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No, I said it should be close to a processing fee for exactly that: running the App Store. Not gouging because they can and you’ll accept it

Nobody seems to be able to agree what an acceptable fee for running the App Store seems to be though. Should the costs of the software and servers simply be folded into the cost of developing iOS and subsidised by hardware profits? What about the people employed to vet the apps?

How profitable can the App Store be allowed to be so that it’s not considered “gouging”?
 
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What did I shift?
If terms aren't defined, they will be used differently depending on the point someone is trying to make.

For example: Lightning doesn't compete with USB-C because you think Lightning sucks (I don't happen to think that, but the definition of "compete" now varies with the person speaking). Apple must allow competing app stores on its platform even if I think those other stores suck, because competition apparently means something different in that context.
 
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Nobody seems to be able to agree what an acceptable fee for running the App Store seems to be though. Should the costs of the software and servers simply be folded into the cost of developing iOS and subsidised by hardware profits? What about the people employed to vet the apps?

How profitable can the App Store be allowed to be so that it’s not considered “gouging”?

Well maybe if we had more voices in the room besides the profit seeking companies themselves we could figure that out.

I’m pretty sure if society actually was involved in this stuff it wouldn’t accept 30% nor 27%. I know I wouldn’t.
 
Well maybe if we had more voices in the room besides the profit seeking companies themselves we could figure that out.

I’m pretty sure if society actually was involved in this stuff it wouldn’t accept 30% nor 27%. I know I wouldn’t.

"Society"? How do you imagine this should be done exactly?

How do you imagine it is done, exactly?
 
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It does not. It reduced competition from two business models to one by restricting what can legally be made and sold.

It increases competition in app buying/selling/access for the mobile OS market by allowing iPhone users to sideload and/or use alternative app stores and developers to market their iOS apps in places besides just the App Store.



If this is what they wanted, they could have chosen such an ecosystem. What this is saying is "we let you make a choice and you didn't make the one we think is best for you, so we're taking that choice away"

By Apple restricting sideloading and alternative app stores on a major mobile OS, choices were being limited in the mobile OS market for users and developers. Now, iPhones users will be able to buy/aquire apps outside the App Store and/or in the App Store. Now, developers will be able to market their iOS apps outside the App Store and/or in the App Store. Choices were added, and the choice of not sideloading or using alternative app stores is still there as well.



Except we now have less choice in both cases, so...

There are more choices in app buying/selling/access with sideloading and alternative app stores being allowed on a major mobile OS (iOS) and, as I previously stated, the other (USB-C) was about standardization.
 
Now you're dipping into my area of real expertise ;)

That there are "defintions" of certain actions made by certain philosophers and legal scholars does not imbue them with any force other than persuasion. They are not "right" in any objective sense (until you put an Army of laws, courts, police and prisons behind them).

For example, I'd reverse the labeling of the aforementioned rights, making negative positive and positive negative.

In your use of the terms above, you've labeled the idea that I should refrain from interfering with you a "negative" right. I think that's a silly notion...the idea that I have a right to my life, in your usage, is a "negative" right. Whereas you'd label as "positive" my right to force you to provide me with food so that I can live.

The ideas you're mentioning most recently originated (not wholly) with Karel Vasak. He liked to invoke the ideas of the French Eligthenment, namely, summarized by an earlier french philosopher, Frederik Bastiat, in this quote: "Your doctrine is only the half of my program; you have stopped at liberty; I go on to fraternity."

Ironically, I'm currently writing a book that argues that it was the Enlightenment, regardless of its romantic appeal to fraternity, that accelerated humanity head-long into radical individualism.

I'm actually a strong proponent of what you call positive rights...but only to the level of human scale fraternty. The level at which people are not governed by laws, but by love. By human scale, I mean Tribe; the natural size of human sociality (see Robin Dunbar and The Dunbar Number). But, that's for another day...

The point is that everyone here who is invoking "Rights" stand on shaky ground. As you say, there's no compatibility between US Law and EU Law. Both are subjective overlays on their respective communities, trying to organize life in communities well beyond human scale. To that end, I think the entire notion of "Rights" lies on a very shaky ground. I'd rather term what we call Rights as agreements. ;)

...and I'd prefer Apple left the EU altogether.

