Is Apple Concerned About Your Privacy?

[MacTiki]

First off you literally misquoted me and literally changed what I said.

You changed my words from: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag.

To: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag cheap GPS tracker.

This potential scenario existed long before Apple AirTags existed, and it’d continue to exist even if Apple were to discontinue them. Even T-Mobile and Verizon market cellular GPS trackers…. With ZERO notification to anyone if being used for nefarious purposes.

It’s happening.

If the Airtags were discontinued then at least there would be one less highly effective vector for the commission of a crime.

Tell us, what is your solution to the overall issue of it being easy to surreptitiously track people?

Also please answer this - what companies, other than Apple, have taken *any* real steps to try to balance notifying people of nefarious tracking with helping people find their lost stuff?

People’s lives and safety is not something I believe should be associated with “If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.”

What stuff are you talking about?

There are many other options one can use to find or better yet not lose their stuff without unnecessarily placing the public at large at risk thru the use of an Airtag.

Are you talking about lost stuff or stolen stuff?

If the stuff is that important insure it. Most renters and homeowners insurance covers lost and stole stuff.

If a person loses a lot of stuff a book or class on organizational skills improvement might be the solution.

There are RF tags which can transmit several hundred feet. These low tech devices emit a loud sound when triggered with remote and do not offer the possibility of long range tracking.

If a person is frequently misplacing and losing stuff it might be time to see a neurologist to rule out any early onset cognitive issue.

Along that same line spending less time on TikTok and YouTube will do wonders for increasing a person attention span.

Theft prevention measures are easy to implement and are often seen as a deterrent to crime.

Surveillance cameras, alarm systems, safes, yard signs, dogs, fences, personal protection devices, bars on windows, strong doors with intrusion resistant framing and locking mechanisms, etc...

If crime is rampant then the person should consider moving rather than spending their days tracking their stolen stuff.

Personal memorabilia, photos, computer data, the lives of loved ones and pets should be the stuff people prioritize for protection.

The oher “stuff” that most people have can be replaced with insurance claim and a few minutes online.

 

[44267547]

First off you literally misquoted me and literally changed what I said.

You changed my words from: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag.

To: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag cheap GPS tracker.

It’s happening.

If the Airtags were discontinued then at least there would be one less highly effective vector for the commission of a crime.

People’s lives and safety is not something I believe should be associated with “If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.”

What stuff are you talking about?

There are many other options one can use to find or better yet not lose their stuff without unnecessarily placing the public at large at risk thru the use of an Airtag.

Are you talking about lost stuff or stolen stuff?

If the stuff is that important insure it. Most renters and homeowners insurance covers lost and stole stuff.

If a person loses a lot of stuff a book or class on organizational skills improvement might be the solution.

There are RF tags which can transmit several hundred feet. These low tech devices emit a loud sound when triggered with remote and do not offer the possibility of long range tracking.

If a person is frequently misplacing and losing stuff it might be time to see a neurologist to rule out any early onset cognitive issue.

Along that same line spending less time on TikTok and YouTube will do wonders for increasing a person attention span.

Theft prevention measures are easy to implement and are often seen as a deterrent to crime.

Surveillance cameras, alarm systems, safes, yard signs, dogs, fences, personal protection devices, bars on windows, strong doors with intrusion resistant framing and locking mechanisms, etc...

If crime is rampant then the person should consider moving rather than spending their days tracking their stolen stuff.

Personal memorabilia, photos, computer data, the lives of loved ones and pets should be the stuff people prioritize for protection.

The oher “stuff” that most people have can be replaced with insurance claim and a few minutes online.

Your logic is so far-fetched, most of which isn’t even reasonable and quite frankly, you’re arguing just for the ‘sake of arguing’ with circular talk that’s just becoming a vicious cycle. Seriously, there’s no reasoning with you, because you’re going to refute somebody for what they say no matter what.

