You said "but not really a full time one for many users."
That's a fair point I hadn't considered. It was my second Mac. If I had to use 12 inches for everything everyday?
Could not do it.
You've changed my mind.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
iPhone 12 Mini Missing From Top 5 Best Selling Smartphone List of January 2021
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
That's a fair point I hadn't considered. It was my second Mac. If I had to use 12 inches for everything everyday?
Could not do it.
You've changed my mind.
Fair enough. Like I said, let’s see what happens when people start to move around a little more.
It may well be that if they can keep on shaving a few mm (EDIT: off the bezel) - and $ - off the regular ip 12 size, that’ll be the sweet spot for most.
Calling it iPhone mini makes it seem like a whole different product, it should be called iPhone 12 in two different sizes. They don't call the 21.5" iMac the iMac mini. I'm happy with it, and picked one up once the rumors of low sales started. If it merges with the SE line again and sticks around as the solid low end iPhone option, like the base iPad, it'll be in a better position.
Also, I wonder how much the mini is there to drive the average selling price of iPhones up a little bit more, and if the mini sales are additional sales or poached from the regular 12.
It just seems those who want cheap and small are more than small and flagship (or near flagship) buyers. A flagship small phone is really trying to satisfy three different groups, and better value/flagship are at opposite ends of buyers.
Also, I wonder how much the mini is there to drive the average selling price of iPhones up a little bit more, and if the mini sales are additional sales or poached from the regular 12.
It just seems those who want cheap and small are more than small and flagship (or near flagship) buyers. A flagship small phone is really trying to satisfy three different groups, and better value/flagship are at opposite ends of buyers.
I think in general that large phone users may underestimate how much some of us mini/smaller sized phone users absolutely hate large phones. It's not just dislike - it's hate.
I don't want a giant heavy item in my pocket, nor do I want a screen that I can't easily tap everywhere with one hand.
I don't want a giant heavy item in my pocket, nor do I want a screen that I can't easily tap everywhere with one hand.
While I am a huge fan of large phones, I hope the market continues to provide options for more than just me.
Now thing everyone should be able to agree with---there is a phone size for everyone. How long that lasts? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess I fall in line with one - scratch that - make it 2 goobers in our household. I had the choice of signing with several carriers when the 12 line came out, and ultimately stuck with Metro by T-Mobile. Some might say their experience with Metro is not as good as others, but they do use T-Mobile's network. I've been with them for almost 20 years (since they were VoiceStream).
We bought 2 iPhone 12 minis - and paid outright for the unlocked ones. For two reasons:
We had iPhone 7s's for several years now.
Unlimited 5G data
Living in the Dallas/Fort Worth, TX area - the corporate home of Metro, we clock in around 27-35 mbps. I don't want a large screen phone. Maybe when my eyes go bad.
That's fine that you don't like big phones, but the point is you are a small minority market. I think it says something when the much, much, much more expensive iPhone 12 Pro Max alone sells 5X as many phones as the cheapest 2020 iPhone, the iPhone 12 mini.
No one is doubting the larger iPhones are more popular; but that's not the point. A smaller form factor iPhone enables Apple to target a market segment they may miss if they don't offer one, and those consumers may opt for a non-iPhone that meats their needs. Targeting them enables Apple to expand their market share, which has value beyond the margin the phones generate. Given the small form factor phones together represent about 2% of the market I'd say its a worthwhile segment to target.
You are stating the obvious.
The point of the arguments earlier is to discuss what point does Apple give up on that target market. My argument is that Apple severely overestimated demand, and when it didn't sell anywhere near expectations they had to severely cut production of it, and that puts the iPhone mini in jeopardy. Others here say it's not the fault of the mini's design, but the fault of the pricing. I happen to agree with that but that's besides the point, because the mini costs what it costs.
Would Apple be willing to drop the price significantly? Maybe, but there's just as much of a chance that Apple would drop the product completely.
