Is classilla dead?


z970mp

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I have the feeling that when Dr. Kaiser finally rolls out the last update to TenFourFox (I expect sometime around the 10 year anniversary), he'll put out one more refresh to Classila to bring it fully up to speed, and then full-stop depart into the world of POWER9 + Linux. It could be at anywhere from FPR15 to FPR20 at that time.

At the moment, I'm making the most of my G5 and it's POWER4 underpinnings until I can do the same as him, which I find to be a great decision on his part.

I suppose it's all where your priorities for being on the PowerPC train are. If you love the machine, you'll probably end up going POWER.
 
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sparty411

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I have the feeling that when Dr. Kaiser finally rolls out the last update to TenFourFox (I expect sometime around the 10 year anniversary), he'll put out one more refresh to Classila to bring it fully up to speed, and then full-stop depart into the world of POWER9 + Linux. It could be at anywhere from FPR15 to FPR20 at that time.

At the moment, I'm making the most of my G5 and it's POWER4 underpinnings until I can do the same as him, which I find to be a great decision.

I suppose it's all where your priorities for being on the PowerPC train are. If you love the machine, you'll probably end up going POWER. If you love the software, you might end up going Linux, as their software and ecosystem strike me as similar to 000's Apple. Unless of course, you eventually cave to newer Apple. - I don't know, software's a tougher nut to crack than hardware.
My reasons for using PowerPC based machines is simple; they are free of PSP/ME. call me a tin foiI hat nut, or whatever. I don't care. I do like the old Powerbook G4's for what they are, but I would love to move on to something a bit more "modern."
 
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Project Alice

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I have the feeling that when Dr. Kaiser finally rolls out the last update to TenFourFox (I expect sometime around the 10 year anniversary), he'll put out one more refresh to Classila to bring it fully up to speed, and then full-stop depart into the world of POWER9 + Linux. It could be at anywhere from FPR15 to FPR20 at that time.

At the moment, I'm making the most of my G5 and it's POWER4 underpinnings until I can do the same as him, which I find to be a great decision.

I suppose it's all where your priorities for being on the PowerPC train are. If you love the machine, you'll probably end up going POWER.
It'll be a dark day when that happens. I dread the day TFF is no longer updated.
 

z970mp

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Expected Arctic Fox all Browsers on PPC Linux are much older than Ten4Fox. Linux is a step backward.
Only if you're using Debian 8 / Ubuntu 16.04 and older, which are both able to run Firefox 45.9. TenFourFox is based on Firefox 45.9, and only includes bits and pieces from 52 and 60 ESR. TFF is the only usable browser for Tiger that I'm aware of, and Leopard has Leopard-Webkit in addition to TFF with little alternative besides that.

The Debian Sid and Fienix repositories (which I'm sure also goes for Adelie / Void Linux) have Midori 7, GNOME Web 3.30, Firefox 60, and other choices. From personal experience, I've also seen Links2 to be an up-to-date and incredibly lightweight Terminal-based browser that is capable of much more than you would think. There are also a handful of other newer browsers available I know I'm forgetting.

On the flip-side to what is claimed, I would argue there are more browsing options on PPC Linux than OS X. I assume you simply haven't taken the time to look.

Putting all that aside, I never once suggested for anyone to run Linux instead of OS X, let alone the PPC versions or any browsing options they might offer over OS X. So, given that, please don't structure your replies to include nonexistent context. Thank you.

EDIT: Here's the link for Firefox 45.9 for Debian 8 / Ubuntu 16.04, from April 2017. In most cases, it's actually faster than TenFourFox.

http://snapshot.debian.org/archive/debian/20170430T212028Z/pool/main/f/firefox-esr/firefox-esr_45.9.0esr-1_powerpc.deb
 
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sparty411

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Expected Arctic Fox all Browsers on PPC Linux are much older than Ten4Fox. Linux is a step backward.
Based on older browsers, yes, but they have numerous security patches, etc.. not to mention, they're extremely fast. I can actually watch youtube in browser with my PB G4 15" 1.67 GHz, as opposed to having to resort to ridiculous work arounds. The truth is, if these machines will continue to be used online in any capacity in the near future, it won't be running Tiger, or Leopard. Development of new software is much easier on an open platform. And after TFF development inevitably ends, GNU/Linux /BSD will be the only platform(s) left to run to, if you'd like to continue using your PPC Mac's on the web.
 
