Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Perhaps the statement results from an extensive software investment?

I'm familiar with single professional applications that out-cost the computer (let alone multiples), so switching back may not be viable for financial reasons alone (ignoring any technical, or user experience issues that could be relevant for users). It would depend on specifics though, as pricing can vary wildly (I'm used to ~$500 - $10k USD for single applications/suites; quite a variance :eek: :p).

I appreciate your expertise and ability to understand an individuals point of view which seems pretty consistent in your posts. Nice combination. Thank you for both.
 
I could switch to sony cameras tomorrow & shoot a job with it tomorrow night. Switching from FC & Logic to other programs would not be so simple, plus changing all my hardware & programs, if you think about it is a far more unreasonable request than just say... adding eSATA to an imac.
You have an opinion and I respect that. I'm also happy for you that you are satisfied with your choices. An opinion becomes much more productive if you can understand and appreciate another's stand. Hostage? I'm no hostage. To suggest that I should shut up and accept either a Rolls Royce or a Kia, does not serve anyone. Least of all :apple:. I've turned dozens of people to :apple:, but in truth I don't see much reason to do that any more.

Pros are always expressing what they want in their hardware and that is the impetuous for innovation.

Fervently supporting :apple: when they could rather easily be doing better, is only supporting mediocrity IMO

There is something bizarre about the users in this forum. It's almost as if many users believe Apple is monitoring posts here and making decisions based on what we post. I feel like I'm getting the message that... "if you're happy, great, but shut up because we don't want Apple to think that all is well".

This forum is unlike any other enthusiast forum I belong to. So much whining about the price and the company. I don't see this on the BMW or Canon forums where value is also highly subjective (Canon L lenses are priced out of this world). Apple products are some of the best I own... right up there with BMW cars and Canon cameras.

Apple has offered a premium product and experience at a premium price forever. While the relative value of the Mac Pro has fluctuated over the years, and perhaps 2009 is not the best value ever, Macs, and the Mac Pro have always been a premium product at a premium price point. The Mac Pro is aimed directly at the true professional who makes a living from working with pro apps and needs expansion and maximum computing power. It's not marketed at enthusiasts or gamers or students, yet most of the people on here seem to be in these groups. Perhaps that explains all the whining?

You can't tell me you didn't know what you were getting into when you made a sizeable investment in Apple's software. Why are you so sour on the experience now? What has changed? In my mind, Apple has more awesome products to choose from than it has ever had in it's life.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to be a real ass about all of this. I do respect everyone's opinion... I just find the level of negativity to be overbearing some days. I probably need to take a break from this forum.
 
To be honest, if apple were to ever cut off its mac pro line, i think I would seriously consider getting a custom built computer and turning it into a hackintosh

Why bother?
If they dump their pro workstations, you can bet that they'll also dump their pro apps.
I wouldn't trust them to support their pro apps in that case.
Apple is degenerating into an overpriced toy company.
I went to mac from windows just to use FCP.
I would return to windows if they abandon any element of the pro line since it would be throwing money down the drain to invest in any further versions of their pro apps.
 
There is something bizarre about the users in this forum. It's almost as if many users believe Apple is monitoring posts here and making decisions based on what we post. I feel like I'm getting the message that... "if you're happy, great, but shut up because we don't want Apple to think that all is well".

This forum is unlike any other enthusiast forum I belong to. So much whining about the price and the company. I don't see this on the BMW or Canon forums where value is also highly subjective (Canon L lenses are priced out of this world). Apple products are some of the best I own... right up there with BMW cars and Canon cameras.

Apple has offered a premium product and experience at a premium price forever. While the relative value of the Mac Pro has fluctuated over the years, and perhaps 2009 is not the best value ever, Macs, and the Mac Pro have always been a premium product at a premium price point. The Mac Pro is aimed directly at the true professional who makes a living from working with pro apps and needs expansion and maximum computing power. It's not marketed at enthusiasts or gamers or students, yet most of the people on here seem to be in these groups. Perhaps that explains all the whining?