So here’s where I leave this:

Why don’t you stop investing so much wasted energy on a thread where you’re making zero progress and most of what you believe to be is logical fallacy, and why don’t you invest your persistence following up with Apple. I mean, that’s your whole goal, right? Is to have the AirTags be eliminated and that’s one less GPS tracking device on the market. So nothing here is going to create that progress for you, —versus— taking your ‘beliefs’ to the source itself.

 

[TiggrToo]

You changed my words from: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag.

To: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag cheap GPS tracker.

Yes, to demonstrate that your arguments are baseless.

In your perfect world, Apple ban Airtags - then what? How does that stop anyone from stalking anyone else?

It doesn't. And that's why no-one else here discussing this agrees with you.

1. What proof do you have that stalking has increased since, and due to, the arrival of Airtags?
2. What proof do you have that Airtags are now the choice of stalking device by criminals?
3. What proof do you have that the elimination of Airtags will cut down the amount of stalking?

You need to supply hard evidence here - not just "I read this" or "Look at the number of".

Hard concrete proof only. No wiffle-waffle.

If you are unable to provide that then your concerns are totally baseless.

Which is the real issue here: you've brought into the paranoia that the press and social media created. This is known as "Frequency Illusion" - where people mistake what they read as being inductive of a real problem just because they've read a lot about it.

Your entire thread is a "Hasty Pretext" logical falacy, coupled with a heavy dose of "No True Scotsman" for good measure.

 

[TiggrToo]

First off you literally misquoted me and literally changed what I said.

You changed my words from: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag.

To: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag cheap GPS tracker.

It’s happening.

If the Airtags were discontinued then at least there would be one less highly effective vector for the commission of a crime.

People’s lives and safety is not something I believe should be associated with “If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.”

What stuff are you talking about?

There are many other options one can use to find or better yet not lose their stuff without unnecessarily placing the public at large at risk thru the use of an Airtag.

Are you talking about lost stuff or stolen stuff?

If the stuff is that important insure it. Most renters and homeowners insurance covers lost and stole stuff.

If a person loses a lot of stuff a book or class on organizational skills improvement might be the solution.

There are RF tags which can transmit several hundred feet. These low tech devices emit a loud sound when triggered with remote and do not offer the possibility of long range tracking.

If a person is frequently misplacing and losing stuff it might be time to see a neurologist to rule out any early onset cognitive issue.

Along that same line spending less time on TikTok and YouTube will do wonders for increasing a person attention span.

Theft prevention measures are easy to implement and are often seen as a deterrent to crime.

Surveillance cameras, alarm systems, safes, yard signs, dogs, fences, personal protection devices, bars on windows, strong doors with intrusion resistant framing and locking mechanisms, etc...

If crime is rampant then the person should consider moving rather than spending their days tracking their stolen stuff.

Personal memorabilia, photos, computer data, the lives of loved ones and pets should be the stuff people prioritize for protection.

The oher “stuff” that most people have can be replaced with insurance claim and a few minutes online.

Meanwhile...let's also ban Apple Watches while we're about it: https://www.news18.com/news/tech/man-arrested-for-stalking-girlfriend-using-apple-watch-4917872.html

 

[MacTiki]

Your logic is so far-fetched, most of which isn’t even reasonable and quite frankly, you’re arguing just for the ‘sake of arguing’ with circular talk that’s just becoming a vicious cycle. Seriously, there’s no reasoning with you, because you’re going to refute somebody for what they say no matter what.

Some would say that “it’s like talking to a wall”. Hmmm...

Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean you are right and the other person is wrong.

Stop “killing the messenger” and stay on point with the what issues are presented by a poster.

With little exception no person who presented a dissenting opinion did so by directly addressing the points I raised.

Attempting to justify the sale of the Airtag by saying other companies sell similar risky devices does not somehow lessen the dangers the Airtag presents. It does however highlight the need to question the sell of consumer grade tracking devices.

