Is Apple laughing at Pro users?

[philipma1957]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...companies-deal-could-change-tv-112438275.html


how much is this worth? many times what mac pro sales are. apple has no real priority for mac pros. they are looking to cut deals like this.

I would even argue that a mac pro owner would be a negative for the deal above. Having a killer machine in your homes allows for a lot of independence from cable for tv shows. you just get content on the net and have a ton of room for storage etc.

Apple has an anti pro agenda due to the cloud and the above deal. Both are rental deals and kill a consumer value wise. A mac pro (smaller models ) allows a consumer a lot of freedom from renting content. You need the pipe (internet connection) but you can sample store and manipulate what you pump into your home via that pipe. Thus avoiding cloud rental and direct content rental. ie tv shows.

 

[linuxcooldude]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...companies-deal-could-change-tv-112438275.html


how much is this worth? many times what mac pro sales are. apple has no real priority for mac pros. they are looking to cut deals like this.

I would even argue that a mac pro owner would be a negative for the deal above. Having a killer machine in your homes allows for a lot of independence from cable for tv shows. you just get content on the net and have a ton of room for storage etc.

Apple has an anti pro agenda due to the cloud and the above deal. Both are rental deals and kill a consumer value wise. A mac pro (smaller models ) allows a consumer a lot of freedom from renting content. You need the pipe (internet connection) but you can sample store and manipulate what you pump into your home via that pipe. Thus avoiding cloud rental and direct content rental. ie tv shows.

The Mac Pro is not designed for the consumer market and priced too high for the average consumer just to stream content to watch.

The amount of Mac Pro users are very small compared to the rest of their computer line to even make enough of a difference for Apple to be concerned.

 

[deconstruct60]

So tell me why should one pay the same price for old, slower hardware when there are real world performance gains to be had?

You could go ask Dell and HP. They are still selling "last years" workstation models at roughly the same prices. The prices aren't the issue. Having the other slightly and somewhat faster models is.

Furthermore, those graphs are bit deceptive on two points. One is that that each generation has more cores the the previous. That difference is only going to at the top end of the Mac Pro model scale. The absolutely most expensive models will show differences. The entry and mid range models not as much since the core count would likely be the same and the only updates are improved microarchitecture and clock speed (both in and out of Turbo; i.e., the operating average speed will be higher).

The second factor is the horizontal scale. It is measured in seconds. In contexts where application users spend more time thinking about what they are doing then the app takes to execute the task those kinds of gains are margins. If the human is operating on a scale of minutes and the app on the scale of seconds there probably won't be a huge productivity increase.
In particular the "compile" metric. The time programmers spend writing and debugging typically completely swamps compile/build time. If the compiler time is dominating that cycle then probably need a new compiler or a much better data structure and build system design.


That is exactly way there are numerous reports on these forums about folks claiming their 2006 , 2007 , 2008 Mac Pros are "good enough". So for those folks the differences in the graphs are marginal. They are more impacted by more speed in the entry and mid range; not the top end. That is exactly what happened with the June update. In the single package Apple trimmed off the "best" slot and moved the "better" and "best" down. Similarly on the dual package model they moved to a 12 core minimum.

The only submodels that were "left out" of a significant value bump where the top entries in each subfamily.

So it really isn't the same price for the same value.

On yet another dimension, some shops like uniformity and consistency more than closely chasing the bleeding edge. That's one reason why Dell, HP, and others are still selling their "old" models.


It would be a better line up if Apple had newer models with better performance for the mid-top end workstation segments. But it is far from a "F you" line up.

 

[deconstruct60]

how much is this worth? many times what mac pro sales are.

It is not about sales it is about growth. Apple's stock price just hit an all time high again. That is being driven by perceived future growth not by present sales.

The potential of soaking up 5-7% of the entire TV market from a 0% share is huge growth potential . The additional revenue is secondary artifact. It measurably long term growing year over year is the primary factor.

apple has no real priority for mac pros. they are looking to cut deals like this.