You can't tell me you didn't know what you were getting into when you made a sizeable investment in Apple's software. Why are you so sour on the experience now? What has changed? In my mind, Apple has more awesome products to choose from than it has ever had in it's life.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to be a real ass about all of this. I do respect everyone's opinion... I just find the level of negativity to be overbearing some days. I probably need to take a break from this forum.

Sorry- but it's a lot of us professionals who are angry. I need a tower. I don't want to pay $3,000 for one though, especially when it's not necessary, Apple merely decides for us. I was more than happy to pay $2,000 for one, even though I thought that was kind of high too. I've been using Macs since the IIe, and the pricing and offerings are getting ridiculous. There is no reason in the world Apple can't offer a mid range tower, and these days in this economy, they should. Businesses are cutting back and looking to trim costs, including the media business. Don;t think for one second that businesses won't leave Apple for Windows if that ends up being a less expensive way to them to stay up to date.
 
Sorry- but it's a lot of us professionals who are angry. I need a tower. I don't want to pay $3,000 for one though, especially when it's not necessary, Apple merely decides for us. I was more than happy to pay $2,000 for one, even though I thought that was kind of high too. I've been using Macs since the IIe, and the pricing and offerings are getting ridiculous. There is no reason in the world Apple can't offer a mid range tower, and these days in this economy, they should. Businesses are cutting back and looking to trim costs, including the media business. Don;t think for one second that businesses won't leave Apple for Windows if that ends up being a less expensive way to them to stay up to date.

I agree with this statement.

If Apple does not make this by the time I am ready to upgrade in a few years I will see what the other side has to offer. I do not need to pay for stuff that I do not need (much higher spec componenets) - or be forced to buy deliberate ram crippled towers as their only offering for the entry level MPs and still be too expensive for my needs. The thought of a glassy only iMac of where the Mid Tower could be - less the price of the screen makes me see red. You know it is a deliberate intention of making you spend more money. I almost want to leave because of that sort of corporate fascism.

I feel I am held hostage by my sizable investment in software and time investment of using their OS. I am happy with what I have now and what it can do - but when the time comes to reconsider my upgrade options, Apple needs to be mindful of what things cost to their customers.

Last year I was on the fence about what to get to upgrade from my G4 tower. It would have been a stretch to get an iMac, and I would have - but then the Ram had too few slots, and the screens went glassy - and an all-in-one is so limiting over time. I took a step back and bought a used G5 and made sure I bought all the software I needed then because everything would go Intel.

So Apple lost out on a Mid Tower that they could have sold me. If they cut back on their pro users you know the writing is on the wall. Years ago Corel made Corel Draw for Mac and then dropped it. It wasn't worth it to them to keep supporting. At some point if Apple doesn't give its pro users value for performance and they leave, the major software companies will stop writing for Mac. Then it will not be a platform worth buying. We'll see.

You can never underestimate the human capacity to make bad decisions when blinded by short term thinking.

Mike
 
I agree with this statement.

If Apple does not make this by the time I am ready to upgrade in a few years I will see what the other side has to offer. I do not need to pay for stuff that I do not need (much higher spec componenets) - or be forced to buy deliberate ram crippled towers as their only offering for the entry level MPs and still be too expensive for my needs. The thought of a glassy only iMac of where the Mid Tower could be - less the price of the screen makes me see red. You know it is a deliberate intention of making you spend more money. I almost want to leave because of that sort of corporate fascism.

I feel I am held hostage by my sizable investment in software and time investment of using their OS. I am happy with what I have now and what it can do - but when the time comes to reconsider my upgrade options, Apple needs to be mindful of what things cost to their customers.

Last year I was on the fence about what to get to upgrade from my G4 tower. It would have been a stretch to get an iMac, and I would have - but then the Ram had too few slots, and the screens went glassy - and an all-in-one is so limiting over time. I took a step back and bought a used G5 and made sure I bought all the software I needed then because everything would go Intel.