Well to be fair it’s more The U.S. culture tends to view freedom as an individual and negative concept, meaning that freedom is the absence of interference or coercion from others, especially from the government.

I hope that by writing this text, I can help bridge the gap and foster a better understanding and dialogue between the USA and the EU. I hope that I can explain the EU perspective in a clear and authoritative way, and that I can persuade the American audience that the EU regulations are not backward, but rather based on a different and valid conception of freedom. I hope that I can demonstrate that the EU regulations are not arbitrary or oppressive, but rather consistent and reasonable, and that they serve the common good and the rights of others.

Freedom is a fundamental and universal value that shapes our cultures and societies. However, freedom is not a simple or singular concept, but rather a complex and multifaceted one, that can be understood and expressed in different ways. In this text, I will examine how the USA and the EU have different conceptions of freedom, which are rooted in their historical and social contexts, and how these conceptions influence their legal philosophies and regulations.

The USA conceives freedom as an individual and negative concept, meaning that freedom is the absence of interference or coercion from others, especially from the government. This conception of freedom derives from the idea of natural rights, which are inherent and inalienable rights that belong to every human being by virtue of their existence. The USA values self-reliance, autonomy, and competition, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to limit the role of the state and to promote the free market. The USA adopts a more market-oriented and consumer-centric approach to law and regulation, and focuses on the effects of market conduct on consumer welfare and efficiency.

The USA follows the common law system, which is based on judicial precedent and gradual development through court decisions. The common law system allows for flexibility and adaptation, and gives judges the authority to interpret and apply the law in a manner that suits the particular circumstances of each case. The common law system is a bottom-up approach, as courts can make laws and create legal principles through their judgments.

The EU conceives freedom as a collective and positive concept, meaning that freedom is the ability and opportunity to participate and contribute to the society, as well as to enjoy the benefits of the social and economic system. This conception of freedom derives from the idea of human dignity, which is the inherent and inviolable worth of every human being, regardless of their status or condition. The EU values cooperation, solidarity, and diversity, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to enhance the role of the state and to regulate the market. The EU adopts a more interventionist and integrationist approach to law and regulation, and focuses on the protection of market structure and the preservation of economic freedom for all market participants.

The EU follows the civil law system, which is derived from the legal system of ancient Rome and emphasises codification and a structured framework. The civil law system provides a systematic and organised approach to legal matters, and relies on comprehensive legal codes and the works of jurists. The civil law system is a top-down approach, as only the Court of Justice and the Commission can make laws and set out legal provisions.

These different conceptions of freedom reflect different ways of understanding the human condition and the social order. They also imply different answers to the questions of what is the purpose of law and regulation, and what is the role of the individual and the community in the legal and regulatory process. For example:

  • The USA views freedom as a right and a privilege, while the EU views freedom as a right and a duty. This means that the USA tends to emphasize the protection of individual rights and liberties, while the EU tends to emphasize the promotion of social responsibilities and obligations. This also means that the USA tends to ask what the law and regulation can do for the individual, while the EU tends to ask what the individual can do for the law and regulation. This difference can be seen in the way the USA and the EU approach the issue of data protection, which is a key aspect of the digital economy and society. The USA has a more laissez-faire and sectoral approach to data protection, and relies on the self-regulation of the market actors and the consent of the consumers. The USA considers data protection as a matter of consumer choice and preference, and as a trade-off between privacy and innovation. The EU has a more proactive and comprehensive approach to data protection, and imposes strict rules and standards on the market actors and the rights of the consumers. The EU considers data protection as a matter of human dignity and value, and as a safeguard against the abuse and exploitation of personal data.
  • The USA views freedom as a passive and isolated concept, while the EU views freedom as an active and participatory concept. This means that the USA tends to favor a laissez-faire and minimalist approach to regulation, while the EU tends to favor a proactive and comprehensive approach to regulation. This also means that the USA tends to see the law and regulation as a necessary evil, while the EU tends to see the law and regulation as a common good. This difference can be seen in the way the USA and the EU approach the issue of climate change, which is a major challenge and opportunity for the global community. The USA has a more reactive and problem-solving approach to climate change, and relies on the voluntary commitments and actions of the states and the market actors. The USA considers climate change as a matter of cost and benefit, and as a trade-off between environment and economy. The EU has a more preventive and precautionary approach to climate change, and imposes binding targets and measures on the states and the market actors. The EU considers climate change as a matter of principle and responsibility, and as a balance between environment and economy.
  • The USA views freedom as a static and isolated concept, while the EU views freedom as a dynamic and interdependent concept. This means that the USA tends to resist change and innovation in the legal and regulatory framework, while the EU tends to embrace change and innovation in the legal and regulatory framework. This also means that the USA tends to see the law and regulation as a fixed and stable system, while the EU tends to see the law and regulation as a evolving and adaptive system. This difference can be seen in the way the USA and the EU approach the issue of digital taxation, which is a new and complex issue for the global economy and society. The USA has a more conservative and traditional approach to digital taxation, and relies on the existing rules and norms of the international tax system. The USA considers digital taxation as a matter of sovereignty and fairness, and as a threat to the competitiveness and innovation of the digital economy. The EU has a more progressive and modern approach to digital taxation, and proposes new rules and norms for the international tax system. The EU considers digital taxation as a matter of solidarity and justice, and as an opportunity to foster the growth and innovation of the digital economy.
  • The USA views freedom as an individual and absolute concept, while the EU views freedom as a collective and relative concept. This means that the USA tends to prioritize personal freedom and choice over the common good and the rights of others, while the EU tends to balance the interests of the individual and the community, and to seek to prevent and correct any abuses or distortions of power that may harm the market or the society. This also means that the USA tends to see the law and regulation as a matter of preference and opinion, while the EU tends to see the law and regulation as a matter of principle and value. This difference can be seen in the way the USA and the EU approach the issue of hate speech, which is a controversial and sensitive issue for the freedom of expression and the respect for human dignity. The USA has a more liberal and tolerant approach to hate speech, and relies on the First Amendment and the self-regulation of the market actors and the civil society. The USA considers hate speech as a matter of free speech and diversity, and as a trade-off between liberty and security. The EU has a more restrictive and vigilant approach to hate speech, and imposes legal sanctions and obligations on the market actors and the civil society. The EU considers hate speech as a matter of hate crime and discrimination, and as a balance between liberty and security.



As a European, I have a different perspective on freedom than most Americans. However, I respect the American culture and its achievements. I acknowledge that both the USA and the EU cultures have the same tendency towards freedom, but different interpretations of what that freedom means and different ways to work towards it.

I think that this is an important point to acknowledge and respect, and that it can help us to understand each other better. I think that freedom is a complex and multifaceted concept, and that there is no one right or wrong way to define or achieve it. I think that freedom is a value that we all share, and that we can learn from each other's experiences and perspectives.

And that these differences often lead to misunderstandings and disagreements between Americans and Europeans, especially when it comes to the intent and goals of the EU regulations. I think that many Americans perceive the EU regulations as restrictive, intrusive, and unnecessary, and that they fail to appreciate the benefits and advantages of the EU approach from a different perspective. I think that many Americans do not understand the EU perspective, and that they apply their own cultural lens and expectations to the EU context that tends to breakdown.

I hope that I can illustrate this point by comparing the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, which contains 54 protected rights, and the anti-competitive laws of the EU, which aim to ensure fair and open competition in the market, with the corresponding documents and policies of the USA.

I hope that by doing so, I can shed some light on the underlying cultural assumptions and values that inform our legal and regulatory frameworks, and that I can challenge the American audience to consider and appreciate the EU perspective.