I used the 12" MacBook as an example because it falls into the same category. It's a cut-down product which pleased a lot of people, but it was small slice of the overall market, and Apple priced the 12" MacBook too high for it to get a lot of traction. Even though I like form factor, I had to grit my teeth to shell out for it, even though I can write it off with my business. A lot of people instead just chose a different product because as nice as the form factor was, it just wasn't a great value. In most people's eyes, the iPhone 12 is much, much better value than the iPhone 12 mini.
Apple did keep the MacBook 12" around a while and did try to fix some of its deficiencies (like that crappy keyboard initially), but they never dropped the price, and unfortunately at that price the customers simply didn't bite. Or correction, yes they did bite, but they didn't bite enough. Us few 12" MacBook diehards simply weren't enough to keep it afloat.
Sure, Apple could gain mini buyers if they dropped the price, but we all said the same thing about the 12" MacBook too. However, for whatever reasons Apple just stood firm on the 12" MacBook pricing before they simply cancelled it. One can only hope they choose a different path this time, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that happening.
Wow this thread was nuts - I read the whole thing. How you can see 7th in the world in the world as a complete flop is crazy to me. Then again, trolls going to troll.
If we believe the supply chain reporting, then yes Apple appeared to have significantly overestimated the demand for the mini. But this doesnt mean people who wanted a mini were wrong, just that the demand at this time wasnt as big as Apple predicted. While individuals on here might have predicted it would be a high seller, i think most people who wanted one, just felt like there was a decent market for it. 7th in the world, is a pretty decent market. For all we know the basis for Apple's estimate could have been unrelated factors to form size, such as Apple may have thought due to the pandemic, buyers might have bought the mini due to its lower cost but with most of the premium features. Or they might have thought it would be over by the time it shipped and thought commuters would appreciate it. I definitely think the advantage of the mini form factor is less appealing when you are stuck at home.
I havent seen any mention, in this thread, that its really likely that the launch of the SE about 6 months or so earlier really cannibalised a lot of sales of the mini. A lot of people holding out for a smaller phone thought that would be the next SE (look at the comments on the SE launch section), and when the next SE was not the small phone of their dreams, I think a lot of people gave up waiting and caved on the SE or something else. So, i think there is probably a decent contingent of people who want an 12 mini but cant justify it because they recently caved and bought something else sick of waiting for a mini form factor. Realistically, if the mini is an ongoing model this isnt an issue, they'll eventually upgrade and join, but I think it did suck some of the momentum out of the mini.
It's also clear, that the market for a small phone is mixed, perhaps 50-50, between those who want a small phone with every feature, and those who want a small phone because they think it should be cheap (but for some reason didnt get an SE?). I find the it should be small and cheap crowd strange because miniaturisation usually costs more, not less, of course Apple could use older and cheaper components, but why. I mean buy a 12 mini when the 13mini launches then. I guess the thinking behind the cheap crowd is, they want it small because they barely use it, so they just want the bare minimum for a decent price. I think the small but premium crowd actually do use their phone a lot, but probably not for consuming content, and or just favour the reachability of the phone over viewing size. But looking at people's posts, its kind of stupid to be like, it would have sold more if it was cheaper, no **** sherlock, same with every product basically.
I also note a lot of comments on here about how the telephone is better than a wide. I think Apple's research shows this is not true for most users. Personally, in my experience on an 11 pro, and previous phones with telephotos, i actually find the telephoto performance very disappointing and not distinguishable in many settings from cropping in on the regular. I really wish the telephone was as goods as the 'regular' lens.
I agree with Eugw, that despite being a top 7 selling phone, there is some risk that Apple changes it plans long term for the mini based on it significantly underperforming expectations. But part of that depends on what their expectations were for future launches, perhaps they thought only this launch would be better.
Then they would also have to consider they have sunk costs already in this formfactor, so if it remains profitable it may makes sense to keep it for the time being in the line up until the next full design overhaul. Then they also have to factor in does it improve sales of the higher end models, is it a wedge that pushes people to spending more on the larger phones. So the calculation for them could be quite complex.
I also wonder, given supply chain constraints for electronics globally whether part of the downscale for the mini production, might be because they want to use some of those components in more expensive phones with better margins.