So here’s where I leave this:

Why don’t you stop investing so much wasted energy on a thread where you’re making zero progress and most of what you believe to be is logical fallacy, and why don’t you invest your persistence following up with Apple.

I didn’t realize that my post in a public forum was a ‘waste of energy’ nor did I realize this post or my comments were having no impact. Like another poster said ‘I don’t read minds’ so you nor I cannot know what impact my comments or this post has had or will have on those who have or will read it. Change seldom happens overnight. Unfortunately most people have an attention span of a gnat and expect instant gratification and are unwilling to exert a little energy or effort to achieve a goal let alone establish a goal.

I mean, that’s your whole goal, right? Is to have the AirTags be eliminated and that’s one less GPS tracking device on the market. So nothing here is going to create that progress for you, —versus— taking your ‘beliefs’ to the source itself.

See above.

Not to cut you off but rather as an attempt to conserve energy I will consider our exchange concluded with regard to this topic and post.

 

[deeddawg]

First off you literally misquoted me and literally changed what I said.

You changed my words from: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag.

To: Bentley gets marked with an Airtag cheap GPS tracker.

It’s happening.

If the Airtags were discontinued then at least there would be one less highly effective vector for the commission of a crime.

People’s lives and safety is not something I believe should be associated with “If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.”

What stuff are you talking about?

There are many other options one can use to find or better yet not lose their stuff without unnecessarily placing the public at large at risk thru the use of an Airtag.

Are you talking about lost stuff or stolen stuff?

If the stuff is that important insure it. Most renters and homeowners insurance covers lost and stole stuff.

If a person loses a lot of stuff a book or class on organizational skills improvement might be the solution.

There are RF tags which can transmit several hundred feet. These low tech devices emit a loud sound when triggered with remote and do not offer the possibility of long range tracking.

If a person is frequently misplacing and losing stuff it might be time to see a neurologist to rule out any early onset cognitive issue.

Along that same line spending less time on TikTok and YouTube will do wonders for increasing a person attention span.

Theft prevention measures are easy to implement and are often seen as a deterrent to crime.

Surveillance cameras, alarm systems, safes, yard signs, dogs, fences, personal protection devices, bars on windows, strong doors with intrusion resistant framing and locking mechanisms, etc...

If crime is rampant then the person should consider moving rather than spending their days tracking their stolen stuff.

Personal memorabilia, photos, computer data, the lives of loved ones and pets should be the stuff people prioritize for protection.

The oher “stuff” that most people have can be replaced with insurance claim and a few minutes online.

@TiggrToo responded with much of what I'd have written, so I won't repeat those comments except to state that my clearly marked edit was to emphasize the larger matter at hand. I also will note that you insurance comments shows a naïveté of not having actually dealt with insurance companies, deductibles, reduced-values, claims history, and rate increases.

You also neglected to answer my two direct questions:

#1 - What is your solution to the overall issue of it being easy to surreptitiously track people?

#2 - what companies, other than Apple, have taken *any* real steps to try to balance notifying people of nefarious tracking with helping people find their lost stuff?

 

[MacTiki]

Yes, to demonstrate that your arguments are baseless.

We should let those who have already been victimized through the utilization of an Airtag know this as I am sure it would bring them great comfort. (Is this were I should put a sarcasm symbol?)

In your perfect world, Apple ban Airtags - then what? How does that stop anyone from stalking anyone else?

For the record ‘in my perfect world’ there would be no crime.

Banning Airtags would not stop people from being stalked. It would however prevent people from being a victim of Airtag stalking.

It doesn't. And that's why no-one else here discussing this agrees with you.

I did not know that my views or concerns were limited to only those who are engaged in this back and forth discussion.

1. What proof do you have that stalking has increased since, and due to, the arrival of Airtags?
2. What proof do you have that Airtags are now the choice of stalking device by criminals?
3. What proof do you have that the elimination of Airtags will cut down the amount of stalking?

You need to supply hard evidence here - not just "I read this" or "Look at the number of".