To conclude, I would like to share with you a quote from Ulrich Beck, a German sociologist and public intellectual from his book “Cosmopolitan Vision” that was published in 2006.
I quote:
"The United States and the European Union are the two most influential models of modernity in the world, but they have different visions of what it means to be modern. The United States is driven by a spirit of innovation, optimism, and pragmatism, and seeks to create a new and better world through science, technology, and entrepreneurship. The European Union is inspired by a spirit of tradition, pessimism, and idealism, and seeks to preserve and improve the old and existing world through culture, history, and philosophy." -,"
The quote captures the essence of the contrast between the American and European values, attitudes, and goals in terms of innovation, pragmatism, culture, history, and philosophy. And that EU and U.S. different visions of what it means to be modern and responsibilities in the global society and the incompatibility of their respective values. Thank you for reading my text, and I hope that you found it informative and interesting. 😊


Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU containing 54 protected rights

And the legislative history of anti competitive laws European competition law today derives mostly from articles 101 to 109 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU)
 
It increases competition in app buying/selling/access for the mobile OS market by allowing iPhone users to sideload and/or use alternative app stores and developers to market their iOS apps in places other than the App Store.
That already existed. If you wanted to sell through other app stores you could. If you wanted to buy from other app stores you could. There are a lot of other app stores. If that was important to you as a user or a developer, it existed. No real competition was added.

There was only one walled garden. Now there are zero walled gardens. Competition was lost.

By Apple restricting sideloading and alternative app stores on a major mobile OS, choices were being limited in the mobile OS market for users and developers.
Nope, those choices existed in the mobile OS market. This is obvious.

Now, iPhones users will be able to buy/aquire apps outside the App Store and/or in the App Store. Now, developers will be able to market their iOS apps outside the App Store and/or in the App Store. Choices were added, and the choice of not sideloading or using alternative app stores is still there as well.
Why don't we give all customers a tracheotomy and make the argument that now they can choose-- they can use the new hole in their throat to breathe, or they can cover it an breath through their mouth or nose as they always did?

There are more choices in app buying/selling/access with sideloading and alternative app stores being allowed on a major mobile OS (iOS) and, as I previously stated, the other (USB-C) was about standardization.
iOS standardized on the AppStore. It was really nice...

Let's standardize AppStores and have competition in charge connectors instead. That way people (and for some reason it's always the same people, the minority group) aren't forced to make changes they don't want to.
 
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Well maybe if we had more voices in the room besides the profit seeking companies themselves we could figure that out.

I’m pretty sure if society actually was involved in this stuff it wouldn’t accept 30% nor 27%. I know I wouldn’t.

I don’t think society in general particularly cares about a 30% tax they will never see (not least because there is evidence to prove that app prices will actually fall if this cut was removed).
 
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The sentence "represent the latest scientific and technological process" refers to a process that wasn't brought about by legislation, but by investment. By trying to lock "the latest scientific and technological progress" into a "standard" forced by law is the opposite of how that very progress was achieved.

But, I suppose you're right. It won't stop the development of better standards, it may just keep the EU locked into such standards as the world moves on. One thing is likely certain; if a new and better standard IS developed, it most likely won't be developed in the EU.
You understand that IEC is used by 190~+ countries and The standard is set by the international consortium that is unrelated to EU or any other government. Exactly the Same as with ANSI that is based in the U.S.

And if the standard is developed in EU or not is kind of irrelevant as long as it’s the superior product…
The USB-IF submitted the specifications to the IEC voluntarily before 2015 (International Electrotechnical Commission), the USB-IF aimed to support the global adoption of a single-cable solution for data and power delivery.

There exists minor differences in the approach to defining certain terms by both standards. This fact can be easily acknowledged by looking at the definitions of short circuit current and transient recovery voltages from the lens of both standards

ANSI is a US member of ISO as well as a US member of the IEC via ANSI’s US National Committee….
IMG_2316.jpeg
 
People keep comparing this to MacOS but don't seem to be smart enough to realize the data on your phone is significantly more sensitive than the data on your MacBook. Health, Payment, Accounts, contacts, etc. Most of this data I believe is stored on device as part of Apple's "Privacy" efforts. You know all those times Craig or Tim said "And it all stays on device so we can't see a thing!". That's what is at stake basically.

Lets not forget the whole reason this issue keeps coming up over and over again is due to the usual: Money

These massive corps don't want to pay Apple's tax because it's in the millions and sometimes billions.

It's not about freedom. It is literally a money play. I say that as both a Software Developer and happy Apple user.