The money is fine for Mac Pros. It is far more problematical that the markets the highest end Mac Pro has been typically been targeted to are not expanding.

Apple has an anti pro agenda due to the cloud and the above deal.

There is no "anti pro" agenda at Apple. There is an "anti extremely expense tools" agenda at Apple. That has always been there from day one when Apple was selling fully assembled computers (instead of kits) so that folks could have a personal computer (instead of time sharing or worse on a something that wasn't as affordable ). Apple has always been adverse to Byzantine bureaucracies (whether they be for paperwork or workflow).

Apple will get into $2000-10,000 software package or hardware system markets so they can eventually churn out a product that is far more affordable and far more accessible ( low barriers to entry in the market).

If "pro" means reinforcing high barriers to entry, then yes. Apple is anti pro.

This "pro" versus "consumer" thing is grown into a label of the narrowest of niches rather than anything to do with conducting commerce (versus personal non commercial use) . "Pros" are consumers too. They buy things.
That is the core Mac Pro problem. Buying has dropped off. So Apple doesn't prioritize Mac Pro high ... which is leading to more buying dropping off ... which leads to even lower priorities. It is a farce to label this as just Apple. It takes two to tango.

 

[goMac]

I don't think they're laughing at Pro users as much as they are distracted by mobile users.

There isn't an anti pro agenda at Apple as much as there is just not enough people in the world who are good Mac engineers, and too much work to do.

 

[derbothaus]

Stupid stocks and boards and returns and stuff.

 

[Jack40]

**** Apple

**** off Apple I think mac pro user shoul look for something else than **** apple
I'll buy a thunderbolt motherborboard so so to build a custom mac.

Apple mother****ers!!!!:

 

[deconstruct60]

I don't think they're laughing at Pro users as much as they are distracted by mobile users.

It is not mobile users. It is mobile vendors. Intel's sinking 100's of millions in the Ultrabook campaign.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...ns_of_dollars_into_ultrabook_ad_campaign.html

Apple's laptop line up has shown higher than industry average growth for last 2-3 years. That puts a bullseye on them with competitors. It is not a distraction to work toward staying out in front of your competitors.


Likewise I think the iMac is also under competitive pressure, but is also the major source of desktop growth. Again All-in-ones are one of the few industry growth segments.

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/07/11/all_in_one_desktops_on_the_ascendant/

(although that probably is in part taking growth from other categories and folding it into this new category too). IMHO, the HP Z1 completely out engineers Apple at the higher end of the spectrum. Fortunately for Apple the lower end has hasn't had a major breakout.


The iMac is evidently in for a major overhaul ( hence the substantive delay) and it wouldn't be surprising if it too "stole" limited resources.

There isn't an anti pro agenda at Apple as much as there is just not enough people in the world who are good Mac engineers, and too much work to do.

In part though that is a problem of Apple's own making. It isn't always that there is a lack of good Mac engineers. It is somewhat also the fact that the Mac engineers keep get stolen by other projects.

After the XServe got canceled it should have been the case that Apple could have consolidated the teams that worked on Mac Pro and XServe. ( Not sure they were different but even in that case they should have had more time to work on Mac Pro because their efforts were not split).

Instead from the outside it looks like XServe got cancel and some subset of folks got sent to work on the MBA 11" and other products. Likewise with rMBP 15" (and apparently rMBP 13" ) showing up it appears teams were also raided for those too.

The problem folks have is how come Apple can't walk and chew gum at the same time? It is not like there is a lack of profit margins to support that. Even if restricted just those specifically generated by the Mac Pro there is enough to have 3-4 well paid folks staffed on it all the time. Apple deliberately stays under resourced.

If Apple was 4-6 months late and have dropped a Mac Pro update in Oct-November that would be understaffed issue. The 2013 date looks alot like that there was nobody working on this at all in 2011 and perhaps a couple of months 2012.

