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You are correct the contracts are secret and these estimates are just that. If a part cost $4 to manufacture and the market wholesale price is $6, these companies will make a guess that apple buys it for $5 as they have massive purchasing power. You are correct that the $5 number is a guess but it is a educated guess by people that do this stuff all day. A BS number would be if the company writes down that apple pays $8 for a part which people can buy for $6 for they pay $3 for a part that has a cost of $4 to make.

It's is more complicated than the above, but I think I would be wasting my time trying to explain it to you.
It's a LOT more complicated, considering the iPhone's BOM contains probably about 90-95% CUSTOM parts, the costs of which simply CANNOT BE KNOWN.

How much does Apple pay for an Apple APL1W72 A11 Bionic SoC?

How much for the Apple 338S00341-B1 power management IC?

How much for the Apple 338S00248 audio codec?

How much for the Apple 338S00306 power management IC?

How much for the Apple/Murata USI 170821 339S00397 WiFi / Bluetooth module?

How much for the Apple/Cirrus Logic 338S00296 audio amplifier?

How much for the mystery STMicro IC on the OLED Display, 10 THADT733 X-139U?

How much for a zillion CUSTOM flex-strips, ribbon cables, and flexPCBs?

How much for the hideously high-density main logic PCB itself?

How much for the custom-formed-and-punched Stainless Steel case?

How much for the custom Li-On cells?


Lots of questions, very few hard answers.

Look at that picture of the iPhone X layed-out. How many of those components you see are off-the-shelf?

Answer: Practically NONE. Well, that's EXACTLY how much knowledge ANYONE outside of Apple has as to the Costs of those items!

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+X+Teardown/98975
 
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I prefer to think companies are driven by supply & demand.

Greed in this context I interpret as being the same as maximising the profit.

Yeah I got a Mac Pro on benefits ...... are you working?
[doublepost=1510044324][/doublepost]

Yes I do and my company is maximising its profit as well so I (and others in the company) can increase our salaries even more (I'm sure you would not mind your company, if you are working, doing the same). :)
 
TSMC make the chips and it is not that hard to calculate the per chip cost. A silicone wafer has a certain cost and can only get a fixed amount of chips printed on it, it's simple math after that. There are more variables for items like this, but that will not prevent you from getting a fairly accurate number. The same goes with displays, even though the part is custom, they price will be similar to other displays of the same quality and size.
Wrong!

You haven't factored in YIELD, which can be strikingly low on early-runs and new technology.

And the A11 and TSMC has a combination of BOTH of those factors.

Without knowing the Yield on a large-die, custom IC, any "calculation" is simply a SWAG.

And anyone calling it a SILICONE wafer is unlikely to know, anyway...
 
Ok, how about THIS for a reason:

A VERY large portion of the components in the iPhone X are CUSTOM. Therefore, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE TO LOOK for a "Cost".

So, if 85% of the chips and other components in the iPhone X are Exclusively Apple's, then you simply have NO IDEA what the COSTS are for 85% of the BOM.

How's THAT for a reason?


Custom chips are harder to estimate, but doable. If TMSC sell wafers for X dollars and we can roughly find out how much each chip costs because we know the size of the chips. These companies estimate how much of a volume discount a customer Apple gets per wafer and with the chips size and estimate the rough cost of a chip.


http://appleinsider.com/articles/16...ts-record-earnings-casts-doubt-on-peak-iphone
According to a report by Focus Taiwan, TSMC reported NT$306.57 billion ($9.15 billion US) in net profit for 2015, a 16.2 percent annual increase and a record high for the firm. Its consolidated sales rose 10.6 percent to NT$843.497 billion ($25.2 billion US), also a new record. About $3.7 billion of TSMC's revenue comes from Apple.

So if TMSC made 3.7 billion from Apple, and they made X amount of chips for Apple, they can get a rough cost. It's not rocket science.


Do you have another gotcha?
[doublepost=1510092419][/doublepost]
Wrong!

You haven't factored in YIELD, which can be strikingly low on early-runs and new technology.

And the A11 and TSMC has a combination of BOTH of those factors.

Without knowing the Yield on a large-die, custom IC, any "calculation" is simply a SWAG.


