Is a Mac Pro overpriced? Real world comparison with Dell

[nanofrog]

...or get a netbook (hack it of course) and build a nice i5 rig for $1500Aus.

Given your situation, you have your answer.

Worst case, screw the netbook. You still have the laptop, and despite old, it's still good for typing notes (if your professors & classmates won't want to strangle you for it), checking email, and browsing. Enough to allow you to save additional funds for a netbook later at any rate.

...Apple users have felt the lack of lubricant while visiting the Apple sales floor to buy their towers.

Nice.

 

[Eidorian]

shows how useful the lower end machines were then. pay an extra ~$1k-$2k and get a machine that lasts much longer!

We're really missing a US$1,499 - 1,699 desktop/mini tower from Apple.

So many Core 2 Quad and Core i5/X34xx systems to pick from for less than an iMac.

 

[nanofrog]

We're really missing a US$1,499 - 1,699 desktop/mini tower from Apple.

So many Core 2 Quad and Core i5/X34xx systems to pick from for less than an iMac.

You can even get into an i7-920/W3520 based system for that or less. Certainly under the higher amount (and include the extras you might want for memory and even graphics). Not sure about RAID. Perhaps if it's software based only on consumer drives.

 

[DoFoT9]

Given your situation, you have your answer.

Worst case, screw the netbook. You still have the laptop, and despite old, it's still good for typing notes (if your professors & classmates won't want to strangle you for it), checking email, and browsing. Enough to allow you to save additional funds for a netbook later at any rate.

hmm i guess i should mention that my current MBP would be going to my dad. he has a 1.2GHz ibook and kinda needs an upgrade. i need the battery life as well as the power, thats why maybe netbook/hack might be worth it. ugh i dont know i have no idea.

We're really missing a US$1,499 - 1,699 desktop/mini tower from Apple.

im with Sun Baked on this one

So many Core 2 Quad and Core i5/X34xx systems to pick from for less than an iMac.

oh yea totally. i paid $500Aus for my hackintosh thats more powerful then my $3kAus imac!!

 

[317342]

You can get the Mac Pro w/ the exact same processor as the Dell.

8-core: Two 2.26GHz, 2.66GHz, or 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon 5500 series processors
http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html



Quad-core Intel® Xeon® 5500 series processors with up to 6.4GT/s (Intel QuickPath Interconnect) and up to 8MB shared cache and Turbo Boost Mode on select processors

All processors are 64-bit, support Intel® DBS (Demand Based Switching) and Intel® VT (Intel® Virtualization Technology).
http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/...refid=workstation-precision-t7500&cs=04&s=bsd

 

[Eidorian]

You can even get into an i7-920/W3520 based system for that or less. Certainly under the higher amount (and include the extras you might want for memory and even graphics). Not sure about RAID. Perhaps if it's software based only on consumer drives.

What's the stance on Intel or AMD's chipset RAID? I ask around but I'm told it's a hybrid RAID since you don't have the cache backup but it is done in hardware to an extent.

I have two SATA controllers on my P55M-UD2. The Intel one and the additional chip Gigabyte added for 7 SATA ports.

 

[MythicFrost]

I just compared a dell workstation with dual processors (same as Mac Pro), and as close as possible specs the Mac Pro is $1000 cheaper lol.

Mac Pro: $6,049.00

• Dual X5570 Processors @ 2.93GHz
• NVidia GT 120 512MB
• Wireless card
• 1TB HD
• 6GB RAM

Dell workstation: $7,271

• Dual Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processors X5570 2.93GHz
• 6GB, 1066MHz, DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (6 DIMMS)
• 256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295, 2MON, 2 DP w/ 1 DP to DVI Adapter
• 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache
• Wireless card and ethernet
• Plant a Tree for Me - Offset a LCD Monitor (System Discount May Apply) [$3]

What the heck is a 2D graphics card for lol...?

Mac Pro took 15 seconds, dell took me 15 minutes at least, I have had enough of being asked to buy TREES lol

So I guess the dual Mac Pro is cheaper, unless I got the processor model wrong for the Mac Pro?

Kind Regards

 

[nanofrog]

What's the stance on Intel or AMD's chipset RAID? I ask around but I'm told it's a hybrid RAID since you don't have the cache backup but it is done in hardware to an extent.

I have two SATA controllers on my P55M-UD2. The Intel one and the additional chip Gigabyte added for 7 SATA ports.

Let's keep it to Intel, as that's what your board uses.