Hard concrete proof only. No wiffle-waffle.

If you are unable to provide that then your concerns are totally baseless.

I am not sure how your questions are relevant to my original post or concerns.

I am trying to address the risk the release of the Airtag in its current operational form poses to the general public.

With a quick search on (G) I located an article on Detroit Free Press discussing the risk of the Airtag.

The basic utility of them is to track objects or persons, and so it makes sense that someone would use it for nefarious purposes to that end," said Tom Holt, cybersecurity expert and professor in the School of Criminal Justice at Michigan State University.
More and more cases are popping up around the country. In New York, a model was stalked after someone slipped an AirTag into her coat pocket. In Michigan, a Novi man found one of the trackers on his Dodge Charger in December, Fox 2 reported.
The Dearborn Police Department has seen an uptick in AirTag-related crimes and posted a public safety video on Nextdoor.

Apple AirTags connected to cases of stalking, car theft

Dearborn Police said they've found the quarter-sized devices behind license plates, between car seats and in purses, among other places.

www.freep.com

Which is the real issue here: you've brought into the paranoia that the press and social media created. This is known as "Frequency Illusion" - where people mistake what they read as being inductive of a real problem just because they've read a lot about it.

I’m not sure how one can provide you “proof” without that “proof” or the person providing the “proof” to be considered paranoid.

Your entire thread is a "Hasty Pretext" logical falacy, coupled with a heavy dose of "No True Scotsman" for good measure.

Your understanding of the Airtag apparently far exceeds mine and those who have been victimized thru their use. I will consider our exchange concluded with regards to this post.

 

[MacTiki]

@TiggrToo responded with much of what I'd have written, so I won't repeat those comments except to state that my clearly marked edit was to emphasize the larger matter at hand.

Not to belabor a point but editing the words of someone within a quote block of text endangers the spirt and intent of the discussion and undermines a fair and healthy exchange. You have taken it upon yourself to assume that those who read your edit of my words has read the original post that the text was quoted from and are aware that you made the edit and put words in my mouth.

I also will note that you insurance comments shows a naïveté of not having actually dealt with insurance companies, deductibles, reduced-values, claims history, and rate increases.

You are completely clueless to my ‘dealings’, and the policies I carry, with insurance companies and the pain and hardship endured due to their stonewalling of the claims process and might I add any legal proceedings arising from any failure of such companies not honoring their contractual obligations.

Victims are seldom victimized by a single perpetrator.

Furthermore the population at large should not bear the cost of one’s unwillingness or inability to adequately insure their “stuff”.

Life is hard and seldom fair.

A lot of people attempt to “Keep up with the Joneses” Many purchase “stuff” that they cannot afford to own.

None of which negates the risk the Airtag presents to the population at large in it current operational form.

I cautiously responded to your question “what is your solution” in a manor that I had hoped would not take this discussion on yet another tangent. Unfortunately I did not succeed.

You also neglected to answer my two direct questions:

#1 - What is your solution to the overall issue of it being easy to surreptitiously track people?

#2 - what companies, other than Apple, have taken *any* real steps to try to balance notifying people of nefarious tracking with helping people find their lost stuff?

I have addressed those two questions via direct response to you or in replies to other posts.

I apparently do not have the communication skills necessary to adequately convey my thoughts to you regarding the risk Airtags in their current implementation impose on the population at large.

In an effort to prevent our interaction from going on a myriad of tangents I will consider our exchange concluded with regards to this post.

 

[deeddawg]

[...] You have taken it upon yourself to assume that those who read your edit of my words has read the original post that the text was quoted from [...] I have addressed those two questions via direct response to you or in replies to other posts.

So on one hand you're concerned readers cannot follow the context across four posts - when the quoted text directly links to the original, yet on the other hand you avoid directly answering two questions because you claim you'd already responded in some other unidentified posts somewhere in the thread.

Choose one standard or the other.