Nope you are wrong
 
So if TMSC made 3.7 billion from Apple, and they made X amount of chips for Apple, they can get a rough cost. It's not rocket science.
Like Apple is their ONLY customer???

Gimme a break!

It may not be "rocket science"; but it IS a LOT more complicated than your methodology suggests!
[doublepost=1510092667][/doublepost]
Nope you are wrong
Citation, please!
 
And when Sony was charging $600 for a PS3 when it cost $800 to manufacture, they got crucified for it. When LG coated the G5, reviewers said it felt cheap. When LG does it for Pixel 2 XL, they say it feels premium.

I thought the display cost more? So Apple really is Thurston and Lovey Howell. Greedy and lazy. Maintain those profits. X could have easily been priced at $800.

Keep justifying the X price. Another one will look like it next year and will be better, faster, and cheaper once the manufacturing costs go down.
 
Why punish the customer for your design choices ?
Because it was PERCEIVED that the CUSTOMER wanted WIRELESS CHARGING.

So, Apple had only a few options for the "class" of backside material:

1. Glass

2. Plastic

3. Wood

#1 is the most scratch-resistant, but the most brittle.

#2 Durable to breaking; but scratches WAY too easily. Period. They would have been made a laughingstock. "Scratchgate", I can hear it now...

#3 isn't a seriously-viable choice, anymore than marble

ANYTHING else that wasn't completely exotic (and thus completely too expensive) would not have allowed Qi Charging to work.

So, in the end, it WAS the CUSTOMERS (or the perception of their wants) that caused Apple to make the new iPhones with a Glass back.

So, it isn't "punishment"; but rather an engineering/marketing trade-off.

By the way, what is the back of a Galaxy Note 8? Oh, wait...

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...down-finds-lots-of-glue-removable-components/

...and what are the Repair Costs? Hmmm, these look MIGHTY FAMILIAR...

http://www.deteched.com/2017/09/02/...-consider-samsung-premium-care-insurance/amp/
[doublepost=1510093732][/doublepost]
Because Apple wants to make as much money as possible, that is their duty to their shareholders. If Apple is being unfair, the market will reflect that and punish Apple.

If the RAM goes bad in a Mac Mini, the computer is more or less garbage as the entire logic board must be replaced. Do you really think Apples cares about their bad design choices?
Statistically speaking, if the RAM (or any other silicon-based non-mechanical component) is going to "go bad", it will do so WELL within the 1 year warranty period (3 years with AppleCare, IIRC). So, it would be HIGHLY unlikely that a Mac mini owner would have to suffer a logic-board replacement.
 
Like Apple is their ONLY customer???

Gimme a break!

It may not be "rocket science"; but it IS a LOT more complicated than your methodology suggests!
[doublepost=1510092667][/doublepost]
Citation, please!
I agree it's much more complicated than my methodology, that is why I give these numbers from professionals credibility. Not saying they are bang on, but close.
[doublepost=1510094274][/doublepost]
tatistically speaking, if the RAM (or any other silicon-based non-mechanical component) is going to "go bad", it will do so WELL within the 1 year warranty period (3 years with AppleCare, IIRC). So, it would be HIGHLY unlikely that a Mac mini owner would have to suffer a logic-board replacement.

Citation, Please.
 
Greed in this context I interpret as being the same as maximising the profit.



Yes I do and my company is maximising its profit as well so I (and others in the company) can increase our salaries even more (I'm sure you would not mind your company, if you are working, doing the same). :)

Missed my sarcasm eh..... oww well.
[doublepost=1510095018][/doublepost]
Because it was PERCEIVED that the CUSTOMER wanted WIRELESS CHARGING.

So, Apple had only a few options for the "class" of backside material:

1. Glass

2. Plastic

3. Wood

#1 is the most scratch-resistant, but the most brittle.

#2 Durable to breaking; but scratches WAY too easily. Period. They would have been made a laughingstock. "Scratchgate", I can hear it now...

#3 isn't a seriously-viable choice, anymore than marble

ANYTHING else that wasn't completely exotic (and thus completely too expensive) would not have allowed Qi Charging to work.