So Apple lost out on a Mid Tower that they could have sold me. If they cut back on their pro users you know the writing is on the wall. Years ago Corel made Corel Draw for Mac and then dropped it. It wasn't worth it to them to keep supporting. At some point if Apple doesn't give its pro users value for performance and they leave, the major software companies will stop writing for Mac. Then it will not be a platform worth buying. We'll see.

You can never underestimate the human capacity to make bad decisions when blinded by short term thinking.

Mike

Exactly. The accounting side of business cares about one thing- cost-effectiveness. If buying Macs for their business is no longer cost effective, they will switch at some point, believe me.
 
There is something bizarre about the users in this forum. It's almost as if many users believe Apple is monitoring posts here and making decisions based on what we post. I feel like I'm getting the message that... "if you're happy, great, but shut up because we don't want Apple to think that all is well".

This forum is unlike any other enthusiast forum I belong to. So much whining about the price and the company. I don't see this on the BMW or Canon forums where value is also highly subjective (Canon L lenses are priced out of this world). Apple products are some of the best I own... right up there with BMW cars and Canon cameras.

Apple has offered a premium product and experience at a premium price forever. While the relative value of the Mac Pro has fluctuated over the years, and perhaps 2009 is not the best value ever, Macs, and the Mac Pro have always been a premium product at a premium price point. The Mac Pro is aimed directly at the true professional who makes a living from working with pro apps and needs expansion and maximum computing power. It's not marketed at enthusiasts or gamers or students, yet most of the people on here seem to be in these groups. Perhaps that explains all the whining?

You can't tell me you didn't know what you were getting into when you made a sizeable investment in Apple's software. Why are you so sour on the experience now? What has changed? In my mind, Apple has more awesome products to choose from than it has ever had in it's life.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to be a real ass about all of this. I do respect everyone's opinion... I just find the level of negativity to be overbearing some days. I probably need to take a break from this forum.

Just a few years ago the majority of mac owners that I knew were passionate about their macs like you are, myself included. That sentiment has been slipping among pros pretty substantially over the last couple of years. For instance my 07 MBP has FW400, FW800 and an express slot, now there's just the FW800. :apple: used to be much more interested in giving their pros more in their comps, now the trend is to less. If you were to just honestly ask yourself if these people have a legitimate grip, you'd see that they are not just whiners. A lot of us professionals have a legitimate grip with 10-20 year investments and have concerns about what :apple: is doing in regards to their professionals, hence the title of this thread.

As far as :apple: listening in on this thread, this is more of a growing sentiment among many of :apple: long term pros, :apple: knows what's going on, and the more it is vocalized, the better chance we have of them responding. There may be some whiners, but most are just concerned and dissatisfied in a company that we used to hold in such high regard and that held us in high regard.
 
Just a few years ago the majority of mac owners that I knew were passionate about their macs like you are, myself included. That sentiment has been slipping among pros pretty substantially over the last couple of years. For instance my 07 MBP has FW400, FW800 and an express slot, now there's just the FW800. :apple: used to be much more interested in giving their pros more in their comps, now the trend is to less. If you were to just honestly ask yourself if these people have a legitimate grip, you'd see that they are not just whiners. A lot of us professionals have a legitimate grip with 10-20 year investments and have concerns about what :apple: is doing in regards to their professionals, hence the title of this thread.

As far as :apple: listening in on this thread, this is more of a growing sentiment among many of :apple: long term pros, :apple: knows what's going on, and the more it is vocalized, the better chance we have of them responding. There may be some whiners, but most are just concerned and dissatisfied in a company that we used to hold in such high regard and that held us in high regard.

I seem to hear this more and more at work too. It's not whining, it's a legitimate question that more pros are asking themselves.
 
...Thank you for both.
:cool: NP. :)

Apple has offered a premium product and experience at a premium price...
In the past, many would have agreed with this statement, but the most recent occurances has shown that this is no longer the case, and the complaints are relevant/valid. :(

You've seen the various posts that have evidence to back it up, not just rants.

