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iPhone 4 may be dropping as many as 100% more calls than iPhone 3GS

dvrk547 said:
But.... it's zero. It's not a number that is a little bit more than zero. It's zero. How come the limit of some sequence suddenly changes value??? :confused:
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Consider a phone that drops 1 call. How many times worse is it than a phone that drops:

0.1
0.01
0.001
0.0001
0.00001
...

So how much worse than the perfect phone do you think it will be?
 
cube said:
Nobody is saying that it is actually infinitely worse, only that the presentation has the leeway for it.
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Why does the presentation has the leeway for it? How come a phone be infinitely worse than somephone? (And yet still better than other phones)
 
solarein said:
No, I think he did not present the facts in a neutral way, but rather in a way that's most favorable to his company. As to whether "100%" or "1 more in 100" is more meaningful to the consumer, I don't think we can make such sweeping generalizations, each consumer will prefer one over another due to individual preferences and circumstances.
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First understand that Apple didn't state exactly how many calls the 3GS drops. It is known however that <1 more is dropped on the iPhone 4. You say that the "iPhone 4 may be dropping as many as 100% more calls than the iPhone 3GS"....well yes, but that's only when the number of calls dropped is 1. The percentage of calls dropped decreases as the number goes up. So if the iPhone 3GS drops 55 calls, the iPhone 4 must drop 56, which is only 2% more and nowhere near 100%

100% more dropped calls is misleading if you don't know if the amount of calls that the 3GS drops is 1 or 30. But we know that it's less than one more per 100, which is miniscule.
 
cube said:
Consider a phone that drops 1 call. How many times worse is it than a phone that drops:

0.1
0.01
0.001
0.0001
0.00001
...

So how much worse than the perfect phone do you think it will be?
Click to expand...

Can you choose some number for the latter phone, please? I think it should be some static number.
 
I told you already. You can "add" any finite number to infinity, it will still be the same infinity.
 
cube said:
I told you already. You can "add" any finite number to infinity, it will still be the same infinity.
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But you said I can't divide by zero. How can it be infinity? I'm confused. :confused: And no, limit is limit. It doesn't suddenly make 1/0 have some value.
 
solarein said:
No, I think he did not present the facts in a neutral way, but rather in a way that's most favorable to his company. As to whether "100%" or "1 more in 100" is more meaningful to the consumer, I don't think we can make such sweeping generalizations, each consumer will prefer one over another due to individual preferences and circumstances.
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I never said he did it in a way that the consumer would prefer. I said he did it in a way that most fairly (fairly referring to the negativity each type of discussed statement would draw, each statement being Jobs and the two made here, the "100%" one or the "2x" one, compared to how negative the actual data is) represented the facts. The only segment of consumers that this data was misrepresented to through Jobs method was those that would rather avoid risking an additional dropped call than what was experienced on the 3GS. Any other conclusions are illogical in the sense that their support would be deriving from an iP4 vs. 3GS statement, and an AT&T report that doesn't fairly represent the iP4/3GS statement anyway.
 
i don't think i even make 100 calls throughout the life of the time I own the phone, so I wouldn't even know...
 
brayhite said:
I never said he did it in a way that the consumer would prefer. I said he did it in a way that most fairly (fairly referring to the negativity each type of discussed statement would draw, each statement being Jobs and the two made here, the "100%" one or the "2x" one, compared to how negative the actual data is) represented the facts. The only segment of consumers that this data was misrepresented to through Jobs method was those that would rather avoid risking an additional dropped call than what was experienced on the 3GS. Any other conclusions are illogical in the sense that their support would be deriving from an iP4 vs. 3GS statement, and an AT&T report that doesn't fairly represent the iP4/3GS statement anyway.
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Ah, but therein lies the rub. Why is "less negative" inherently "more fair"? The two are very different things. You have your assessment of how negative the data is, I have mine. None of us is entitled to state objectively whether the way Jobs represented the data is as "negative" as the data itself. This is a pointlessly subjective discussion.
 
dvrk547 said:
So, the iPhone 4 can be "not a number" worse than the 3GS or what?
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The specific not a number thing is +infinity.