 

[goMac]

In part though that is a problem of Apple's own making. It isn't always that there is a lack of good Mac engineers. It is somewhat also the fact that the Mac engineers keep get stolen by other projects.

Except there is a severe lack of Mac/iPhone engineers inside and outside Apple. Obj-C suddenly took off, except because it had been ignored for years there was no one who knew it well.

Apple is trying to hire all the good Mac/iOS engineers they can get their hands on (just like every other company out there) but they can't get them. They just simply don't exist.

Which comes back to the original point. There simply aren't enough engineers to do both Mac and iPhone. But it's not a problem of Apple's doing, Apple is hiring like crazy. It's just a general industry trend. Apple would walk and chew gum at the same time, but there just aren't enough people out there.

It's also why Mac OS X is suffering. The engineers they can find simply aren't as good because they're too new.

 

[Lesser Evets]

LAUGHING! Laughing at YOU. No one else: just you.

Apple has good reasons for stalling with the Pro. Jobs said, somewhere around the iPhone release, that the non-mobile platforms would take a back seat through 2011-12, etc. And they did. No surprise here.

Sure, it's awkward that no TB or USB3 are on the Pro. Yet. They'll get to it. Sometime. We all wish sooner than later, but 2013 is now set as a (semi) promise from Tim Cook's own hand.

We know the general time of the next release. Just wait for it.

 

[deconstruct60]

Except there is a severe lack of Mac/iPhone engineers inside and outside Apple. Obj-C suddenly took off, except because it had been ignored for years there was no one who knew it well.

The Mac Pro hardware doesn't immediately depend upon proprietary Apple constructs like Obj-C. Electronics are electronics. Apple doesn't really make anything that physically goes into the Mac Pro boxes that is remotely unique.

The Mac Pro and other new Mac hardware isn't being held up by upper layers of the OS software stack. The parts of the OS software stack that touch the hardware are most often written in C , some Assembler , and maybe some C++. There are lots of firmware and board designers around the world. Apple doesn't even employ even a minor fraction of those capable.

Intel concurrently did seven E5 motherboards

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/intel_xeon_e5_rompley_motherboards/


They certainly didn't seem to have staffing problem. Supermicro has like another concurrently developed 5-7 variants. ASUS a couple. There are more than a dozen AMD server boards too. Dell and HP have 3-5 designs out the door also. etc. etc. etc. There is no world wide scarity of new E5 board designs. That is only occurring inside the "Infinite Loop".

Apple is trying to hire all the good Mac/iOS engineers they ... They just simply don't exist.

That actually might be part of the problem. Instead of just trying to find good OS kernel , driver , and hardware folks they are out looking for the much smaller subset of those folks who have those skills and high level OS X level experience. Not just people who work under the abstraction barrier but those who have worked both sides. That's rather foolish if they are running understaffed. That's in the "nice to have" category not the must have one.

It's also why Mac OS X is suffering. The engineers they can find simply aren't as good because they're too new.

I suspect it is much more the case that those with experience are quitting or transferring at a higher rate than they can replace. Apple is going to have tons of problems holding onto low level OS folks when the vast majority of praise and treasure is shipped off to level higher level OS and bundled applications. Throw on top of the longer term employees that now have stock and/or options worth hundred of thousands and they start looking for other jobs where they are more appreciated.

Apple is loosing folks with experience before they can do transfers to the new folks coming in. Every company has turn over. There is a problem when the turn over churn rate is high enough that knowledge transfer get inhibited. Typically that is a problem for several years before significant adverse symptoms start to show up in products and deadlines.

That is more the case of there aren't enough good people out there to piss away the good people you already had.

 

[goMac]

The Mac Pro hardware doesn't immediately depend upon proprietary Apple constructs like Obj-C.

Sure it does. You got drivers and software.

NVidia, ATI, and Intel can build hardware components but they're not going to do much of anything without software.

