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I'm making the best possible comparison - one determined by the processing power and grunt of the machine.

A Xeon in a single core workstation is overkill.

Not for me. I could easily make use of a 12+ core machine. More cores equals more virtual machines I can run. I used to have four Dell quads running at all times as a dev environment. Now I have a single mac and those dells are running in a production environment. Xeons saved me tons of money and time.
 
I'm making the best possible comparison - one determined by the processing power and grunt of the machine.

A Xeon in a single core workstation is overkill.

And a terrible value. Apple's least expensive quad core is $2,499. With 3GB memory and a crap Nvidia GT130. Unbelievable.
 
And a terrible value. Apple's least expensive quad core is $2,499. With 3GB memory and a crap Nvidia GT130. Unbelievable.
It would be better in terms of cost/performance if the system/s were from another vendor though. Around half the cost for a basic W3520 machine.
 
Not for me. I could easily make use of a 12+ core machine. More cores equals more virtual machines I can run. I used to have four Dell quads running at all times as a dev environment. Now I have a single mac and those dells are running in a production environment. Xeons saved me tons of money and time.
What hardware was on the Dell machines?
 
Not for me. I could easily make use of a 12+ core machine.

That's fine. In a SINGLE SOCKET machines, I said (read it again), a XEON is overkill. You would be FAR better off with an i7 CPU with hyperthreading both in terms of performance AND cost.

If you want more cores than a single CPU can provide, then obviously you have to move to multi-socket solutions and that dictates using a Xeon processor.
 
Just got myself a Mac Pro Quad Core from Amazon for $2,290 incl. ship and no tax. Most everybody says wow, nice, but expensive. Overpriced? I almost thought so until a had Dell create a similar box, and low and behold...

Check out the components, I chose them to be as close to the Mac as possible...

  • Dell Precision T5500 Workstation
  • Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus 64 -Windows XP Professional downgrade
  • Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor X5550 2.66GHz,8M L3, 6.4GT/s,turbo
  • Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration w/ 1394 Card
  • 3GB, DDR3 RDIMM Memory,1333MHz, ECC (3 DIMMS)
  • 512MB NVIDIA® Quadro® FX 580, DUAL MON, 2 DP & 1 DVI
  • C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration
  • Integrated Intel chipset SATA 3.0Gb/s controller
  • 500GB SATA 3.0Gb/s with NCQ and 16MB DataBurst Cache™
  • 16X DVD-ROM with Cyberlink Power DVD™

THE PRICE CAME TO ABOUT $3,100 !!!

Factor in that the case of the Mac Pro is superior to any Dell case in so many ways and I have just busted the myth of the overpriced Apple computer.

Maybe you haven't noticed that the Dell comes with a REAL workstation class graphics card AND it comes with at least three years of on-site warranty -- the latter alone being something Mac users can only dream of.

I also cannot hear the myth anymore that "the Mac comes with the superior operating system". It does not. OS X in average performs crappier and less reliable than 64-Bit Windows, and it also lacks all the features that you want to have in a large network environment where remote administration capabilities and centralized configuration/management are important. Furthermore, OS X is only a viable choice for a certain spectrum of software. Try doing CAD on a Mac. Or running whatever business software your company/enterprise uses on a Mac -- and I'm not talking about Microsoft Office here.

Besides, I really don't know where the price you quoted comes from. That machine above costs less than 1500 Euros when I look at the European Dell website. And when I call my company's sales contact at Dell, I know that I will get a much better deal than when I order it from the website.

But you're right in one aspect: The Mac Pro has a much nicer case than the Dell. But after all, that's all that Apple is about: Nice designs. And the build nice and quiet all-in-one-PCs. But whether you like it or not, Apple nowadays is just one of the many Intel PC OEMs on the market, and despite everything Apple's marketing machinery tries to hammer into our heads, a Mac uses the very same PC component that Dell or Toshiba or Lenovo also use. You pay for the design and the brand - and an operating system that is not the answer to the world's problems, and that is also not everybody's Nirvana.
 
Maybe you haven't noticed that the Dell comes with a REAL workstation class graphics card AND it comes with at least three years of on-site warranty -- the latter alone being something Mac users can only dream of.

I also cannot hear the myth anymore that "the Mac comes with the superior operating system". It does not. OS X in average performs crappier and less reliable than 64-Bit Windows, and it also lacks all the features that you want to have in a large network environment where remote administration capabilities and centralized configuration/management are important. Furthermore, OS X is only a viable choice for a certain spectrum of software. Try doing CAD on a Mac. Or running whatever business software your company/enterprise uses on a Mac -- and I'm not talking about Microsoft Office here.