You are completely clueless to my ‘dealings’ with insurance companies and their stonewalling of the claims process and might I add any legal proceedings arising from any failure of such companies not honoring their contractual obligations.

Your flippancy as to the use of insurance vs finding your stuff makes it very clear that you've had few dealings with insurance companies.

I cautiously responded to your question “what is your solution” in a manor that I had hoped would not take this discussion on another tangent. Unfortunately I did not succeed.

I have addressed those two questions via direct response to you or in replies to other posts.

No, not that I've seen. Please cite the specific posts you feel answered my two questions:

#1 - What is your solution to the overall issue of it being easy to surreptitiously track people?

#2 - what companies, other than Apple, have taken *any* real steps to try to balance notifying people of nefarious tracking with helping people find their lost stuff?

I apparently do not have the communication skills necessary to adequately convey my thoughts to you regarding the risk Airtags in their current implementation impose on the population at large.

Here's helpful suggestion for better communication - directly address the questions posed to you, and try to organize your thoughts into structured responses.

The point others are making to you is that whether or not Airtags exist, the would-be stalker has readily available inexpensive tools by which to track their target. Should your wish come true, should Airtags cease to exist, the world would likely be little different.

Yes, some "casual" stalkers might not make the effort to go with a different tracker, but are they _really_ the danger that you feel they are? You've not established that as fact. I, and presumably others, anticipate that the serious/dangerous stalker wouldn't be thwarted by the non-existance of Airtags since there are many other inexpensive options - that arguably work better*

Your concerns actually illustrate that Apple's efforts to make AirTags announce their presence have dramatically increased the public's awareness of potentially being tracked by a small electronic device. This wasn't a topic anyone (who wasn't a stalker) discussed a year ago - yet the devices to do so existed well before then. Not to mention the non-technology method of simply following the target.

(*) if the victim (or someone they hang out with) has an iphone they will be notified within a period of time of an airtag following them. If the victim does not have an iphone and has no friends/family with iphones, then the location of the airtag will be inaccurate since there's no iphone to report the location.

The FindMy network tends to lag in its reporting. With my testing of an airtag in my garage while we were out of town, its location randomly showed as different houses up and down my street. Neighbors drove by, their phone picked up the airtag, but it didn't report the location for a few minutes by which time they were several houses away. Had that airtag been intended for nefarious purposes the stalker wouldn't have know which of ~20 houses to consider.

Contrast to a cellular/GPS that'll give the precise location within a few feet and never notify anyone as to its presence.

 

[TiggrToo]

We should let those who have already been victimized through the utilization of an Airtag know this as I am sure it would bring them great comfort. (Is this were I should put a sarcasm symbol?)

For the record ‘in my perfect world’ there would be no crime.

Banning Airtags would not stop people from being stalked. It would however prevent people from being a victim of Airtag stalking.

I did not know that my views or concerns were limited to only those who are engaged in this back and forth discussion.

I am not sure how your questions are relevant to my original post or concerns.

I am trying to address the risk the release of the Airtag in its current operational form poses to the general public.

With a quick search on (G) I located an article on Detroit Free Press discussing the risk of the Airtag.




I’m not sure how one can provide you “proof” without that “proof” or the person providing the “proof” to be considered paranoid.

Your understanding of the Airtag apparently far exceeds mine and those who have been victimized thru their use. I will consider our exchange concluded with regards to this post.

Given that you have not shown - with evidence - that the problem exists, I'm going to consider the issue mute and no longer worth debating.

I gave you every chance to provide facts - however, as suspected, you didn't.

Fear and supposition does not equal facts.

Don't worry - you're not alone. Even the press who raised this as a concern failed to actually provide facts behind the hype.

 

[deeddawg]

Given that you have not shown - with evidence - that the problem exists, I'm going to consider the issue mute and no longer worth debating.

I gave you every chance to provide facts - however, as suspected, you didn't.

Fear and supposition does not equal facts.

Don't worry - you're not alone. Even the press who raised this as a concern failed to actually provide facts behind the hype.