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z970mp

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My reasons for using PowerPC based machines is simple; they are free of PSP/ME. call me a tin foiI hat nut, or whatever. I don't care. I do like the old Powerbook G4's for what they are, but I would love to move on to something a bit more "modern."
I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. No Management Engine for me, thanks. Purism does an outstanding job with the machines they make, but I don't know how possible it is to fully "remove" ME from a proprietary chip, and I still don't want x86 in my life.

Why stop at tin foil hats (PowerPC)? Why not wearable, heavy-duty faraday cages (OpenPOWER)?

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Based on older browsers, yes, but they have numerous security patches, etc.. not to mention, they're extremely fast. I can actually watch youtube in browser with my PB G4 15" 1.67 GHz, as opposed to having to resort to ridiculous work arounds. The truth is, if these machines will continue to be used online in any capacity in the near future, it won't be running Tiger, or Leopard. Development of new software is much easier on an open platform. And after TFF development inevitably ends, GNU/Linux /BSD will be the only platform(s) left to run to, if you'd like to continue using your PPC Mac's on the web.
Thank you. Why is long-term common sense so hard to grasp?
 
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G4fanboy

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Do you REALLY have to bring Linux into EVERY SINGLE response you make in this forum?
In the end I will have to embrace Linux if I want to keep using modern browsers on my PowerMacs. I have no linux PPC machine yet, but I love when users/community make some advance in PPC linux after been abandoned by debian/ubuntu.

Classilla hasn't been updated in 5 years. I'm assuming it won't be. It can't even go on these forums anymore due to SSL.
I have stalked 2 or 3 times Kameron asking if there will be a update but he never answered to my question. I guess her wife have enought with TenFourFox/TFF blog and the TaloSpace blog so he cant give a estimated date for a new Classilla release.

No one in the community can blame him as his work with TFF is keeping most of our machines "internet" alive.
 

sparty411

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I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. No Management Engine for me, thanks.

Why stop at tin foil hats (PowerPC)? Why not wearable, heavy-duty faraday cages (OpenPOWER)?

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Thank you. Why is long-term common sense so hard to grasp?

I'm just waiting for based machines to become afforable. I don't foresee anything coming in the near future.. Demand is quite low, aside of paranoid autists like us, who are few and far between.
 
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z970mp

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No one in the community can blame him as his work with TFF is keeping most of our machines "internet" alive.
I have the utmost respect for Mr. Kaiser. That's why I so commonly address him as "Doctor", as if he had a PhD for the persistent optimization work and application support he's done, but also for relentlessly going on a whole ten years now. I think that takes a lot of guts, skill, and moxy.

If it weren't for him keeping this whole platform relevant online, the PowerPC community alive today might not have existed. And we all owe the man a great deal for such a service as that.
 
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z970mp

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You mean like I can on a 800Mhz TiBook with Omniweb? I'm still waiting for the definitive "PPC Linux browser faster than OSX" proof to appear...
Well certainly, most all PPCL (so we don't have to keep saying the L-word) browsers are faster than TenFourFox (especially in Tiger). But in 2019 and beyond, I believe it's more a matter of what browser is most usable, and what platform will not only get you the farthest in time, but also the most option and freedom, especially if you do indeed plan on using these machines well into the future for productive purposes.

I'm not saying the following is the de-facto current state, but given that, the simple fact is that PowerPC OS X is in fact getting older and will only get harder to use and rely on as time goes on and as the industry moves forward. Assuming the community continues to perform as it has, PPCL can only grow and get easier to use and rely on. I've seen and experienced first hand all this happen in the span of not even a year, and a couple people like myself are only choosing to be early participators. That's all, and you can take of that what you may.

-

I'm surprised OmniWeb is still able to browse YouTube. How does it work?
 
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d-oost

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Why stop at tin foil hats (PowerPC)? Why not wearable, heavy-duty faraday cages (OpenPOWER)?
Because the normal world runs on ARM and x86, which still have a future in the mainstream market. Unless I'd be launching a device into space, I'll skip on the POWER, lol.
 