Besides, I really don't know where the price you quoted comes from. That machine above costs less than 1500 Euros when I look at the European Dell website. And when I call my company's sales contact at Dell, I know that I will get a much better deal than when I order it from the website.

But you're right in one aspect: The Mac Pro has a much nicer case than the Dell. But after all, that's all that Apple is about: Nice designs. And the build nice and quiet all-in-one-PCs. But whether you like it or not, Apple nowadays is just one of the many Intel PC OEMs on the market, and despite everything Apple's marketing machinery tries to hammer into our heads, a Mac uses the very same PC component that Dell or Toshiba or Lenovo also use. You pay for the design and the brand - and an operating system that is not the answer to the world's problems, and that is also not everybody's Nirvana.

Why do i think you are just jealous? I have had several dells, and while they are usually OK, they DO NO COME CLOSE to Apple build quality. And yes, Apples also break down sometimes like everything else in this imperfect world. I dare anybody here to show me a computer case as well built and elegant as the cables-less mac pro. and please show me a dell store where you can take your computer to have an expert check it out for you -for FREE!
 
Why do i think you are just jealous? I have had several dells, and while they are usually OK, they DO NO COME CLOSE to Apple build quality. And yes, Apples also break down sometimes like everything else in this imperfect world. I dare anybody here to show me a computer case as well built and elegant as the cables-less mac pro. and please show me a dell store where you can take your computer to have an expert check it out for you -for FREE!
Why would I haul my computer around when I can have it done on-site? :confused:

Not everyone lives near an Apple store either and it's a trickle down to an AASP.
 
Maybe you haven't noticed that the Dell comes with a REAL workstation class graphics card AND it comes with at least three years of on-site warranty -- the latter alone being something Mac users can only dream of.

I also cannot hear the myth anymore that "the Mac comes with the superior operating system". It does not. OS X in average performs crappier and less reliable than 64-Bit Windows, and it also lacks all the features that you want to have in a large network environment where remote administration capabilities and centralized configuration/management are important. Furthermore, OS X is only a viable choice for a certain spectrum of software. Try doing CAD on a Mac. Or running whatever business software your company/enterprise uses on a Mac -- and I'm not talking about Microsoft Office here.

Besides, I really don't know where the price you quoted comes from. That machine above costs less than 1500 Euros when I look at the European Dell website. And when I call my company's sales contact at Dell, I know that I will get a much better deal than when I order it from the website.

But you're right in one aspect: The Mac Pro has a much nicer case than the Dell. But after all, that's all that Apple is about: Nice designs. And the build nice and quiet all-in-one-PCs. But whether you like it or not, Apple nowadays is just one of the many Intel PC OEMs on the market, and despite everything Apple's marketing machinery tries to hammer into our heads, a Mac uses the very same PC component that Dell or Toshiba or Lenovo also use. You pay for the design and the brand - and an operating system that is not the answer to the world's problems, and that is also not everybody's Nirvana.

The only good card I saw there was the Quadro FX 1.5GB (can't remember model#), you can get the Quadro FX 4800 1.5GB for Mac for a similar price I believe.
I don't know what any of the others were or whether they are good or not, the 2D graphics cards category scared me a little though :eek:

We can argue for the rest of eternity which OS is better, I prefer OSX and in fact the more I use it the more I love it.
From what I've heard, OSX is common among creative professionals, anything audio/graphical etc..

Windows seems to have a rep for business, although I can't say I know much about that, or why OSX doesn't (if it actually doesn't)

You say OSX performs crappier on average, how do you know this, or is it just your opinion?

If you don't like OSX, there's probably no reason to get a Mac apart from the strict set of hardware they use (OSX therefore runs more stable, although maybe it runs just as well on hackintosh - I don't know).
In the end, the person must evaluate what is most important to them, and decide what computer offers that, or the most of what they need.

I long for the day that may never come, when Apple drop their prices to effectively compete with PCs. Good for me, and everyone else who wants a Mac.

EDIT: I've heard with the workstations that Apple do provide some on-site service, I don't really know though, I just heard someone say that.

Kind Regards
 
That's fine. In a SINGLE SOCKET machines, I said (read it again), a XEON is overkill. You would be FAR better off with an i7 CPU with hyperthreading both in terms of performance AND cost.

If you want more cores than a single CPU can provide, then obviously you have to move to multi-socket solutions and that dictates using a Xeon processor.

The point of my argument is not regarding sockets. It is that generalizing anything is "overpriced" is always a dead end, as are all generalizations. Just as many will feel the price is a great value for the product (or more). Those that get the value they desire rarely complain.
 