It uses the P55 chipset, which controlls 5 of the SATA ports, and the remaining pair are handled by the second controller (not sure what the actual part is). It's connected via DMI, not QPI, so the throttling issue in the X58->ICH10R will be gone.

It's RAID functions are software based. It uses the system's CPU for processing, and has no cache, let alone any means of solving the write hole issue for parity based arrays (so don't run type 5). So stick with 0/1/10. It's safer.

Same as any other board that uses the on-board SATA (or SAS) for RAID, unless it specifically states it has a true RAID controller chip on it (an option on some boards, usually server models). Not wonderful, but for a few drives, they're fine, and save space.

Personally, I'd rather have a separate card, and if it uses PCIe lanes (the newer ones do), I'd rather have those lanes back for a slot.

 

[Eidorian]

Thanks for clearing that up for me nanofrog. The secondary SATA and IDE controller for my board is a JMicron JMB363

 

[nanofrog]

Thanks for clearing that up for me nanofrog. The secondary SATA and IDE controller for my board is a JMicron JMB363

NP.

That chip is a single PCIe lane part, so it's going to be limited to 250MB/s. So maybe a single SSD. Fine for a pair of mechanical drives though. If you've attached an IDE drive, and running the limit with HDD's/SSD, you could get throttled on it. So keep it in mind.

Anything connected to the IDE port? Or just the SATA ports on the board?

 

[Eidorian]

I only have two SATA hard drives and a SATA optical drive on the P55's controller. No RAID yet and probably not any time soon.

 

[nanofrog]

I only have two SATA hard drives and a SATA optical drive on the P55's controller. No RAID yet and probably not any time soon.

You're fine.

Theoretically, you can place the optical drive on the JMicron, assuming it will boot off of it (hopefully they included it's Option ROM in the firmware = boot). But even if they did, you could still have an issue, as boot is usually only allowed on on controller. So if you ever had a problem, and needed to boot off the JMicron chip, you'd have to set it in the firmware, fix what ever was wrong, and go back and set the P55 to boot.

I ran into this with the Marvell controllers on my board (clean OS install). It's easy enough to slip your mind, and it got annoying enough (due to the frequency of experiments), that I went ahead and put the optical drive back on the ICH10R (done with testing the RAID functions of it at the time anyway).

 

[Gonk42]

Fair Comparison

As nanofrog has pointed out, you need to have more technical knowldge than the average user to make a fair comparison.

Apple quads basically take a dual processor case and power supply (similar to the Dell T7500) and put a cheap single processor Xeon 3520 in it. Dell don't do this. They provide single processor workstations (the T3500) which are designed as such so have a smaller case and smaller power supply and are much (at least 40%) cheaper than the Apple quad.

The closest comparison point is the Apple octo and the Dell T7500 and here Apple is still more expensive but by a smaller margin. I found that Dell would match the Apple student discounted (17% reduction in UK) price. (I'm a student.)

The Mac Pro has advantages (OS X, nice design etc) and disadvantages (expensive and few graphics cards, less good warranty - you may have to argue and certainly need to pay to get on-site etc) and you certainly have to pay a premium to own one, even if you're a student.

 

[Umbongo]

I just compared a dell workstation with dual processors (same as Mac Pro), and as close as possible specs the Mac Pro is $1000 cheaper lol.

Mac Pro: $6,049.00

• Dual X5570 Processors @ 2.93GHz

Dell workstation: $7,271

• Dual Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processors X5570 2.93GHz

So I guess the dual Mac Pro is cheaper, unless I got the processor model wrong for the Mac Pro?

Kind Regards

Dell are more expensive if you order two 2.66GHz or 2.93GHz Xeons on a dual socket system online. That's what you are seeing there.

 

[nanofrog]

The closest comparison point is the Apple octo and the Dell T7500 and here Apple is still more expensive but by a smaller margin. I found that Dell would match the Apple student discounted (17% reduction in UK) price. (I'm a student.)

It's defintely smaller via the web prices, but by calling, the margin will increase. At least that's what happens in the US. Not sure if this is Dell's policy in the UK, but I do think it's likely. It's a business machine, and they want to sell systems, even if it's small quantities per buyer. But multiple machines can increase the discount, and is extremely valuable for enterprise customers.

 

[nanofrog]

Dell are more expensive if you order two 2.66GHz or 2.93GHz Xeons on a dual socket system online. That's what you are seeing there.

So I take it this in fact is the case in the UK as well.

 

[Gonk42]

So I take it this in fact is the case in the UK as well.

