memory card.)

And none of the above has anything to do with my post. To reiterate: the original argument was invalid as no one would seriously attempt to make a montage of 6 RAW images on a 9.7" screen.
 
I'm in the same boat. Had no plans to buy until Rev B, then I played with one at Best Buy. Now I want one badly, and I don't want to be missing out on all the fun while waiting for the next model to come along.

Really a remarkable device. It definitely exceeded my expectations.

Exactly what happened in my case. Prior to launch I wasn't quite sold on the device and I certainly had no intention of being at any Apple store on launch day; I'm just not into that kind of chaos. Then on launch day I heard Best Buy had a good amount of them in stock. Figured I'd stop by and fiddle with one for a bit just for the hell of it. Did just that -- fiddled for about 10 minutes with the core apps and walked out with a 64GB iPad.

It's unwise to pass judgement about anything without any experience to back up that judgement. For anyone here who has passed judgement on the device without experience of it, at least try one out in a store. Maybe you'll hate it and your judgement will stick. And maybe you'll love it. Who knows! ;-)
 
Did just that -- fiddled for about 10 minutes with the core apps and walked out with a 64GB iPad.

Lucky! When I got back to the car (at Best Buy) my wife glared at me and said "You better not have bought one." Fortunately for my health and safety, I hadn't.

Apparently I need to formulate my acquisition plan. ;)
 
Lucky! When I got back to the car (at Best Buy) my wife glared at me and said "You better not have bought one." Fortunately for my health and safety, I hadn't.

Apparently I need to formulate my acquisition plan. ;)

Be sure to share any tips. I'll undoubtedly be having the same discussion with my missus at the end of the month.... I may be able to sway her by showing her "the precious" and letting her fall in love with it herself. :p
 
Lucky! When I got back to the car (at Best Buy) my wife glared at me and said "You better not have bought one." Fortunately for my health and safety, I hadn't.

Apparently I need to formulate my acquisition plan. ;)

I plan on selling my netbook and other assorted stuff to start an iPad fund. I figure my gf can't be too upset about it then, except that she won't have an ipad to play with :)
 
Be sure to share any tips. I'll undoubtedly be having the same discussion with my missus at the end of the month.... I may be able to sway her by showing her "the precious" and letting her fall in love with it herself. :p

I do have the iPhone in my corner. She got my original one when I got the 3GS. She said she had no use for an iPhone and that I should probably just sell it, I asked her to give it a try for a month. Now she would never part with it.

If I make the "it's a big iPhone" argument, she might just see the value of having an iPad around. I have a white MacBook that doesn't see much use and could easily be replaced with an iPad - my MacBook is mainly for light use during travel and sofa sitting. The iPad would be a fantastic replacement in those situations. So it looks like my iPad fund will soon be underway. :)
 
What a ridiculous thread.
There's almost no intelligent discussion on whether or not 256MB is "enough" or not. It's been drowned out. It looks to me like a lot of people are jumping on this to justify their precoceived feelings about the iPad.

Remember: just because you don't need/want one doesn't mean no one should.

My guess is that 256 is plenty, even once general multitasking comes (hopefully it does come, and soon).

What RAM is needed[/] for is to hold the state of the current app... It's code, views, controls, open documents and current resources. Anythng beyond this is cache--nice to have, but not needed.

We can estimate the size of code and resources by
looking at the size of various apps. most of my iPhone apps are 10mb and under, so no problems there. I have a few big ones: e.g., Navigon and Madden. But obviously, these consist of a lot of resources (map data, graphics) that do not need to be loaded. Actually, should not be loaded, no matter how much RAM is available, becuase it is a waste of time to load something that won't be used.

Apps tend to use a certain amount of RAM As a workspace to compose graphics offscreen for display. A full frame buffer on a 1024x768x32 bit display is 3MB. that's not really going to push the available ram. You can have several screens worth of workspace without stress. Remember, I'm talking about workspace, not cache or resources. Also, this is only for the current, forground app.

I think it's only going to be large/many open documents that could cause problems. But it's hardly insurmountable from an app development standpoint. E.g., you probably can load very large word processing and spreadsheet docs, by simply leaving any media elements (bitmaps, video, audio) unloaded, and load/stream them only as needed.
 