That's fine. In a SINGLE SOCKET machines, I said (read it again), a XEON is overkill. You would be FAR better off with an i7 CPU with hyperthreading both in terms of performance AND cost.

If you want more cores than a single CPU can provide, then obviously you have to move to multi-socket solutions and that dictates using a Xeon processor.
I agree.

The only need of a SP Xeon, is for ECC memory, and that's RARE. Aerospace, military/defense systems, scientific research (particularly those in high energy physics, such as super collider experiments,...) are such examples. Not machines in an office building or at a user's home. :p

I have had several dells, and while they are usually OK, they DO NO COME CLOSE to Apple build quality.
This, and other posts you've made, gives me the impression those systems were all consumer machines though. Their business machines, particularly their workstations and servers, are nice and clean inside (cable routing), due to the need for really good airflow.

and please show me a dell store where you can take your computer to have an expert check it out for you -for FREE!
You don't have to with other vendors though. The business/enterprise side in particular, as they've absolutely NO interest in having to haul in a broken system. It's too much hassle, and costs them money (additional down time). They need a "computer mechanic" to come to the machine, and either bring the parts with them, or have them shipped to the repair location (building where the machine resides). Now keep in mind, this is even offered on the consumer systems as well, sometimes as part of the basic system, other times it's an add-on feature. :eek: But it's available. Not so much with Apple's systems (save the XServe IIRC).

Windows seems to have a rep for business, although I can't say I know much about that, or why OSX doesn't (if it actually doesn't)
Apple won't license their OS to be used on other systems. Unless they change on this position, they'll never have any real share of the business/enterprise market. No matter any other issues that may also exist.

EDIT: I've heard with the workstations that Apple do provide some on-site service, I don't really know though, I just heard someone say that.
They're supposed to, if you live more than 50 miles from the nearest Apple store. But they seem to make it as inconvenient as possible, to coerce users to bring it to them, no matter the distance (from what I've understood from other posts).
 
I agree.

The only need of a SP Xeon, is for ECC memory, and that's RARE. Aerospace, military/defense systems, scientific research (particularly those in high energy physics, such as super collider experiments,...) are such examples. Not machines in an office building or at a user's home. :p

I understand RAM running that hot isn't a good thing, but would ECC memory protect against "soft" errors that would be caused by overheating? Of course, I'll be running some "high energy physics" expiriments at some point (Say, 50 GHz laser to entrap singular atoms? :D Xeon-for-a-laptop would be out-of-the-question, tho.)

Their business machines, particularly their workstations and servers, are nice and clean inside (cable routing), due to the need for really good airflow.

I haven't worked with the workstation line, but my Precision M4400 is pretty well laid out and clean. I know its a laptop, but it runs cooler then similar-spec'd MBPs. Not exactly the "Mac Pro", but a relevant comparison.
 
I agree.

The only need of a SP Xeon, is for ECC memory, and that's RARE. Aerospace, military/defense systems, scientific research (particularly those in high energy physics, such as super collider experiments,...) are such examples. Not machines in an office building or at a user's home. :p

Again generalizations never completely hold up. Many developers can make use of Xeon 5500, ECC, Hyper-Threading in a Mac Pro. It allows true virtualization on a desktop and is our future. Windows is the worst environment possible to run virtual OSs. I doubt many can set up a XEN virtualization system and be happy (does make an awesome server enviroment on a 2950). These are all common everyday tasks nowadays.

This, and other posts you've made, gives me the impression those systems were all consumer machines though. Their business machines, particularly their workstations and servers, are nice and clean inside (cable routing), due to the need for really good airflow.

The Dell 2950s I use are pretty awesome machines. The R900 4x quad is a beast, is extremely well made, and makes a great DB server. If Apple ever made machines like these, it would be the end of Apple as we know it. I don't want Apple enterprise hardware, that is already covered and covered well. Dell doesn't make a desktop that compares to a Mac Pro and it is a good thing.

Apple won't license their OS to be used on other systems. Unless they change on this position, they'll never have any real share of the business/enterprise market. No matter any other issues that may also exist.

Apple has never had to cater to the mainstream to make a profit, why should they now? They are a niche company with a niche product and that usually costs a bit more. They know who their customers are even if some don't agree with that.
 
I understand RAM running that hot isn't a good thing, but would ECC memory protect against "soft" errors that would be caused by overheating? Of course, I'll be running some "high energy physics" expiriments at some point (Say, 50 GHz laser to entrap singular atoms? :D Xeon-for-a-laptop would be out-of-the-question, tho.)
No, ECC won't help with overheating, as it affects the ECC results as well (it's still hardware, and getting "cooked" like the rest of the memory :p).