So, in the end, it WAS the CUSTOMERS (or the perception of their wants) that caused Apple to make the new iPhones with a Glass back.

So, it isn't "punishment"; but rather an engineering/marketing trade-off.

By the way, what is the back of a Galaxy Note 8? Oh, wait...

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...down-finds-lots-of-glue-removable-components/

...and what are the Repair Costs? Hmmm, these look MIGHTY FAMILIAR...

http://www.deteched.com/2017/09/02/...-consider-samsung-premium-care-insurance/amp/
[doublepost=1510093732][/doublepost]
Statistically speaking, if the RAM (or any other silicon-based non-mechanical component) is going to "go bad", it will do so WELL within the 1 year warranty period (3 years with AppleCare, IIRC). So, it would be HIGHLY unlikely that a Mac mini owner would have to suffer a logic-board replacement.

Was it the consumer or playing catch up with the S8. I say this cause "wireless" charging is not wireless. Why not do it right? The Apple way? I still think they are just playing catch up now and following the markert instead of leading .
 
Clearly all the other vendors in the smartphone industry work on lower profit margins.
When I see a company clearly milking profit margins I give them a wide berth.
In the 80s/early 90s BMW prices in the UK once all the needed extras were added were excessive. They started including extras etc and lowered prices making them better value and I started buying them. The lower end 5 series were then competitive with the big Fords and they ended up being taken off the market. There are plenty of Apple users who say on this forum that they would pay whatever Apple charged. That is stupidity.

That’s not stupidity. That’s them valuing Apple products higher than you. And I don’t think I’ve read anyone saying they would pay whatever Apple charged. I imagine you’re building a straw man to make yourself feel superior.

Also, the other companies running on lower margins is irrelevant. What matters is that the people who buy iPhones or Notes or S#or HTC U or Motorola Z all get a product that they think is worth what they paid. Anything else is just pointless team-play.
[doublepost=1510095189][/doublepost]
Missed my sarcasm eh..... oww well.
[doublepost=1510095018][/doublepost]

Was it the consumer or playing catch up with the S8. I say this cause "wireless" charging is not wireless. Why not do it right? The Apple way? I still think they are just playing catch up now and following the markert instead of leading .

True wireless charging isn’t working right now in a way that the consumer actually wants.
 
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I agree it's much more complicated than my methodology, that is why I give these numbers from professionals credibility. Not saying they are bang on, but close.
[doublepost=1510094274][/doublepost]



Citation, Please.
Close, as in 25 - 50% "off", sure.

Reliability? TONS of citations. Where do you want to start?

How about these "layman" articles:

http://www.weibull.com/hotwire/issue21/hottopics21.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve


Here's a more "scholarly" paper:

http://woodm.myweb.port.ac.uk/q/reliability.pdf


That enough Citations for ya? I could go on and on. I've got 613,000 citations in my Google Search for:

"infant mortality in electronics follows which kind of distribution"


Ok, so what about the OTHER end of the Bathtub, the end-of-life part of the Reliability Curve, the End-of-Life part, for silicon electronics is quite a ways "out there". Decades, at least. It is HIGHLY unlikely that your Mac mini's RAM will "Wear-Out" before the computer has fallen so far behind the state-of-the-art as to be practically useless in almost all applications.

So, as far as "Replacing burned-out RAM" (or a logic board) at your cost: It is REALLY unlikely.

Now, eventually replacing a "worn-out" SSD is another story. The jury's still out on the REAL-WORLD long-term lifespans of those soldered-in devices. But you said "RAM".

However, in doing a little looking around, I feel MUCH better about even that; to the point where I can see the logic (no pun) in Apple soldering-in SSDs:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7734134?start=0&tstart=0

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/find-how-how-much-longer-your-ssd-will-last/


So, it looks like an SSD is likely to be MUCH longer-lived than a "spinning rust" HDD, and long-enough that it can essentially be considered "just another component".
[doublepost=1510096229][/doublepost]
Was it the consumer or playing catch up with the S8. I say this cause "wireless" charging is not wireless. Why not do it right? The Apple way? I still think they are just playing catch up now and following the markert instead of leading .
They were starting to have "pushback" about "Why doesn't Apple support Wireless Charging?" Has nothing to do directly with "competition". Plus, Apple had already stuck their toe in the Wireless Charging "water" with the Apple Watch, and felt that they had learned enough from that experiment to take it to the next level.