There simply aren't any more "good OS kernel , driver , and hardware folks." Trust me, they're all hired up. The hiring market is insane right now. If Apple could hire them, they would in a heartbeat. Apple is even having trouble keeping the ones they have due to counter offers and headhunting. And that's not just pro division, that's across the board.

Apple is so desperate they're basically putting anyone who knows how to use a keyboard and a mouse onto the OS X team, which is why OS X quality is suffering.

 

[m1kygarcia]

Sure it does. You got drivers and software.

NVidia, ATI, and Intel can build hardware components but they're not going to do much of anything without software.

There simply aren't any more "good OS kernel , driver , and hardware folks." Trust me, they're all hired up. The hiring market is insane right now. If Apple could hire them, they would in a heartbeat. Apple is even having trouble keeping the ones they have due to counter offers and headhunting. And that's not just pro division, that's across the board.

Apple is so desperate they're basically putting anyone who knows how to use a keyboard and a mouse onto the OS X team, which is why OS X quality is suffering.

I think you are looking this situation with different approach. I believe apple is cannibalizing his own market, is pretty common practice for them.
You see, they are realizing that selling hole products are better in term of user experience and profit (aka iPhone, iPad, iMac and particularly with the retina MacBook Pro with everything integrated in the motherboard.)
And kept producing high end products the way they are doing now is not that profitable anymore.
I think either they wil come up with something that is going to be jaw dropping or once and for all stop producing Mac Pros

 

[golf1410]

Apple, Inc.

Catering to the rich and general consumer. What's a professional?


Seriously, just look at the new Retina MBP's. Everything soldered in (blade SSD), hardly upgradable. They want you to buy a machine every 1-2 years instead of upgrading and making your INVESTMENT last.

Agree

 

[goMac]

I think you are looking this situation with different approach. I believe apple is cannibalizing his own market, is pretty common practice for them.
You see, they are realizing that selling hole products are better in term of user experience and profit (aka iPhone, iPad, iMac and particularly with the retina MacBook Pro with everything integrated in the motherboard.)
And kept producing high end products the way they are doing now is not that profitable anymore.
I think either they wil come up with something that is going to be jaw dropping or once and for all stop producing Mac Pros

I'm not sure I buy that either.

The non upgradable RAM is kind of a non issue. The chipset maxes out at 16 gigs of RAM, and the 16 gig upgrade is dirt cheap. If RAM is an issue, the user can just max it out for cheap at purchase time. I think Apple is aware of this, which is why the RAM upgrade is much cheaper than Apple's usual prices.

Storage is a concern... But while the storage in the Macbook Pro is not user upgradable, it is removable.

It's also hardly the first pro machine without upgradable storage. Other pro laptops Apple made without user upgradable storage:
2007 Macbook Pro
2006 Macbook Pro
2005 Macbook Pro
2005 Powerbook G4 17"
2004 Powerbook G4 15"
2004 Powerbook G4 12"
2004 Powerbook G4 17"
2003 Powerbook G4 15"
2003 Powerbook G4 12"
2003 Powerbook G4 17"

I'll go ahead and call the Titanium Powerbooks user replaceable even though they were difficult.

So as far as the "ZOMG Apple is getting rid of user replaceable storage thing on Pro laptops!" they've been doing it for years.

But again, the Retina Macbook Pro storage isn't soldered, so in theory it can be replaced. I'd expect to see third party upgrades, but it would be nice if Apple would release the specs of the slot.

If Apple didn't want people doing user replaceable parts anymore, they wouldn't be selling the "classic" unibody Macbook Pro. And that doesn't change that the unibody Macbook Pro was one of only a few Apple pro laptops that ever had user replaceable storage.

I don't know what they'll do with the Mac Pros. But I don't see them cutting user replaceable parts out of that strategy. The laptops have been going back and forth for years and it never really impacted the pro tower line.