And for people who will inevitably say "You don't have to use side loading if you don't want to!"...I find it hard to believe companies won't make whatever the third party App Store version of their iOS/iPadOS app cheaper than on the official App Store. It is quite literally inevitable since it gives them leeway to not be as scrutinized in Apple's privacy efforts 🙂

This is an absolutely hilarious argument to try to make. People absolutely do have sensitive info on their Mac machines - unless none of them pay taxes, do work or have any personal/professional documents on them. I mean, the stereotype is they are all lazy, are on benefits, smoke weed and listen to the Beatles and relax with their Macs after all, right?

Also, personally, as a developer: I want the freedom to choose how to package and ship my app - and Apple is the only company actively making it harder for me to do so. I don't care about their PR statements involving the "economic contributions" the App Store has made - it's a stupid argument cause on iOS what choice do you even have besides the App Store?

That statement was written purely to appease shareholders, and people sympathetic to the Orwellian-style late-stage capitalism we currently exist under, where a handful of companies dictate how we conduct ourselves using their devices and services.

I sincerely hope Google gets their act together, realizes their current strategy of monetizing user data just isn't suitable anymore, and all-ins on Android and the hardware ecosystem, so that way Apple may go the way of their predecessor: Blackberry.
 
You understand that IEC is used by 190~+ countries and The standard is set by the international consortium that is unrelated to EU or any other government. Exactly the Same as with ANSI that is based in the U.S.

And if the standard is developed in EU or not is kind of irrelevant as long as it’s the superior product…

Hmmm...

Article 42​
Right of access to documents​
Any citizen of the Union, and any natural or legal person residing or having its registered office in a Member State, has a right of access to documents of the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union, whatever their medium.​


Maybe Article 42 should be rewritten to say "has a right of access to documents in exchange for 405 Swiss Francs".
 
It certainly doesn't matter to the point I was making.
what point are you making then if the AppStore have 7 obligations but play store have 6?
Hah! I, like anyone that thinks about this for more than two seconds, would expect that if Google Play expanded to iOS, they would sell iOS apps on iOS. How is this a serious question!?!!?
So… what point would there be to expanding to iOS if the google play store have zero content that runs?
What I still believe will happen is that Apple will attempt to bill developers for 27% of revenue. I can’t say for certain whether Apple will get away with this, but I am fairly certain they will try.

The idea is to still disincentivise developers from venturing beyond the App Store, since they actually end up pay more this way, not to mention the added burden of reporting and verifying their sales figures to Apple.
Well there zero chance to that. The obligations say they must provide the ability to conclude contracts outside their Core platform service for free. So Apple can’t legally disincentivise developers from venturing beyond the App Stor.
They maybe have a chance to recoup costs. But I think they would have a very hard time justifying a 27% fee.
It's not really a precedent. It's Apple trying to outsmart a smalish European competition watchdog with little leverage over Apple. At the time I though, what a stupid move by Apple. The DMA was already in the works and I'm sure the EU bureaucrats took note of it.

Oh they did, at the time the commission gave the government explicit directives over what they were allowed to rule on as they had an active investigation in to Apple. And EU policy doesn’t allow a national court to rule on cases that can be influenced after the probe is concluded.
 
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You understand that IEC is used by 190~+ countries and The standard is set by the international consortium that is unrelated to EU or any other government. Exactly the Same as with ANSI that is based in the U.S.

And if the standard is developed in EU or not is kind of irrelevant as long as it’s the superior product…
What's the process for immigrating to the EU like (US -> EU) - cause man, I would love to be surrounded by like-minded people at this point. The US is so broken.
 
You still seem to be confusing objectively "competing", differentiating by technology for a market advantage, with your subjective opinion of what is better and therefore subjectively competitive.

You'll note that @Timo_Existencia didn't mention Lightning at all, just the fact that nothing is now allowed to compete with USB-C.

Not really, you seem to want to split hairs all day long.
 
Hmmm...

Article 42​
Right of access to documents​
Any citizen of the Union, and any natural or legal person residing or having its registered office in a Member State, has a right of access to documents of the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union, whatever their medium.​


Maybe Article 42 should be rewritten to say "has a right of access to documents in exchange for 405 Swiss Francs".
… IEC isn’t an institution of EU, but private. And fun fact it was founded in 1906…87 years before EU ….
And it’s in Switzerland, a country that isn’t a member of EU
 
what point are you making then if the AppStore have 7 obligations but play store have 6?
That specific regulations in the DMA will benefit Google. But you would know that if you could be bothered to follow along.