Ok, we'll call it what NOBODY does: "Contactless Charging". Meaning that there are no "electrical contacts" involved.

And believe me, you wouldn't WANT truly Wireless Charging, ala Nikola Tesla!!!
[doublepost=1510096496][/doublepost]
But they are Apples!!!!

Proof Positive!


Apple_first_logo.png

File:Apple_first_logo.png

[doublepost=1510096844][/doublepost]
You are referring to the closed Apple ecosystem now. These are not created for your benefit, they are to keep you in the ecosystem and promote it.

I'll just tackle iMessage , if apple cared about your communication needs, it would be cross platform. They want your to bring your friends / family into the ecosystem so they can take advantage of it.

You can spin that iTunes is a "free" service .... it's not , it's a gateway to a huge revenue spinner , that locks you in . More of a trap, cause when you think about leaving , you realise how much you invested in it.... I own the Apple TV 4K , a poor device really for the money ... though..... I got all that iTunes content ;)
Boy, I'm glad I don't live in YOUR world...
[doublepost=1510097105][/doublepost]
yet they charge you $549 to replace the rear glass on your iPhone X, Apple sucks are producing repairable products now.
I guess then neither is Samsung:

http://www.deteched.com/2017/09/02/...-consider-samsung-premium-care-insurance/amp/
 
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I think it’s fair to say the iPhone X cost some amount of money to make and it sells for another higher amount and lots of people still want to buy it.

Case solved. Thread end reached. Well done everyone. Give yourself a pat on the back and move on.
 
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All phones these days have glass screens. So a glass back is somehow shameful, egregious, and purposely designed to screw customers? It looks good, enables wireless charging, and just matches what's already on the front.
You literally have no idea what Apple is doing on patents.
There is a myriad materials that allow inductive charging and would make for a better, more durable backside. And I have a fairly good overview of materials that Apple holds patents for (self-repairing metals, liquid metals, nanomaterials, synthered materials, earths...) that have thing in common: they never make it to the production phase.
If you don't have anything more to bring to the table than echoing Apple's arguments for the herds, happy hiking.
 

That page doesn't list the replacement cost of screens for Samsung Note 8, just an estimate and doesn't even state the source of the costs.

If I look at the Australian site which Samsung takes me to I see http://www.samsung.com/au/support/screen-replacements/
which lists the screen replacement RRP as $260 but you usually never pay RRP.
If I look at the Australian site for Apple the replacement cost is screen: $418.95 back/other: $818.95
https://support.apple.com/en-au/iphone/repair/screen-damage

So while Samsung are too costly too, they are not as much as Apple

I think its quite pathetic charging these amounts - probably trying to sell more warranties to boost the average selling price for shareholders.
 
There is a myriad materials that allow inductive charging and would make for a better, more durable backside. And I have a fairly good overview of materials that Apple holds patents for (self-repairing metals, liquid metals, nanomaterials, synthered materials, earths...) that have thing in common: they never make it to the production phase.
If you don't have anything more to bring to the table than echoing Apple's arguments for the herds, happy hiking.
220M phones/yr bro. It takes a long time to bring some of the more exotic materials into production and glass today doesn't mean they never will. Gotta be realistic. My point was, all high end smartphones today use a lot of glass. Drop a Note, it's going to break too.
 
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220M phones/yr bro. It takes a long time to bring some of the more exotic materials into production and glass today doesn't mean they never will. Gotta be realistic. My point was, all high end smartphones today use a lot of glass. Drop a Note, it's going to break too.
OMG. Then why would carmakers use it only for screens, not for hoods, doors or bodies (as any 3 year old kid can envision) ?
 
OMG. Then why would carmakers use it only for screens, not for hoods, doors or bodies (as any 3 year old kid can envision) ?
Different game. Apples and oranges. For one, cars are heavily regulated by multiple agencies, particularly in safety.
 
iPhone X costs incorrectly estimated. Hey, guys... did you know that the chemical components in a human being cost an estimated FIVE DOLLARS? Now... how does that MATTER? It doesn't, and neither does the "estimate" of the cost of the parts.