Then they also could retool the mini as many have suggested into the more budget phone.
I actually think 7th in the world, is better than I would have predicted based on recent reporting and suggests 1) Apple's internal predictions were likely insanely optimistic, and 2)
Finally, on the production reports, even if we do believe them. Whose to say the reason is significant under performance. Perhaps, it was most economical to run it at a large scale for a few months before scaling it back so they could use that capacity for something else. I guess what i'm saying is, there is more than one reason why you might cut back production and only Apple knows why it (supposedly) did.
If we believe the supply chain reporting, then yes Apple appeared to have significantly overestimated the demand for the mini. But this doesnt mean people who wanted a mini were wrong, just that the demand at this time wasnt as big as Apple predicted. While individuals on here might have predicted it would be a high seller, i think most people who wanted one, just felt like there was a decent market for it. 7th in the world, is a pretty decent market. For all we know the basis for Apple's estimate could have been unrelated factors to form size, such as Apple may have thought due to the pandemic, buyers might have bought the mini due to its lower cost but with most of the premium features. Or they might have thought it would be over by the time it shipped and thought commuters would appreciate it. I definitely think the advantage of the mini form factor is less appealing when you are stuck at home.
I havent seen any mention, in this thread, that its really likely that the launch of the SE about 6 months or so earlier really cannibalised a lot of sales of the mini. A lot of people holding out for a smaller phone thought that would be the next SE (look at the comments on the SE launch section), and when the next SE was not the small phone of their dreams, I think a lot of people gave up waiting and caved on the SE or something else. So, i think there is probably a decent contingent of people who want an 12 mini but cant justify it because they recently caved and bought something else sick of waiting for a mini form factor. Realistically, if the mini is an ongoing model this isnt an issue, they'll eventually upgrade and join, but I think it did suck some of the momentum out of the mini.
It's also clear, that the market for a small phone is mixed, perhaps 50-50, between those who want a small phone with every feature, and those who want a small phone because they think it should be cheap (but for some reason didnt get an SE?). I find the it should be small and cheap crowd strange because miniaturisation usually costs more, not less, of course Apple could use older and cheaper components, but why. I mean buy a 12 mini when the 13mini launches then. I guess the thinking behind the cheap crowd is, they want it small because they barely use it, so they just want the bare minimum for a decent price. I think the small but premium crowd actually do use their phone a lot, but probably not for consuming content, and or just favour the reachability of the phone over viewing size. But looking at people's posts, its kind of stupid to be like, it would have sold more if it was cheaper, no **** sherlock, same with every product basically.
I also note a lot of comments on here about how the telephone is better than a wide. I think Apple's research shows this is not true for most users. Personally, in my experience on an 11 pro, and previous phones with telephotos, i actually find the telephoto performance very disappointing and not distinguishable in many settings from cropping in on the regular. I really wish the telephone was as goods as the 'regular' lens.
I agree with Eugw, that despite being a top 7 selling phone, there is some risk that Apple changes it plans long term for the mini based on it significantly underperforming expectations. But part of that depends on what their expectations were for future launches, perhaps they thought only this launch would be better.
Then they would also have to consider they have sunk costs already in this formfactor, so if it remains profitable it may makes sense to keep it for the time being in the line up until the next full design overhaul. Then they also have to factor in does it improve sales of the higher end models, is it a wedge that pushes people to spending more on the larger phones. So the calculation for them could be quite complex.
I also wonder, given supply chain constraints for electronics globally whether part of the downscale for the mini production, might be because they want to use some of those components in more expensive phones with better margins.
Then they also could retool the mini as many have suggested into the more budget phone.
I actually think 7th in the world, is better than I would have predicted based on recent reporting and suggests 1) Apple's internal predictions were likely insanely optimistic, and 2)
Finally, on the production reports, even if we do believe them. Whose to say the reason is significant under performance. Perhaps, it was most economical to run it at a large scale for a few months before scaling it back so they could use that capacity for something else. I guess what i'm saying is, there is more than one reason why you might cut back production and only Apple knows why it (supposedly) did.