You can never underestimate the human capacity to make bad decisions when blinded by short term thinking.
Unfortunately, a very valid point, and short term seems rampant these days.

Exactly. The accounting side of business cares about one thing- cost-effectiveness. If buying Macs for their business is no longer cost effective, they will switch at some point, believe me.
Absolutely true in my experience.
 
The MacBook Pro has gone from being a serious professional tool to a fashion accessory for English majors :mad: The fact that they make them super-glossy by default and then charge for anti-glare just says it all.

As for the Mac Pro, I think that you need to keep in mind that not everybody is a photographer or video editor. Many people need serious power for scientific, financial, etc. applications, combined with the reliable hardware and robust software of a Mac. It's just that the performance hasn't kept up, and the alternatives keep getting better while Apple focuses on wowing the consumer space with shiny objects.

Personally, I think it will backfire. Pros who were passionate about Macs sustained the company in its near-death years. Consumers are fickle and will chase the next hot thing as soon as it comes along.
 
There is something bizarre about the users in this forum. It's almost as if many users believe Apple is monitoring posts here and making decisions based on what we post. I feel like I'm getting the message that... "if you're happy, great, but shut up because we don't want Apple to think that all is well".

This forum is unlike any other enthusiast forum I belong to. So much whining about the price and the company. I don't see this on the BMW or Canon forums where value is also highly subjective (Canon L lenses are priced out of this world). Apple products are some of the best I own... right up there with BMW cars and Canon cameras.

Apple has offered a premium product and experience at a premium price forever. While the relative value of the Mac Pro has fluctuated over the years, and perhaps 2009 is not the best value ever, Macs, and the Mac Pro have always been a premium product at a premium price point. The Mac Pro is aimed directly at the true professional who makes a living from working with pro apps and needs expansion and maximum computing power. It's not marketed at enthusiasts or gamers or students, yet most of the people on here seem to be in these groups. Perhaps that explains all the whining?

You can't tell me you didn't know what you were getting into when you made a sizeable investment in Apple's software. Why are you so sour on the experience now? What has changed? In my mind, Apple has more awesome products to choose from than it has ever had in it's life.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to be a real ass about all of this. I do respect everyone's opinion... I just find the level of negativity to be overbearing some days. I probably need to take a break from this forum.

But the Mac Pros are not really premium products. The quad's don't even stand up to basic X58 based boards (four ram slots on a triple channel board?! No esata? It's a total screw job). That's the issue now that many knowledgeable Apple fans are facing. None of the products are premium whatsover, they just have premium prices. Now you can argue the Macbook Pro cases are "premium" but...that's really not a big deal given they are about as reliable as a PC laptop, and less so in some comparisons.

People voice discontent on this forum because there is a lot to be discontent about.

P.S. BMW's are pretty well known for being unreliable cars that are frequently in the shop. Hmm....Maybe the comparison is pretty apt after all. ;)
 
I hear the complaints and there's no denying the level of discontent. I can understand the lack of focus Apple has had on pro apps lately with releases becoming less frequent and more meagre - that's definitely concerning. However, when it comes to the Mac Pro, the complaints here seem to be a collection of relatively petty issues that can be solved very reasonably or are unfounded...
- eSata (put in a $50 card)
- FW400 (buy a cable)
- RAM slots ("settle" for 8GB, buy 4GB sticks, an 8 core, or a 2008)
- Graphics cards (???)
- Poor performance (???)
- Paying for more than I need (???)

??? = I don't understand how this can be an issue

As for the price of the Mac Pro, $2500-$3000 for a 3-5 year investment for a business or someone who's making money with their machine seams reasonable to me compared to the cost of other professional tools (video camera's, photography equipment, music production gear, etc.).

To help make things easier, there's tax write-offs to be had for businesses on the depreciation and there's always the option to buy refurbished or even used Mac Pro's. Also the resale value of Mac Pro's holds up MUCH better than any PC.