Put another way, take $360 and try to make your own iPhone with it. Good luck.



Apple's new iPhone X costs $357.50 to make, according to estimates sourced from TechInsights and shared today by Reuters. At an estimated $357.50 to produce with a price tag of $999, the iPhone X has a gross margin of 64 percent, higher than the iPhone 8's gross margin of 59 percent.

Several of the components in the iPhone X are more expensive than their iPhone 8 counterparts, according to TechInsights. The 5.8-inch edge-to-edge display, for example, costs an estimated $65.50, compared to $36 for the 4.7-inch display of the iPhone 8.

iphone-x-teardown.jpg

Image via iFixit
The stainless steel chassis of the iPhone X costs an estimated $36, a significant premium over the $21.50 Apple shells out for the iPhone 8.

Following the launch of the iPhone 8, estimates suggested its raw component cost came in at $247.51, with the cost for the iPhone 8 Plus estimated at $288.08. Those estimates were sourced from IHS iMarkit, a research firm, while today's come from TechInsights, a company that does device teardowns and analysis.

Component cost estimates from companies like TechInsights and IHS look only at the price of raw components and do not take into account other iPhone manufacturing expenses like research and development, software creation, advertising, and distribution. While interesting, these estimates are not an accurate measurement of Apple's profit margin for the iPhone X, nor are they an accurate picture of the overall cost of creating the device.

According to Apple CEO Tim Cook, cost breakdowns are generally "much different than the reality." "I've never seen one that is anywhere close to being accurate," he said in 2015.

Article Link: iPhone X Component Costs Estimated at $357.50
 
Different game. Apples and oranges. For one, cars are heavily regulated by multiple agencies, particularly in safety.
... ruling it out for obvious reasons.
And if Apple can't meet 220m/y production numbers (for what it's worth, others can with ceramics, carbons, fibres,...) it should return its patents. By now it has become a patent troll itself.
 
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Put another way, take $360 and try to make your own iPhone with it. Good luck.
By this reasoning, the X might cost 10 or 100 fold of what it does - and a Ferrari a few millions for that matter.
Your customer loyalty might prematurely take you out of business
 
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By this reasoning, the X might cost 10 or 100 fold of what it does - and a Ferrari a few millions for that matter.
Your customer loyalty might prematurely take you out of business

You're comparing apples and oranges, (no pun intended,) in order for there to be any validity to your point, a Ferrari would have to use fuel provided BY Ferrari, and be included in the price for the life of the car, or at least, for a few good years. An iPhone has almost no moving parts, (not counting electronics, and MAYBE the optical image stabilization system,) and almost all of its functionality, (aside from being a paperweight, or a really ineffective doorstop,) comes from software, which must be maintained, background services that must be provided in order for SOME functions to work, (like iCloud,) storage, etc. Then there's security updates requiring constant vigilance against hacking, looking out for vulnerabilities, etc. etc. etc.

Customer loyalty is a good thing up to a point, I'll grant you, though I am (it may surprise you to learn,) NO fan of Apple as a company; I like some of their products, and some of their software, while at the same time, I am pretty critical of their antics as a corporation, even while acknowledging that it's not all their fault--some things one simply can't help, they're a byproduct of the nature of the game, and the system(s) in-place. The fake concern about the environment they tout, how they prominently claim their products are designed in California, as if that mattered, (when most people are more worried about where they're made,) soak their customers for all they're worth, then dodge taxes at every conceivable opportunity, steal other people's ideas, often giving no credit or acknowledgement, pretend they're artists... the list does go on and on, this is just of the top of my head.

That all said, still, the implication that the guesstimate of the cost of the HARDWARE inside an iPhone is that the price-tag of the finished product is exorbitant, which is really pretty unfair, given that more goes into it than the sum of its PHYSICAL parts, the cost of the machines needed to fabricate them and assemble them, etc.