 

[derbothaus]

^^^ You can upgrade any of those. You need a screwdriver and/or Torx. You won't and wouldn't have voided your warranty. I do it and did it all the time. If you break something while doing it then it is not covered. Like clips, brackets, stripped screws, etc. The fact that on top of it all those models used standard 2.5" disk's only further changes the argument. Apple now has further complicated things using their own socket that only OWC would be trying to emulate. No one else most likely will.
Also Memory for rMBP is not dirt cheap. A fresh full 16GB DIMM kit is around 100.00. Apple charges 200.00 + the cost inherited in the price of the Book. Cheaper than what they have charged in the past but only because they know it is your only option and they can't look like complete thieves.

 

[deconstruct60]

Sure it does. You got drivers and software.

Why would anyone write drivers in Obj-C instead of C? EFI is not built around Obj C. Neither are a low level block or interrupt driven devices.

NVidia, ATI, and Intel can build hardware components but they're not going to do much of anything without software.

Nice move the goal posts. It wasn't about lack of software in the solution. It was about proprietary Apple tool skills (e.g, Obj-C ) being the primary driver to lack of candidates.

Apple is even having trouble keeping the ones they have due to counter offers and headhunting. And that's not just pro division, that's across the board.

A company with $100B burning a hole in their pocket is having problems keeping people due to inadequate compensation and benefits. And that isn't "Apple's problem". That is something outside their control? Keep drinking that kool-aid. It is not.

Not saying they need to hand over massive payoffs but making 29% margins instead of 30% margins isn't going to be the end of the world. 1% into medium-long term human resources development has been lacking.


A huge portion of that is Apple's own making. From there anticompetive "no headhunting" policies they worked out with other tech firms. Underfunded, under resourced Human Resources development ( broader, more diverse set of summer interns, scholarships , tech track development , etc. )

For example look at the list of schools here (at least the US version of this page ):

http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/students-degree.html

In the drop down list of schools they are going to visit, there is a list of 32 schools (there are double entries that will deal with in a moment). 15 of them are MBA factories!!! (for a decent number of the MBA factories they don't even talk to the other departments. For some probably would make sense to aim a specific school's specialties. Likely not going to find many hard core kernel folks at Harvard end of Massachusetts Ave. ). However, that makes for almost 50% of places looking have practically no coders. So the cries of "I can't find any" are extremely lame.

Apple is so desperate they're basically putting anyone who knows how to use a keyboard and a mouse onto the OS X team, which is why OS X quality is suffering.

I quickly scanned several pages of the job listings on Apple's site and none of them fall that low. In stark contrast to internal IT and iOS specific development, the listings for positions heavily weighted toward low level OS X work is relatively very small. There is a firmware gap ( no Obj C necessary and lends support to Apple's snails pace of new hardware releases ) and some core framework libraries gaps (where Obj C was largely optional in the C/C++ based libraries. )

From the listings it looks far more like iOS is likely sucking developers out of other areas and has the higher than average churn rate. Trying to keep that back filled is likely causing problems in other silos.

 

[Schismz]

Stupid stocks and boards and returns and stuff.

Damn them all! If only Apple would stop playing with mobile and release a new Mac Pro already, so 47 of the 192 people who like to rant in the Mac Pro MacRumors forum would go buy a new one! That'd change their minds!

Oh, no, wait. I'm rich due to iCrap and AAPL shares, nevermind, as you were.

Just ... as a reality check. A lot of this thread is pretty silly, to paraphrase, "there's no new Mac Pro because Apple just doesn't have enough engineers! There are only 12 people on Earth who know how to program in Objective-C and 9 of them have retired by cashing out!" is, well, not true. "The design was so complicated, and depended on chips from Intel which they couldn't deliver, so it was shelved until 2013!" is also bogus, the Mac Pro is a bunch of mostly standard parts, slammed into a 100lb bulletproof aluminum tower of sh1ny heavy metal; it requires the absolute least amount of R&D of anything Apple sells, because very little that's inside is some proprietary Apple design. The expensive part is support, "WHY does the system crash, when I install card <a>,<b>,<c> and try to run app, <x>,<y>,<z>!?!?!!" that's a good question, obviously, the problem is you need a new iMac!