Ironically the 12” Macbook is now ripe for a return, as it is perfect for fanless AS M chips like the new macbook air. Can you imagine all that power in a device thinner than the Air!!!
Kuo: 2022 iPhones to Feature 48-Megapixel Camera, 8K Video, and 6.1 and 6.7" Sizes With No 5.4" Mini Option
The upcoming 2022 iPhone lineup will feature two 6.1-inch devices and two 6.7-inch devices, with no mini-sized 5.4-inch iPhone, well-respected Apple...
www.macrumors.com
The 12Mini was supposed to be a success... Jonathan Morrision YT video talking about why it failed is spot on. Particularly about the introduction of the iPhone SE early in 2020, it was tough for 12MIni to compete when the customers that Apple was targeting... already upgraded earlier in the year.Apple introduced the 5.4-inch iPhone mini in the iPhone 12 lineup and plans to continue to sell a 5.4-inch device in 2021, but it looks like the size will be discontinued after that, if Kuo's information is accurate. The iPhone 12 mini has not been selling as well as expected, according to multiple iPhone sales estimates.Kuo: 2022 iPhones to Feature 48-Megapixel Camera, 8K Video, and 6.1 and 6.7" Sizes With No 5.4" Mini Option
The upcoming 2022 iPhone lineup will feature two 6.1-inch devices and two 6.7-inch devices, with no mini-sized 5.4-inch iPhone, well-respected Apple...
If I was in the market for an iPhone, I'll definitely own a 12Mini. Which odd for me to say... while owning a Fold2. It just brings me back those iPhone 4/5 vibes.. I think those were the best iPhone designs.
I have an original SE, which is the same size as the iPhone 5. It still runs the latest version of iOS but it is a pain to use on iOS 14. The OS simply isn’t built for it anymore. It just feels way too cramped. iOS now just isn’t the same as it was a half dozen years ago. The same goes for some apps.
The 12 mini’s size is OK, but for most users it isn’t really a good value which is why most would rather just pay the extra hundred bucks and get the 12.
Ironically, the speed of iOS 14 is actually fine on the original SE. It’s specifically the size that is the problem. Our 6s is much more pleasant to use on iOS 14, despite having the same internals as the SE.
I agree with this.. however, that footprint is hard to ignore. There’s no other smartphone out there in that size that can perform the way that it does… I feel as if that’s a value in itself. But I know what your getting at, most consumers look at the price.
IMHO it was one of the most beautiful Macs ever. Design was just 10 steps ahead of processor technology at the time.
I'd welcome its return.
The SE2 is a better value IMO than the 12 mini. The mini tried to be a premium product in the value class, but that experiment failed.
Before the mini launched, I predicted a mini, but LTE with an LCD screen for a lower price, and with no SE2 release. I was obviously wrong, but in retrospect I wonder if that might have been a better idea. Maybe, maybe not.
Value wise... I totally get your point. As far as, dollar for dollar.. there’s no arguing that the SE 2020 is a better value than the 12 Mini. I’m speaking primarily on the performance, which is why I feel that there’s no smartphone out there that can outperform the 12 Mini at that size. And I don’t think Apple was aiming on trying to make it a value “type” of product.
Because if that was the case… they would of done what you mention, put in LTE with an LCD screen and call it a day. I feel as though Apple was trying to target people who wanted a premium smartphone in a smaller package. Me personally, I was one of those people.
What are you getting at? A small minority have been clamoring for a small phone since 2014. I don’t know what research Apple did but with the mini sales being so low I’m sure they made a mistake in thinking people wanted small phones.
In general I do agree that those that prefer small phones are a minority, but I think the current stats definitely underrepresent these people because of presence of the SE and release timeline.
It wouldn't surprise me if the 12 mini could do 20% of iPhone sales compared to the regular 12 if better timed (or priced).
It wouldn't surprise me if the 12 mini could do 20% of iPhone sales compared to the regular 12 if better timed (or priced).
Realtors always say any home will sell, as long as it's priced right. That doesn't mean Apple will ever price it right. It never did with the 12" MacBook.