I don't think I'm blinded by fanboism but I just don't see a lot to be down about really. OSX, Apple's pro apps, and the Mac Pro are still an unbeatable combo in my opinion... What am I missing here?
 
I hear the complaints and there's no denying the level of discontent. I can understand the lack of focus Apple has had on pro apps lately with releases becoming less frequent and more meagre - that's definitely concerning. However, when it comes to the Mac Pro, the complaints here seem to be a collection of relatively petty issues that can be solved very reasonably or are unfounded...
- eSata (put in a $50 card)
- FW400 (buy a cable)
- RAM slots ("settle" for 8GB, buy 4GB sticks, an 8 core, or a 2008)
- Graphics cards (???)
- Poor performance (???)
- Paying for more than I need (???)

??? = I don't understand how this can be an issue

As for the price of the Mac Pro, $2500-$3000 for a 3-5 year investment for a business or someone who's making money with their machine seams reasonable to me compared to the cost of other professional tools (video camera's, photography equipment, music production gear, etc.).

To help make things easier, there's tax write-offs to be had for businesses on the depreciation and there's always the option to buy refurbished or even used Mac Pro's. Also the resale value of Mac Pro's holds up MUCH better than any PC.

I don't think I'm blinded by fanboism but I just don't see a lot to be down about really. OSX, Apple's pro apps, and the Mac Pro are still an unbeatable combo in my opinion... What am I missing here?

Well let me address some of the things you posted. First off, why on earth should anyone spend 50 dollars to take up a pci card with an esata slot, when this is pretty much standard PC equipment? This is not a luxury item. On most 3rd party motherboards this is as common as usb. Leaving it off is basically Apple telling it's customers they think they are idiots.

The firewire thing is minor, but still kind of odd. But if they want to leave only ONE port on there I guess 800 is better than 400, even though 800 devices are very rare. But still, the cables are cheap so not a big deal for me at least.

RAM slots are a biggie. I think telling people to buy older hardware to more easily stay current with RAM needs is a huge huge tell. Just think about it for a bit. Why should anyone buy a more expensive machine for less (and artificially gimped) capability? It borders on "morally wrong" on Apple's part. There is no reason for the quad 09 boards being the way they are other than Apple wants you to go to the dual proc machines. But aren't those 4x4 even? All of these boards should have six ram slots for each CPU. Anything less is basically thievery. Buying 4gb sticks is no solution, the price premium for these is massive. It is simply not a viable solution for most, outside of pro houses that can afford to flush money.

Graphics cards choices on Mac are just way too expensive, and not much choice. They are basically way behind the times. Sure that market is driven by games a lot, but I find it ironic that a board that was so hyped over open CL, when that sorta thing already existed on Windows, and could be USED on Windows, still defends Apple for basically screwing customers in the graphics department. For video editing and processing, 3D work, and games (yes, it's ok to want one for games even though that is not personally my thing) the graphics matter, period. Why should the choice not exist when it is such a very simple simple thing? It's the fact that Apple is basically actively STOPPING their customers from being able to use the best of what is out there that is irksome. Why do they do this? Why are the choices that are there so ridiculously overpriced?

Poor performance...my guess on this one is how buggy and slow OSX has gotten with Snow Leopard, especially when that was supposed to be a clean up and improve job. SL is by far my least favorite release (I jumped in at Tiger FYI). In fact, I'm starting to hate how limiting OSX feels. It's a necessary evil for me at this point, though it is very pretty. But for actual work it's kinda ...meh.

Paying more than what you need too...I imagine this is along the long of a 2500 dollar mac pro being less capable and pretty much crushed by an X58 based PC in the 1000-1500 dollar range. Seriously, you can smoke the thing, and with Windows 7 being pretty outstanding in so many ways, where is the advantage unless you are absolutely tied to certain software? There really isn't any at all. If you're getting viruses, or hacked on Windows in this day and age you are pretty much a complete idiot or should stop going to porn sites. It's all marketing FUD and idiot users that perpetuate the ideas that Windows is a kludgy malware fest. It's faster than OSX now based on my experience. And much more capable, by a significant margin.