So… what point would there be to expanding to iOS if the google play store have zero content that runs?
Again, I just answered this clear as day in the quote that you posted in your response. This isn’t rocket science.
 
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… IEC isn’t an institution of EU, but private. And fun fact it was founded in 1906…87 years before EU ….
And it’s in Switzerland, a country that isn’t a member of EU

The common charger regulations reference a document outside the EU rules then. That's a convenient loophole. Seems like you can now create laws that reference Swiss documents to hide the details from the citizenry...
 
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That specific regulations in the DMA will benefit Google. But you would know that if you could be bothered to follow along.


Again, I just answered this clear as day in the quote that you posted in your response. This isn’t rocket science.
I’m trying to understand what the benefits are.

And I must be missing something. Because no matter how I slice and dice it there’s no point or benefits to google.

If the Google play store was to open up on iPhone tomorrow it would have zero content to sell. 0% of the current apps would run, and if they would sell android apps you wouldn’t be able to run them anyway and still own a separate phone running android.

It seems as pointless as trying to run my iPhone apps on my PC, or to connect my Xbox controller to a rock and play games
 
I’m trying to understand what the benefits are.

And I must be missing something. Because no matter how I slice and dice it there’s no point or benefits to google.

If the Google play store was to open up on iPhone tomorrow it would have zero content to sell. 0% of the current apps would run, and if they would sell android apps you wouldn’t be able to run them anyway and still own a separate phone running android.

It seems as pointless as trying to run my iPhone apps on my PC, or to connect my Xbox controller to a rock and play games
You’re only missing something because you don’t bother to read the posts that you respond to. How hard is it to understand that if Google Play were to open on iOS, then it would sell iOS apps.
 
I hope that by writing this text, I can help bridge the gap and foster a better understanding and dialogue between the USA and the EU.
That's an odd way to refer to a forum post... Is this quoted from somewhere else that constitutes an actual text? If so a link would help view it in context...

It'll take too long to address that whole piece, but a few things stand out to me:

The USA values self-reliance, autonomy, and competition, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to limit the role of the state and to promote the free market.
That's not the purpose of the free market. The free market is seen as the most reliable measure of the true desires and goals of the society-- the free market forces people to make tradeoffs and therefore forces people to expose their true priorities. By allocating limited resources among those priorities, peoples preferences are made known and by voting using actual resources (money) those supplier who best align with societies priorities are allocated more resources with which to grow their business.

It's notable that how people spend their money is not always in alignment with how they answer surveys. Social scientists learned that if they want people to expose what they truly want, not just what they want you to think they want, then the social science experiment should incorporate these same tradeoffs.

The role of the state in the market should be limited to overseeing things that aren't well suited to a market approach, addressing externalities that aren't accounted for in the transactions of the market, and ensuring there aren't undue distortions in the market. So the success of iOS is viewed as an indication that people prefer the package of compromises that come with iOS over the package of compromises that come with other systems. As has been found in the Epic case, for example, Apple doesn't have sufficient market power, or isn't exercising that power, to prevent people from choosing another platform.


The EU conceives freedom as a collective and positive concept, meaning that freedom is the ability and opportunity to participate and contribute to the society, as well as to enjoy the benefits of the social and economic system. This conception of freedom derives from the idea of human dignity, which is the inherent and inviolable worth of every human being, regardless of their status or condition. The EU values cooperation, solidarity, and diversity, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to enhance the role of the state and to regulate the market. The EU adopts a more interventionist and integrationist approach to law and regulation, and focuses on the protection of market structure and the preservation of economic freedom for all market participants.

In this case, it does not appear to follow that logic. The market structure is not maintained, it is pared down to a narrow myopic view of how commerce should operate. It also doesn't seem to support the dignity and diversity of the people who prefer a different model to mobile commerce alongside the majority model.


Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU containing 54 protected rights

I don't see anything in this document that lends itself to a positive vs. negative interpretation. I see a list of articles describing the rights of individuals.
 