Do not confuse with computer NaN (Not a Number), which is totally undefined (no limit).
 
solarein said:
Ah, but therein lies the rub. Why is "less negative" inherently "more fair"? The two are very different things. You have your assessment of how negative the data is, I have mine. None of us is entitled to state objectively whether the way Jobs represented the data is as "negative" as the data itself. This is a pointlessly subjective discussion.
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Yep, but I think it is 1% more dropped call. x to x+1 is (x+1)-x = 1, not (x+1)/x. Otherwise, we will have "undefined" more dropped calls when x = 0.
 
dvrk547 said:
Yep, but I think it is 1% more dropped called. x to x+1 is (x+1)-x = 1, not (x+1)/x. Otherwise, we will have "undefined" more dropped called when x = 0.
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"undefined" is not the best word. You would have arbitrarily worse performance.
 
solarein said:
Ah, but therein lies the rub. Why is "less negative" inherently "more fair"? The two are very different things. You have your assessment of how negative the data is, I have mine. None of us is entitled to state objectively whether the way Jobs represented the data is as "negative" as the data itself. This is a pointlessly subjective discussion.
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It's not so much as what is less negative as being more fair; it's the, even though subjective, negative attention that would be drawn from stating one of the three statements compared to the ACTUAL negativity that it represented. IOW, I think it's safe to say (and you appear to agree) that the most negative way to restate what Jobs has said is by saying what your thread title is. The most positive way to restate was Jobs said is to simply restate what he said.

Then comes in the actual negativity represented. This is very subjective, as we aren't "all consumers", but one, and we can only truly express our own opinions. However, with that said, I would fair to say that the general community of iPhone 4 and potential iPhone 4 consumers do not mind if it, the iP4, drops UP TO one additional call as compared to the 3GS. That last part is important, "compared to the 3GS". The only segment of the market that can make a TRUE assessment of what Jobs said are those who have experienced, know of the experience, or care about the experience of dropped calls compared to the 3GS. I am part of the last two criteria, and can confidently say that potential for one more additional dropped call doesn't bother me. And I think it's safe to say that the majority of rest of the segment that can make the true assessment would agree with me (there will always be some who care A LOT about that potential, but they represent a very small percentage of the "true assessors"). Therefore, the dropped call rates between the iP4 and 3GS, despite the iP4 having more, isn't a positive quality, but nor is it very negative.

Put those two ideals together, you have the most fair representation of negativity in appearance (as determined by you and more or less everyone else in this thread) and actual negativity the would be interpreted by the consumer (as determined by generalities that can safely be applied).

If you disagree with the actual negativity method of determination, only then can you really disagree with me at all. I'd be interested in seeing just why you disagree with it though.

EDIT: Remember, let me know why you would disagree AS A CONSUMER, not as an engineer.
 
Steve Jobs said the iPhone 4 drops less than 1 more call per hundred. For rounding purpose, let's say it drops 1 more call per hundred.

If the 3GS dropped 1 per 100, the iPhone 4 would drop 2 per 100. A 100% increase.
If the 3GS dropped 98 per 100, the iPhone 4 99 per 100: a 1.02% increase.

I agree these extreme percentages are meaningless from a practical user standpoint, in both cases 1 more call is a negligible difference to have any real impact and cause any actual inconvenience.

The bottom line however is that it drops MORE, and Apple ADMITTED it. In disclosing this data, Apple acknowledged the iPhone 4 is not an improvement over the 3GS in terms of dropped calls rate.

It does not matter how much more as long as it's more.

Do I believe its other features and improvements far outweigh this particular drawback? Absolutely? Do I wish Apple would improve this in the near future? Absolutely too.
 
Yinmay said:
Steve Jobs said the iPhone 4 drops less than 1 more call per hundred. For rounding purpose, let's say it drops 1 call per hundred.

If the 3GS dropped 1 per 100, the iPhone 4 would drop 2 per 100. A 100% increase.
If the 3GS dropped 98 per 100, the iPhone 4 99 per 100: a 1.02% increase.
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For me, I think it's 1% increase in both cases. I think we should use linear difference here.
 
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