Obviously everyone has different needs and will perceive things differently as well. That's fine, and it's quite alright if one person prefers OSX to Windows 7 and vice versa. I certainly understand both viewpoint as I am in the (what seems to be) unique position of liking and owning both platforms. That comes from not wrapping up my ego in my purchases. Most of the people who bash Windows are usually not too smart based on my personal experience (not a blanket statement, and hey I could be wrong). I even remember watching an Apple documentary where some very large man was saying how his Windows friends enjoy how complex(?) it is. Obviously there is a subset of strong Apple followers who revel in the fact that OSX is quite limiting. To them that is freedom. Not needing to know much of anything about the machines they use. That's fine, not everyone is computer inclined. For those types I can see how an iPad would be great. Maybe Apple will make a killing on those devices.

But for millions of users, Apple is just taking this stuff down the wrong path. They are regressing. I for one don't want dumb terminals that have to connect to a "mainframe" to run things. That's all this cloud talk really is, and it's certainly not what I want personally. I'm all for more networking, but I'm not for returning to an era that existed before I was even born!

Bottom line, Apple is giving us less for more, trying to seize as much control over users as possible and are being quite blatant about it. Some people see it, some people don't. Some people like it, I would say more don't, which is why their real global marketshare is at 4% or so. Think about it. That 4% used to be the creators. The musicians, the film editors, the photographers. These are the people Apple are basically directly abandoning, and instead focusing on what are essentially toys. A current iPhone, or an iPad is gonna be a crap device in 2-3 years. The film, or the music, or the photographs I make on my hardware will be timeless. Art lives on, consumerism based on devices can disappear overnight. Who is Apple supporting? These old men that run the company simply want to make a buck so they can do who knows what with the money.

Wow, how is that for a long post with an overly dramatic finish? :)
 
I hear the complaints and there's no denying the level of discontent. I can understand the lack of focus Apple has had on pro apps lately with releases becoming less frequent and more meagre - that's definitely concerning. However, when it comes to the Mac Pro, the complaints here seem to be a collection of relatively petty issues that can be solved very reasonably or are unfounded...
- eSata (put in a $50 card)
- FW400 (buy a cable)
- RAM slots ("settle" for 8GB, buy 4GB sticks, an 8 core, or a 2008)
- Graphics cards (???)
- Poor performance (???)
- Paying for more than I need (???)

??? = I don't understand how this can be an issue

As for the price of the Mac Pro, $2500-$3000 for a 3-5 year investment for a business or someone who's making money with their machine seams reasonable to me compared to the cost of other professional tools (video camera's, photography equipment, music production gear, etc.).

To help make things easier, there's tax write-offs to be had for businesses on the depreciation and there's always the option to buy refurbished or even used Mac Pro's. Also the resale value of Mac Pro's holds up MUCH better than any PC.

I don't think I'm blinded by fanboism but I just don't see a lot to be down about really. OSX, Apple's pro apps, and the Mac Pro are still an unbeatable combo in my opinion... What am I missing here?
eSATA: It's not expensive to add it to a board, and as mentioned, it's commonplace on other LGA1366 boards (especially the SP units).

FW: Multiple channels will help improve throughputs if there's mulitple devices accessed simultaneously. If this isn't an issue, then yes, a cable is cheap enough.

RAM: The slot count is low, no matter how you rationalize it. 6 DIMM's per CPU is common, and there are boards (DP only) that have 9 DIMM's per CPU. Users shouldn't be forced to use larger capacity DIMM's to meet smallish capacity requirements. And yes, 12GB isn't that much compared to what the boards can actually run (max capacity spec of the memory controller). But 4GB DIMM's are more than 2x their 2GB counterparts (same frequency).