Just to contrast, while they're running stories touting how little the hardware inside the product costs, let me point out that the hardware cost of a downloaded piece of software is zero. SO, why not run a story about how they tore-down a new copy of Microsoft Windows, and found that the cost of the hardware inside a copy of that is $0.00? Because that would be absurd, much like the original story about how little the hardware allegedly costs Apple to obtain.
 
You're comparing apples and oranges, (no pun intended,) in order for there to be any validity to your point, a Ferrari would have to use fuel provided BY Ferrari, and be included in the price for the life of the car, or at least, for a few good years. An iPhone has almost no moving parts, (not counting electronics, and MAYBE the optical image stabilization system,) and almost all of its functionality, (aside from being a paperweight, or a really ineffective doorstop,) comes from software, which must be maintained, background services that must be provided in order for SOME functions to work, (like iCloud,) storage, etc. Then there's security updates requiring constant vigilance against hacking, looking out for vulnerabilities, etc. etc. etc.

Customer loyalty is a good thing up to a point, I'll grant you, though I am (it may surprise you to learn,) NO fan of Apple as a company; I like some of their products, and some of their software, while at the same time, I am pretty critical of their antics as a corporation, even while acknowledging that it's not all their fault--some things one simply can't help, they're a byproduct of the nature of the game, and the system(s) in-place. The fake concern about the environment they tout, how they prominently claim their products are designed in California, as if that mattered, (when most people are more worried about where they're made,) soak their customers for all they're worth, then dodge taxes at every conceivable opportunity, steal other people's ideas, often giving no credit or acknowledgement, pretend they're artists... the list does go on and on, this is just of the top of my head.

That all said, still, the implication that the guesstimate of the cost of the HARDWARE inside an iPhone is that the price-tag of the finished product is exorbitant, which is really pretty unfair, given that more goes into it than the sum of its PHYSICAL parts, the cost of the machines needed to fabricate them and assemble them, etc.

Just to contrast, while they're running stories touting how little the hardware inside the product costs, let me point out that the hardware cost of a downloaded piece of software is zero. SO, why not run a story about how they tore-down a new copy of Microsoft Windows, and found that the cost of the hardware inside a copy of that is $0.00? Because that would be absurd, much like the original story about how little the hardware allegedly costs Apple to obtain.
I share your problems with the Apple economy - especially where we pay an inordinate premium for their lifestyle, dictated by their overwealthy mgt. Especially those huge buildings at premium locations, symbols of supremacy, luxury, prominence, fashion, and the like that seem to matter more than functional innovation (for example: why use glass backsides as they have hundreds of patents for more sophisticated/durable materials - as said earlier)
Why all those design compromises (notch, mediocre battery life etc etc.) while truckloads of money go into Apple Music subsidizing, self (non-)driving cars, headphone companies, radio stations etc... that I never asked for.
Steve's mantra has been severly betrayed: Stay humble, stay hungry etc.
I get ferocious by Cook's selective adoration of Steve.
People get to hate big Silicon Valley Champs for that matter - Apple, FaceBook, Amazon ... allmost all of them (maybe Google as an intellectual exception)
 
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I share your problems with the Apple economy - especially where we pay an inordinate premium for their lifestyle, dictated by their overwealthy mgt. Especially those huge buildings at premium locations, symbols of supremacy, luxury, prominence, fashion, and the like that seem to matter more than functional innovation (for example: why use glass backsides as they have hundreds of patents for more sophisticated/durable materials - as said earlier)
Why all those design compromises (notch, mediocre battery life etc etc.) while truckloads of money go into Apple Music subsidizing, self (non-)driving cars, headphone companies, radio stations etc... that I never asked for.
Steve's mantra has been severly betrayed: Stay humble, stay hungry etc.
I get ferocious by Cook's selective adoration of Steve.
People get to hate big Silicon Valley Champs for that matter - Apple, FaceBook, Amazon ... allmost all of them (maybe Google as an intellectual exception)

Don't even get me started on the "let's put an easily broken glass back on our new super-expensive phone" idea. I'm not sure which is worse, that or the "no headphone jack so they have to buy our easily lost, proprietary, must be charged to use, using something else that must be charged to be used... or our proprietary stupid little dongle" idea...

This is why I say Apple has strayed far from the path of the Avatar...
 
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