I haven't worked with the workstation line, but my Precision M4400 is pretty well laid out and clean. I know its a laptop, but it runs cooler then similar-spec'd MBPs. Not exactly the "Mac Pro", but a relevant comparison.
The consumer side can end up a mixed bag. Some of it is nice and clean, others not so much. Loading a base system up with options can be the cause for the mess, and it was worse IMO, when the dominant drive interface was still IDE/PATA (due to multiple drives using wide cables). SATA or SAS is much cleaner.
 
Again generalizations never completely hold up. Many developers can make use of Xeon 5500, ECC, Hyper-Threading in a Mac Pro. It allows true virtualization on a desktop and is our future. Windows is the worst environment possible to run virtual OSs. I doubt many can set up a XEN virtualization system and be happy (does make an awesome server enviroment on a 2950). These are all common everyday tasks nowadays.
Xeon 55xx parts are DP solutions, not SP, such as the 35xx parts. And you don't require ECC for VM's. You can use an i7-9xx for VM systems. It has everything the 35xx parts do (i.e. hyper-threading, which isn't well supported ATM, and virtualization functions) save the ECC function. That's it, and it's been used sucessfully for such systems.

If you want to go with a DP system (or better, using 75xx parts), that you must use Xeon, which do contain the ECC functionality by default. But you do not have to use ECC DDR3. You can use non ECC versions to save on costs if the environment (i.e. radiation levels) is within normal levels.

The Dell 2950s I use are pretty awesome machines. The R900 4x quad is a beast, is extremely well made, and makes a great DB server. If Apple ever made machines like these, it would be the end of Apple as we know it. I don't want Apple enterprise hardware, that is already covered and covered well. Dell doesn't make a desktop that compares to a Mac Pro and it is a good thing.
Both are nice systems, and are well designed internally. You even get details like modular fans for quick/easy replacement. Complaining about the interiors as a mess doesn't add up, if such systems are your basis for such statements. :confused:

Had it been the consumer line with a loaded case (drives) when the drive tech was IDE, then that would make some sense.

Apple has never had to cater to the mainstream to make a profit, why should they now? They are a niche company with a niche product and that usually costs a bit more. They know who their customers are even if some don't agree with that.
Apple is in business specifically to make money though. They just went for the niche market, as there wasn't anything else. They were screwed on both ends per se in terms of competing directly with MS and the other hardware vendors, given they didn't make their hardware of the same components (PPC days), or license out their OS.

That's where the video/graphics market push came from. But now they're even abandoning these users it seems, as they're more intersted in the portable device market, as they have a larger share (makes sense too btw).
 
No, ECC won't help with overheating, as it affects the ECC results as well (it's still hardware, and getting "cooked" like the rest of the memory :p).

Should've known :rolleyes: Thanks, though.

The consumer side can end up a mixed bag. Some of it is nice and clean, others not so much. Loading a base system up with options can be the cause for the mess, and it was worse IMO, when the dominant drive interface was still IDE/PATA (due to multiple drives using wide cables). SATA or SAS is much cleaner.

Indeed. Now that I've been thinking about it, I popped open an older Dell that was a complete cable monster - however, Dell cooled off the CPU by having its own plastic shroud from front-of-case to rear-of-case. But it was all there - IDE, FDD, and all the power cables left unused. :p Worse then one of my custom builds, which I can't say too much about, either. :eek:

i have an 8500GT as my desktop GPU, does that count? ;)

Nope
:D
 
Indeed. Now that I've been thinking about it, I popped open an older Dell that was a complete cable monster - however, Dell cooled off the CPU by having its own plastic shroud from front-of-case to rear-of-case. But it was all there - IDE, FDD, and all the power cables left unused. :p Worse then one of my custom builds, which I can't say too much about, either. :eek:
Dell's used the shroud method for awhile. At least commonly as far back as P4 systems.

Mine's not horrible (build), but if I were willing to hack the cables to shorten the length (those possible, such as PSU), it could be done cleaner. But I didn't want to do it, as I'd end up moving something again, and end up with another problem - too short. :rolleyes:

But it's out of the way, and doesn't interfere with airflow. I just had to get creative with folding it out of the way, or taking the long way around. :D :p
 
The QuadroFX 580 is like a $185 card, not a $1700 card.

Just wanted to clear that up.

I was not speaking of that card, there is a graphics card there that when I clicked it in the dell workstation customization page added 1,500.
EDIT: checking it, it's the Quadro FX 4800 1.5GB and it comes in at around 1,500.

What exactly does Windows offer for businesses that OSX does not?


Kind Regards
 
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