It should also be noted that the memory is limited to 1066MHz, even if the CPU used can utilize 1333MHz DDR3, as Apple gimped the firmware (fixed multiplier rather than going from the SPD settings).

Graphics cards: Yes, the choices have been limited for some time. But just like the system, the actual restriction is the firmware as Apple chose to use EFI rather than BIOS (where cards would only need drivers for OS X). It's an artificial barrier that should be addressed, but given the market, the only way we'll get more choices, is if 3rd party card makers develop them on their own. The GTX 285 or Quadro FX4800 wouldn't be available otherwise, as Apple didn't develop them. It does come down to economics, so opening things up a bit could help (i.e. willingness to work with graphic card companies to get a product/s to the Mac market). It can supply additional choices without the need for Apple to make further investments in additional models.

Poor performance: Granted, they did fix the audio bug (sort of, if you rely on an external audio device, as there now seems to be noise issues according to another thread). But the memory clocks are still relevant (fixed multiplier = 1066MHz rather than SPD timings where certain CPU's could utilize 1333MHz RAM), even if it's just specs right now.

Paying more: This isn't that hard to quantify, as the Intel MP's are using the same hardware as other workstations (Xeon chips, comparing the same P/N's for CPU selection). The PC side does end up cheaper, and can even give more features (i.e. additional DIMM slots, eSATA,...). This is just from a hardware perspective, so the existing software investment may render a switch totally moot, as there's insufficient funds to replace all the software.

Granted, larger companies are likely better able to handle the sticker price of an MP. But even they're having to tighten their budget expenditures these days, and for the independents, even if they're earning an income (not posting a net loss), are very susceptible to price differences/increases.

I don't know about you, but I don't think about resale value of a system. I'm more accustomed to retasking the system to a lesser duty, and run it until it's useless or dies.

Assuming the necessary criteria are there, tax write-offs are there for any system purchase. So I see this one as moot.
 
I don't think I'm blinded by fanboism but I just don't see a lot to be down about really. OSX, Apple's pro apps, and the Mac Pro are still an unbeatable combo in my opinion... What am I missing here?

I think you are blinded by what works for you. I am truly happy that you are satisfied with the one pro computer that :apple: offers.

The fact that many people might be looking for an 08 when the 10 comes out is a sign that something is maybe not quite right.

I for one have hopes that they are going to appreciate their loyal pro base again, and start offering better value/options, but I could be wrong.

Who knows, maybe the 10 will surprise us????
 
Graphics cards: Yes, the choices have been limited for some time. But just like the system, the actual restriction is the firmware as Apple chose to use EFI rather than BIOS (where cards would only need drivers for OS X). It's an artificial barrier that should be addressed, but given the market, the only way we'll get more choices, is if 3rd party card makers develop them on their own. The GTX 285 or Quadro FX4800 wouldn't be available otherwise, as Apple didn't develop them. It does come down to economics, so opening things up a bit could help (i.e. willingness to work with graphic card companies to get a product/s to the Mac market). It can supply additional choices without the need for Apple to make further investments in additional models.


To be fair, EFI was supposed to be the replacement for BIOS, but the PC side of the world is dragging ass on that front. Hopefully they catch up soon.
 
Devices will work on all platforms without need for different drivers for every OS.

EFI turned into a bag of hardware hobby hurt fail.
Apple wants to continue to force a walled garden hardware
environment on their hapless customers.

Check out the innumerable threads about people
trying to get more than the three video cards that Apple
offers to work in their computers.

Think control and obedience. :apple:
 
EFI turned into a bag of hardware hobby hurt fail.
Apple wants to continue to force a walled garden hardware
environment on their hapless customers.

Check out the innumerable threads about people
trying to get more than the three video cards that Apple
offers to work in their computers.

Think control and obedience. :apple:

Way to completely miss the point.