I'm not saying there's no truth in the concept, I have about a dozen friends who are AAPL millionaires, and it'd be fair to say that more than half of 'em retire and conclude they don't need the stress levels anymore, but there are many people who enjoy what they're doing and keep on chugging along.

There's no new Mac Pro because Apple just couldn't be bothered to kick an update out the door. They don't care; their best engineers from 2002 phoned in an update. They do kinda care in the sense that there is nothing suitable to replace the Mac Pro with and they don't want to exit that market altogether yet, but honestly ... it's worth about a nickel to Apple in the grand scheme of things. That dude who linked the mythical Apple TV blurbs hit it about dead center.

I do honestly believe that they will continue with some kind of high-end desktop, because a lot of the content creators for all the content the iCrap devices consume, are all using Mac Pros. Most of the iCrap itself for that matter is designed on Mac Pros. Most of the OS and software is also made on <wait for it> Mac Pros.

I dunno, I like the Mac Pro, I utilize it for work, our shop has a total of 6 Mac Pros, everything else switched to Linux & Windoze years ago. And, I've made more money by being a shareholder in AAPL then in all the projects I've ever worked on in my whole life, and what's important to Pro Users and what drives up the share price, has almost nothing whatsoever in common. And the thing is, AAPL shares are still priced very low, the P/E is ridiculously low, it's not based upon wishful thinking and Wall St., it's based on Apple selling an insane avalanche of the iCrap to every other human being on the planet who isn't dirt poor.

Being pragmatic, at the end of the day I'll take the cash, and "limp along" with my 12-core which is running just fine, and hope for the best in 2013/2014. A lot of what Apple is doing these days annoys me as a pro user, but when that's balanced by boatloads of cash as the stock continues to climb, I honestly find that I just don't care anymore, I'll take the money, and stop worrying about computer, thanks! I'd much rather that every teenager in a first world-country needed an iPhone for each hand, then Pro Users being happy, the latter doesn't contribute much to my bottom line anymore. And yes, eventually this will negatively impact Apple and their share price in the long run, but hey, I'll be fully cashed out by then and onto newer golden unicorns. Apple, it was a great company, it made me a lot of money, also, they used to make computers before morphing into Apple, Inc. 'member computers? Bahahahahahahah.

tl;dr- Apple pisses me off as a pro user and it makes me ridiculously happy as a shareholder. I can live with that pretty easily.

Well hey, this post is getting long, gotta go play the new Angry Birds levels on my iPhone.

 

[G4DP]

Unless you have the cash in hand from those stocks, they mean nothing. Yes the figures look great, but only count if you cash them in at the right time.

I wouldn't wish anyone bad luck that has invested, but some people are going to get hurt. This run of luck will end. The prices cannot continue to grow as much as they have over the last 10 years.

 

[dmax35]

My good friend works within Apple's workstation group after his career working at SGI.

He assures me Apple is not giving up on the so called pro workstation crowd, he did mention in the past, Apple was focused it's majority of engineering resources towards the mobile computing market, and did say Mr.Cook is committed towards the 2013 Mac pro lines. My friend is very tight lipped and respects is job too much to give any hints and when asked, his reply is STAY TUNED!

 

[Topper]

he did mention in the past, Apple was focused it's majority of engineering resources towards the mobile computing market.

It's a shame that Apple doesn't have enough money to work for the "pro workstation crowd" at the same time.
It's going to take three years to bring out a Mac Pro?! I am guessing your friend is the only one working in Apple's workstation group.

 

[goMac]

^^^ You can upgrade any of those. You need a screwdriver and/or Torx.

Same on the Retina Macbook Pro. If you pop off the bottom of the Retina Macbook Pro the drive is in a blade style slot and can be removed and replaced.

The only issue, as I mentioned before, is the availability of the blade SSDs.