What, Proof-by-Handwaving isn't sufficient?

 

[deeddawg]

Given that you have not shown - with evidence - that the problem exists, I'm going to consider the issue mute and no longer worth debating

In fairness, it's pretty easy to find reports of women being alerted to an airtag following them. While some may be hoaxes, it is my opinion that many are not.

What has not been shown, though, is that these incidents would not have occurred if Airtags didn't exist. In fact, it is only because of the alerting that these victims became aware that they were targets. Had other devices been used it is unlikely these women would've ever known.

Which is really the crux here - is the rate of actual harmful-result stalking incidents truly different since Airtags were released, or is it merely a perception matter? Airtags make headlines because they alert people of their existence. Cellular/GPS trackers don't, because they're not really the news relative to the stalking/assault incident - and frankly also because "Apple" in any headline will draw clicks/views.

 

[TiggrToo]

In fairness, it's pretty easy to find reports of women being alerted to an airtag following them. While some may be hoaxes, it is my opinion that many are not.

What has not been shown, though, is that these incidents would not have occurred if Airtags didn't exist. In fact, it is only because of the alerting that these victims became aware that they were targets. Had other devices been used it is unlikely these women would've ever known.

Which is really the crux here - is the rate of actual harmful-result stalking incidents truely different since Airtags were release, or is it merely a perception matter? Airtags make headlines because they alert people of their existence. Cellular/GPS trackers don't, because they're not really the news relative to the stalking/assault - and frankly also because "Apple" in any headline will draw clicks/views.

That’s just it. What’s happened is an increase of reports because they were AirTags and therefore the press kept on them because it generated clicks - and clicks = $$$. This gives the illusion then that Airtags are the cause of this when the truth is, for as long as tracking devices have been available, stalkers have used them to stalk.

The actual reality is that initially Airtags were used for this by a microscopic few bad actors, but with the publicity created, and Apple’s changes to how they work, the idea of using of them as stalking devices has decreased dramatically because they’re no longer useful to stalkers.

Yeah, I know that you need a newer iPhone or Android device, but even that said, if a Stalker wishes to use a Tile, or off-the-shelf tracking device, no-one’s going to be able to detect them without specialized equipment.

And it gets worse - now Apple have enabled the features that make it much much easier to discover when you’re being tracked with an AirTag (the extremely hyperbolic example provided by our friend about the 70 year old, $200,000 Bentley owner notwithstanding) Stalkers will just migrate onto other devices to continue stalking - without the victims being aware (e.g. the stalker and him attaching an Apple Watch to his ex’s car).

Our erstwhile friend here doesn’t seem to care about any of this, they don’t care that Apple’s changes have already made them quickly fall out of favor with Stalkers due to the risks, they also don’t care to even know the actual facts.

Our friend is apparently expressing being fearful of fear. No recalls or legislation can fix that. Given the ample opportunity they had to provide concrete evidence, they’ve instead gone for logical fallacy over logical fallacy in an attempt to make their claim, to wit:

• Casual Fallacy: Apple’s AirTags have increased stalking since we didn’t know about these cases until AirTags were released.
• Appeal to ignorance: Since you can’t prove AirTags are not used to stalk people in any viable number, they must be used to stalk people.
• Slippery Slope: If we don’t ban them, more people will get stalked.
• False Dichotomy: AirTags have the potential in extreme cases to be used to stalk, therefore we must ban them.
• Appeal to pity: How can you defend AirTags knowing that they’ve been used to stalk people?
• Bandwagon: The press say this is a problem, how can it not be a problem?
• No True Scotsman: Stalkers will only stalk with AirTags, so let’s ban them.

And that’s just the one’s off the top of my head.

Stalkers are going to stalk. Banning AirTags will not change any of that. Our friend doesn’t care though. They feel the need to “win” at a game they lost before they started - this thread.

 

[Weaselboy]

Moderator Note:

I don't think we are covering any new ground here. Thread closed.