Apple's not at fault here: If ATI and NVidia want to release more advanced cards, nobody is going to stop them… they just have to develop them with EFI firmware and write drivers. Clearly they're not doing this very often, and I suspect they have a very good financial case for that: It's probably not worth the money, because the financial expenditure to do that work is probably more than the expected benefit of doing so. Apple customers have an amazing propensity for overpaying for things with Apple logos and then bitching about the cost of everything else.

It is not Apple's job to do the work for third party companies.

Don't get me wrong, I think Apple has their head so far up their ass they can see their own vocal cords when it comes to certain things, but blame the right part.
 
The MacBook Pro has gone from being a serious professional tool to a fashion accessory for English majors :mad: The fact that they make them super-glossy by default and then charge for anti-glare just says it all.

As for the Mac Pro, I think that you need to keep in mind that not everybody is a photographer or video editor. Many people need serious power for scientific, financial, etc. applications, combined with the reliable hardware and robust software of a Mac. It's just that the performance hasn't kept up, and the alternatives keep getting better while Apple focuses on wowing the consumer space with shiny objects.

Personally, I think it will backfire. Pros who were passionate about Macs sustained the company in its near-death years. Consumers are fickle and will chase the next hot thing as soon as it comes along.

If you look at what kind of monitors Apple offers: the cinema displays used to be good, if not overpriced displays.

Not they are just glossy junk I wouldn't want to work with. I'm not keen on buying an ugly NEC wide gamut monitor (I'd even pay more for a nicely styled Apple), but Apple doesn't leave me any choice.

The most ridiculous thing that Apple could do is jacking up the prices on the 2009 Mac Pro line and then you can fry eggs when listening to music on them. This is not what a computer of this price range should be.

Apple needs to show more competitiveness. The times of easy "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" commercials are over. Now we want to see good machines that are worth the premium price we are paying. But recently, almost every new Apple computer has serious problems (the audio issue on the MacPros, the screen flicker on the recent iMacs, etc.)

And stop ripping off customers with their extended warranty (even if it's called "Applecare", it's still an extended warranty) and give a 3 year warranty on workstations like many other computer manufacturers do.

I have the impression that Apple got the hubris from their successful iGadgets and is neglecting the higher end products. Many people who like Apple computers used to like Apple. But I see it more and more that they still like the computers, but dislike, and sometimes hate the company. Not a good sign at all, and hopefully Apple wakes up.
 
I've just read 9 pages of back and forth about Apple's relationship to the pro market. Taking the Expresscard slot off the 15 inch MBP was a major crime for most professsional editors I know who want the 15 inch not the 17 inch MBP.

My main question is why does Apple pursue 64bit processing if not for the pro market? All that just for better playback on QT X?
 
I've just read 9 pages of back and forth about Apple's relationship to the pro market. Taking the Expresscard slot off the 15 inch MBP was a major crime for most professsional editors I know who want the 15 inch not the 17 inch MBP.

My main question is why does Apple pursue 64bit processing if not for the pro market? All that just for better playback on QT X?

Considering pretty much all CPUs being released now are 64 bit, not pursuing it makes Apple look like a bunch of neophytes. Also, the ability to address more than 4GB of RAM is becoming more and more important, even at the consumer level. Even more so over the next decade as virtualization will become a part of day to day computing.
 
What are the motivations to use EFI?
Take a look at the EFI wiki, and see if it helps. :)

Apple's not at fault here: If ATI and NVidia want to release more advanced cards, nobody is going to stop them… they just have to develop them with EFI firmware and write drivers.
ATI and nVidia produce GPU chips and reference designs. It's actually up to the graphics card vendors to make the PC and/or Mac versions if they wish, thinking in terms of 3rd party offerings.

But there is a financial aspect to it, as the market is small. Which means that their motivation is limited at best (not enough potential for profits).

It is not Apple's job to do the work for third party companies.
Apple relys on these companies to provide their cards though, as they don't make their own. They have to use an ODM to supply their offerings.

They don't offer much, as the market is small, so limiting choices to 2x makes sense financially. 3rd party vendors can make Mac compatible cards if they choose.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.