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That's a convenient loophole. Seems like you can now create laws that reference Swiss documents to hide the details from the citizenry...
It would be the same thing if they referenced directly to USB-IF. It’s still private companies. They can’t really give away IP

Standards legislated by EU is available in the legal texteur-lex.europa.eu
You can just search the legislation or document on Eur-lex
Document nr (or just klick it): 02014L0053-20231001
 
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It would be the same thing if they referenced directly to USB-IF. It’s still private companies. They can’t really give away IP

Standards legislated by EU is available in the legal textView attachment 2313386eur-lex.europa.eu
You can just search the legislation or document on Eur-lex
Document nr (or just klick it): 02014L0053-20231001
So the citizens don't have the rights to the documents they're governed by. That's all I'm saying. It sounds nice, but it's not actually upheld. If the EU view of regulation is as interventionist and integrationist as you say, surely they have power of bring such documents into the public domain. If they choose not to, they should regulate by another means or rewrite Article 42.
 
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That's an odd way to refer to a forum post... Is this quoted from somewhere else that constitutes an actual text? If so a link would help view it in context...
Well I wrote it over a few hours
It'll take too long to address that whole piece, but a few things stand out to me:


That's not the purpose of the free market. The free market is seen as the most reliable measure of the true desires and goals of the society-- the free market forces people to make tradeoffs and therefore forces people to expose their true priorities. By allocating limited resources among those priorities, peoples preferences are made known and by voting using actual resources (money) those supplier who best align with societies priorities are allocated more resources with which to grow their business.

It's notable that how people spend their money is not always in alignment with how they answer surveys. Social scientists learned that if they want people to expose what they truly want, not just what they want you to think they want, then the social science experiment should incorporate these same tradeoffs.

The role of the state in the market should be limited to overseeing things that aren't well suited to a market approach, addressing externalities that aren't accounted for in the transactions of the market, and ensuring there aren't undue distortions in the market. So the success of iOS is viewed as an indication that people prefer the package of compromises that come with iOS over the package of compromises that come with other systems. As has been found in the Epic case, for example, Apple doesn't have sufficient market power, or isn't exercising that power, to prevent people from choosing another platform.
Sure that can be the role of the government and the function of the free market, but that is why I’m trying to emphasise the distinction. Hence why as you emphasis on the consumer, and this isn’t what EU would even consider as relevant

As they view iOS and android as two completely separate and unrelated markets, and that people choose phones, not operating systems. That Samsung or Google etc as phone manufacturers share the same market as iPhone. And that iOS and android are distinct them as you can’t choose to buy iOS, but you can chose to buy different android forks that are cross compatible or even install a different android system.

And then lower that AppStore and play store are aren’t competing or part of the same market as they services provided aren’t compatible or interchangeable.

If a developer want to reach iPhone users they need to go through the AppStore. But if a developer want to meet a Samsung customer they can go through the play store, galaxy store, Amazon AppStore etc
In this case, it does not appear to follow that logic. The market structure is not maintained, it is pared down to a narrow myopic view of how commerce should operate. It also doesn't seem to support the dignity and diversity of the people who prefer a different model to mobile commerce alongside the majority model.
Well you are still seeing it as only the consumer as more important, when there many more stacks holders that are also important
I don't see anything in this document that lends itself to a positive vs. negative interpretation. I see a list of articles describing the rights of individuals.
Almost every right listed is a positive right.
Example right to healthcare, education etc is positive as it requires someone have the duty/ obligation to provide it for you.

While freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of movement are negative rights as they requires no action from anyone for you to exercise it.

And I was quite sure I linked to a collection on EU competition law?
 
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So the citizens don't have the rights to the documents they're governed by. That's all I'm saying. It sounds nice, but it's not actually upheld. If the EU view of regulation is as interventionist and integrationist as you say, surely they have power of bring such documents into the public domain. If they choose not to, they should regulate by another means or rewrite Article 42.
EU don’t have the legal ability to violate the copyrighted IP. Government institutions have to follow the exact same laws as private companies when it comes to copyright and antitrust law.

Only the regulations and standards they write can they do that. And EU doesn’t write these things unless they don’t exist on the private market.
 
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