Memory size doesn't say everything. The iPhone 3G has only 64 MB runtime memory - all other memory is just storage. Questions are: how well is the OS using the available memory? Windows is known to be quite a memory hog. Where Windows 7 requires at least 512 MB to run sluggishly and 2 GB to run smoothly, a Linux box can do with 64 MB easily. OS-X is somewhere in between.

Far more important is how quick the OS can swap memorybanks. Especially in the iPad, iPhone etc. this is interesting: how quick is the storage memory? And how quick can it swap? Remember the old days of EMS vs. XMS? I'd prefer as much XMS as possible, with quick EMS to complete it.
 
A bluetooth keyboard is far from portable, it's better to have a keyboard and display in one package.

Apple's update schedule has been yearly. Widnows XP's was 6 years.

The PS3 only has 256MB of RAM, too (though with much more powerful hardware and dedicated video memory compared to an iPad). The PSP has 32MB. It's not a tremendous limitation. It all comes down to the developer.

The real games are going to take a while to develop, and people are going to have to cough up more than $5-10 if they want envelope-pushing titles.

So use a Bluetooth keyboard if that's their concern.

Your Windows 98 computer multitasked just fine, and it almost certainly had less power than an iPad. The typical PC in 2000 had a 5-600MHz P3 and 128MB--more than double the power of the typical Pentium MMX 1998 system from the launch. Both of those are less powerful than an iPad.

And despite that, a less than smooth user experience based on the early reviews.

You got to be kidding me...

"Apple's agressive yearly update schedule"

LOL
 
In theory, that's all nice and dandy. The problem in the real world, however, is that today's DSLRs produce RAW images that have 50MB+ in size per photo, that movies in 1080p are easily 4 to 8 GBs big and that an average high quality mp3 also easily has more than 10 MB.

Now you want to actually edit and manipulate one or two or three of those files. Let's say you want to create a collage from six of those high resolution RAW images. Or you want to create an audio file with eight tracks.

And you want to do that on your fancy iPad, which is ah-so capable.

You will quicker run out of those 256MB memory than you can imagine, and the thing will start swapping like crazy. If it even -can- swap memory.
The OS architecture fundamentally can swap. But out of the box, there is no swap partition or swapfile or whatever else you may call it. And to create a swap requires an unauthorized hack (jailbreaking).

Anyway, the iPad is being pushed as a device that consumes digital media. (I look at it as a digital picture frame with some extras added in.)

It is not being pushed as a device that ought to be used to do any extensive creation of digital media, and anybody who thinks they'll be able to use it as such, is deluding himself.
 
And yet miraculously, the iPad does not suck at browsing, word processing, or displaying images. It does all of those things _very_ well, at least at the level that most people would ever do them. Can you explain that?

only being able to hold 3 webpages before it has to resort to tax your 3G subscription is "working very well"?
 
Memory size doesn't say everything. The iPhone 3G has only 64 MB runtime memory - all other memory is just storage. Questions are: how well is the OS using the available memory? Windows is known to be quite a memory hog. Where Windows 7 requires at least 512 MB to run sluggishly and 2 GB to run smoothly, a Linux box can do with 64 MB easily. OS-X is somewhere in between.

Far more important is how quick the OS can swap memorybanks. Especially in the iPad, iPhone etc. this is interesting: how quick is the storage memory? And how quick can it swap? Remember the old days of EMS vs. XMS? I'd prefer as much XMS as possible, with quick EMS to complete it.

iPhone 3G has 128MB of RAM.
 
iPhone 3G has 128MB of RAM.

I think they are implying only half is available for application usage. My 3GS (according to sysstatlite) has about 100MB available after a reboot. Currently it is telling me I have 71.8 MB free.
 

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You are less than 5% of the whole technology consuming public. You're a bitchy and whiny minority, and you don't really matter to Apple at all. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but they do not care about you.
--mAc

I wonder what other minority represents 5% of the community and yet by their crowings on messageboards and comments sections you would think they owned the internet? I probably have to explain this one, it's Mac users. Most Mac users think they are 10% but that stat is America.

Sorry, some of us just find it silly that most personal computers ship with the windows logo hardcoded to two of the keys, AND have a sense of humour. Try a MS forum next time.

Yes jokes about Apple go down a treat here.

People complaining about Safari reloading tabs must have never used Safari on an iPhone, it does the same thing.

That is their point. The iPad shouldn't be reloading tabs. The behaviour is acceptable on a mobile phone where browsing the net could be considered secondary. For the iPad it's one of its primary functions.