Edit: OWC already has Retina MBP drive upgrades available. http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/OWC/Aura_Pro_Retina_2012

You won't and wouldn't have voided your warranty.

Nope.

On those machines AppleCare does NOT consider the hard drive user serviceable, and your warranty is void if you swap the drive. I worked as an AppleCare tech for a while.

Here is one thread for example:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/530431?start=0&tstart=0

The unibody Macbook Pro was the first to return to a user serviceable hard drive.

As far as Apple's lack of engineers, all I know is what I'm hearing. Apple does not have enough engineers, either in low level or high level, and they simply don't exist to be hired. Mac specific or not. Even removing Obj-C as the gating factor, there aren't exactly many C engineers on the job market either.

Also drivers are written at NVidia and ATi, not Apple, so you won't find GPU driver job listings there.

 

[derbothaus]

Nope.

On those machines AppleCare does NOT consider the hard drive user serviceable, and your warranty is void if you swap the drive. I worked as an AppleCare tech for a while.

Here is one thread for example:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/530431?start=0&tstart=0

The unibody Macbook Pro was the first to return to a user serviceable hard drive.

I was certified for years and was a genius in 2003 (short stint) and still work as a network liaison to many independent Apple certified support locations. I will have to find actual info on this as I don't feel like we need to get in a "Yes, so", "No way" argument. It'll never end
I don't think Apple really has any concise answer as some docs say no and all the people I come into contact with say yes, you can.
It is murky at best and my situation is probably very different from info given to most users.
Here is an official manual on how to do a 17" MBP:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/MacBook_Pro_17inch_Mid2010_Hard_Drive_DIY.pdf
More clarification here from another manual:
"Apple recommends that you have an Apple-certified technician install replacement drives and memory. Consult the service and support information that came with your computer for information about how to contact Apple for service. If you attempt to install a replacement drive or memory and damage your equipment, such damage is not covered by the limited warranty on your computer."
They "recommend" and any damage incurred will not be covered. The entire Mac does not get warranty voided.
Anyway. I can do it. I may be a special case and I probably shouldn't just blankly say it is appropriate as I am in a somewhat privileged circumstance.

 

[goMac]

I was certified for years and was a genius in 2003 (short stint) and still work as a network liaison to many independent Apple certified support locations. I will have to find actual info on this as I don't feel like we need to get in a "Yes, so", "No way" argument. It'll never end
I don't think Apple really has any concise answer as some docs say no and all the people I come into contact with say yes, you can.
It is murky at best and my situation is probably very different from info given to most users.
Here is an official manual on how to do a 17" MBP:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/MacBook_Pro_17inch_Mid2010_Hard_Drive_DIY.pdf
More clarification here from another manual:
"Apple recommends that you have an Apple-certified technician install replacement drives and memory. Consult the service and support information that came with your computer for information about how to contact Apple for service. If you attempt to install a replacement drive or memory and damage your equipment, such damage is not covered by the limited warranty on your computer."
They "recommend" and any damage incurred will not be covered. The entire Mac does not get warranty voided.
Anyway. I can do it. I may be a special case and I probably shouldn't just blankly say it is appropriate as I am in a somewhat privileged circumstance.

Right, you're linking to a DIY on a unibody, which as I mentioned, was the first line to reinstate the user serviceable drive.

Again, earlier Macbook Pros did not have a "user serviceable" drive, only memory. If you look at the manual for the Macbook Pro, you'll notice while RAM upgrades are mentioned, hard drive upgrades are not:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/macbook_pro_users_guide.pdf

Unibodies and higher mention both how to upgrade the drive and the RAM.

I remember at the time it was bizarre because the vanilla Macbook had a user serviceable drive but the pro did not.

Another thread from Macrumors on the topic:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/310362/

 

[derbothaus]

...

I have replaced HD's in these models and then got AC support coverage. So whether it is "user serviceable" or not is a non issue apparently. Apple has never enforced what you think they would/should/can enforce. I deal with them on a weekly if not daily basis. Not really those models anymore though.