It is probably true with on-line prices (though at present there is a 10% off offer), but Dell are very open to negotiation even for one-off machines. It seems to depend on where in their quarter they are and whether or not salesmen are trying to reach quotas!

It is dangerous to generalise, but my specific experience of getting a quote around six months ago, I found that Dell were able to match the student discounted price for a 2 x 2.66 machine which was around 16% or 17% below Apples list price.

My own position is that I ordered a Dell T3500 but then found Crucial couldn't supply the RAM, and also decided it was more powerful than I needed so I cancelled the order and am making do with an upgraded quad core machine. The upgrade was only about £350 for a new processor, more RAM (8GB) and a faster hard drive and it is nearly as powerful as the base quad MP for a lot less money. If Apple produce a more reasonably priced MP whilst I'm still a student I'll certainly be keen to go for that.

 

[DoFoT9]

It is dangerous to generalise, but my specific experience of getting a quote around six months ago, I found that Dell were able to match the student discounted price for a 2 x 2.66 machine which was around 16% or 17% below Apples list price.

Do you seriously get a 16 or 17% discount being a student in the uk? It is nice to see that you lot treat us the same way you treated us 200 years back! Student discounts over here give you maybe $150aus off for a laptop, tiny bit more for a desktop. It used to resemble around 5% but now they seem to do what they want. I am dissapointed.

Can i ask what you do? constantly maxing out a quad core isnt an easy thing to do.

 

[madwolf]

As many said before - Apple needs something between the laptop-grade iMac and high-end MacPro. That's the only reason I didn't get a mac on my latest computer upgrade. MP is too expensive for me but I need a bit more power than an iMac can give me. So I built my own core i5 + gtx275 + 4gb ddr3 for less than $1000 (with the current exchange rates, I'm from Europe ). Cheaper than an iMac and much more powerful. Unfortunately you need a hacked kernel for macos to work on it... so I'm hoping Apple will use Allendale/Clarksdale in new iMacs, then i5 should also work natively

The performance is more or less on par with MacPro (2.66 Xeon vs 2.66 i5, both Nehalem), i5 is slightly less powerfull but GTX275 is much faster than GT120 (32 cores in GT120 vs 240 cores in GTX275). Half the price.

 

[Tesselator]

You guys are such fanboys... PCs are cheaper than Macs. That's all there is to it. This does not mean PCs are any better than Macs.

There's a few at least that fully agree with this.

Yes all of us multi-tallented folks who can read, add, and subtract.




BTW, comparing two over-priced systems doesn't really count as evidence that the cheapest of the two does not qualify as over-priced!

 

[DoFoT9]

Yes all of us multi-tallented folks who can read, add, and subtract.

what this so called reading thing? ive never heard of it before??

(ignore the irony, of course).

 

[Gonk42]

Do you seriously get a 16 or 17% discount being a student in the uk? It is nice to see that you lot treat us the same way you treated us 200 years back! Student discounts over here give you maybe $150aus off for a laptop, tiny bit more for a desktop. It used to resemble around 5% but now they seem to do what they want. I am dissapointed.

Can i ask what you do? constantly maxing out a quad core isnt an easy thing to do.

The student discount is quite generous in the UK but the prices are high to start with, so the net cost compared to the US is still more even though the
US student discount is only 10% I think. The student discount essentially pays for the VAT. But I think you probably suffer even higher prices in Australia! The discount applies only to pcs and not to things like ipods. It means that in the UK it is not really worth students joining the developers club just for discount (it may be worth it for other reasons). I may have exaggerated the discount because I included Apple care and that is very cheap for students because a basic three year warranty is already included.

I want lots of cores because I'm doing a PhD in computer science and want to run multiple copies of a program (a mathematical theorem prover) so I can use as many cores as there are available. I'm not, therefore, a typical user. And when I finally finish my PhD (this year I hope), my need for cores will probably disappear.

 

[Hellhammer]

All sealed-in-box computers are overpriced. Building one yourself is the cheapest and best way IMO, then you're not paying for the brand and that someone has done the one hour job of putting everything inside

 

[kate-willbury]

pretty obvious that macs are overpriced compared to pc's.

now that macs use intel, the difference is generally just in the OS now. and since windows 7 is now better than snow leopard...

 

[Beric]

All sealed-in-box computers are overpriced. Building one yourself is the cheapest and best way IMO, then you're not paying for the brand and that someone has done the one hour job of putting everything inside

Yup. Built my i7 920 rig for $1100. Way cheaper, does what I need.