So my point is that a netbook isn't useful enough for me to be productive on a train so all I end up doing is surfing the web and checking email on it anyway. The iPad does everything I need while being smaller, lighter, and having better battery.

And costing twice as much. And not having any way to plug in a USB stick or a webcam or any other device except a camera.

What a ridiculous thread.
There's almost no intelligent discussion on whether or not 256MB is "enough" or not. It's been drowned out. It looks to me like a lot of people are jumping on this to justify their precoceived feelings about the iPad.

Remember: just because you don't need/want one doesn't mean no one should.

My guess is that 256 is plenty, even once general multitasking comes (hopefully it does come, and soon).

What RAM is needed[/] for is to hold the state of the current app... It's code, views, controls, open documents and current resources. Anythng beyond this is cache--nice to have, but not needed.

We can estimate the size of code and resources by
looking at the size of various apps. most of my iPhone apps are 10mb and under, so no problems there. I have a few big ones: e.g., Navigon and Madden. But obviously, these consist of a lot of resources (map data, graphics) that do not need to be loaded. Actually, should not be loaded, no matter how much RAM is available, becuase it is a waste of time to load something that won't be used.

Apps tend to use a certain amount of RAM As a workspace to compose graphics offscreen for display. A full frame buffer on a 1024x768x32 bit display is 3MB. that's not really going to push the available ram. You can have several screens worth of workspace without stress. Remember, I'm talking about workspace, not cache or resources. Also, this is only for the current, forground app.

I think it's only going to be large/many open documents that could cause problems. But it's hardly insurmountable from an app development standpoint. E.g., you probably can load very large word processing and spreadsheet docs, by simply leaving any media elements (bitmaps, video, audio) unloaded, and load/stream them only as needed.


What happens if you want to copy and paste something from the web? Streaming those images is going to get irksome after a while as you switch back and forth between Safari and Pages. Lets hope Safari doesn't reload the webpage each time either, eating into your 3G limit and wasting your time. I agree that the OS probably doesn't require many resources because it runs on a phone, but really, if I were paying this amount of money I would expect it to be more powerful than a phone, and not just in terms of a processor.
 
In theory, that's all nice and dandy. The problem in the real world, however, is that today's DSLRs produce RAW images that have 50MB+ in size per photo, that movies in 1080p are easily 4 to 8 GBs big and that an average high quality mp3 also easily has more than 10 MB.

Now you want to actually edit and manipulate one or two or three of those files. Let's say you want to create a collage from six of those high resolution RAW images. Or you want to create an audio file with eight tracks.

And you want to do that on your fancy iPad, which is ah-so capable.

You will quicker run out of those 256MB memory than you can imagine, and the thing will start swapping like crazy. If it even -can- swap memory.

And memory costs nothing these days. The only reason why Apple has not put more memory into that device is that they wanted to squeeze as much profit in those USD 499 as possible. End of discussion.

What really annoys me is this endless circle that somebody compare to the Stockholm syndrom:

Apple releases a product WITHOUT dozens of features that people actually wanted. But you will always have an army of self proclaimed Apple defenders and fanboys who will find millions of excuses why you don't need any of those features. Or why Apple's much weaker features are still okay compared to the competition that's technologically years ahead. For example, a 1 Megapixel camera in a mobile device compared to 5 Megapixel cameras (with Zeiss lenses) that are in competing products - and still everybody will say that Apple's outdated and inferior technology is "just fine".

If Apple was going to release a computer without a CPU, you'd probably still find Apple fanboys who'd defend that.

Apple has products that are worth their price. I just don't think that the iPhone, iPod and iPad are among them - especially not with all the artificial restrictions in those devices that are only there to make the customer a slave to iTunes and the AppStore.

I don't think too many people expected to be able to use the iPad as a RAW image editing workstation. Nor an 8-track mixer -- though I can state from personal experience, 256MB is far more than enough to do so (audio was born to stream so you don't need much actual RAM. It actually just slows things down to load audio before playing it anyway.)

Also, RAM costs more than money. It costs power, size and weight -- all things that should be minimized. And it is silly to dismiss the dollar cost of the additional RAM. It would cost most. Meaning the iPad would cost more.

You threw out "Stockholm syndrom" (even though it doesn't make sense since there's no element of coercion anywhere), but you're the one who has failed to make reasonable arguments on why 256MB is so bad.

Surely unreasoning hatred of a device is at least a bad as unreasoning love of one, right?
 
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