Dronecatcher

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Assuming the community continues to perform as it has, PPCL can only grow and get easier to use and rely on.
I'm not arguing that Linux is a bad thing but after dipping my toe many times I come away switching back to OSX on PPC because it's simply not best fit - a 2019 OS is going to be slower on such hardware for obvious reasons and as I've said before, it's not just about speed but software choices too.
I commented again because I find the @sparty411 comment, "as opposed to having to resort to ridiculous work arounds" a bit of a joke considering we're talking about Linux here with it's labyrinthine "workarounds" just to get the OS up and running!
 

bunnspecial

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I'm not arguing that Linux is a bad thing but after dipping my toe many times I come away switching back to OSX on PPC because it's simply not best fit - a 2019 OS is going to be slower on such hardware for obvious reasons and as I've said before, it's not just about speed but software choices too.
I commented again because I find the @sparty411 comment, "as opposed to having to resort to ridiculous work arounds" a bit of a joke considering we're talking about Linux here with it's labyrinthine "workarounds" just to get the OS up and running!
I'm afraid that there will come a day where we have to concede that our PPC Macs just aren't fit for browsing the majority of the web(and it most likely will happen sooner than January 19, 2038 at 3:14:07 UTC). Regardless of how up to date if an OS is, most of the web is outpacing the processing power we have on tap.

I'm not saying that NOW is that time, but I do think it's inevitable in a few years. It may already be here with G3s and many web pages.

After all, there are discussions on 68KMLA where folks talk about using SE/30s to browse the web 20 years ago. Now, using a 68K Mac or even a pre-G3 Mac to browse the web is more of an academic exercise than anything. 3 years ago, I could do some LIGHT browsing on my 9600/200MP with Classilla, but I haven't even attempted doing anything other than visiting Macintosh Garden with it in a while(on a side note, it would be nice if Clasilla could at least be made MP-aware, but that's probably asking for too much).

When that day comes, I'll be glad to use my PPC Mac offline, as I do now for a lot of uses anyway.

To think that Linux is a panacea to all the ills of OS X is, to me, deluding oneself into thinking that computers that are 15-20 years old can keep going forever.

I know there is some movement to release some major programs in Linux(Mathematic comes immediately to mind), but even as that happens I seriously doubt that those programs will be available for PPC Linux.

Instead, I'd much rather keep running OS X, which is not only faster and better "polished" but pretty much indefinitely(or at least until 2038 :) ) will continue running the programs it was designed to run as well as it always has. As I see it, the ONLY real advantage of PPC Linux in terms of software is an up-to-date web browser, and we have our fair share of options for that in OS X as well.
 

weckart

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I know there is some movement to release some major programs in Linux(Mathematic comes immediately to mind), but even as that happens I seriously doubt that those programs will be available for PPC Linux.
Well, Mathematica is halfway there already, as it is baked into Raspbian. No idea whether it can be hacked to run on any ARM compiled distribution of Linux or if what is on offer is a cut-down version. As for PPC Linux, no chance.That isn't even a measurable market segment.

There doesn't appear to be much of an appetite to produce commercial applications for Linux. Games never took off and even Steam for Linux looks shaky right now. Having a sizeable chunk of your OS's cheerleaders expecting and only suffering open source software, including drivers, is not the best foundation for a profitable business. It does look like Linux will be split forever between those in business who run custom built software and everyone else forever updating betas of hobbyist stabs at applications that come and go.
 

bunnspecial

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Having a sizeable chunk of your OS's cheerleaders expecting and only suffering open source software, including drivers, is not the best foundation for a profitable business. It does look like Linux will be split forever between those in business who run custom built software and everyone else forever updating betas of hobbyist stabs at applications that come and go.
AFAIK, full blown x86 Mathematica is available for Linux, or at least that's what Wolfram's website claims.

It makes sense to me, as a lot of research computing is done on Linux(not an outside observation-I am a chemist and see/know firsthand what the computational chemists are using, and it's either Linux or macOS).

Similarly, we have instruments that are operated on RHEL. As an interesting side note, after Agilent shut down their NMR division, somehow or another vNMRj(the software that operates Varian/Agilent NMRs) ended up as open source. It's maintained by the open source community, although there are certain key bits and pieces of required to actually talk to/operate an NMR that are only available as part of the software package that shipped with new instruments. Thus, anyone can download it and do offline data processing, and it can be used to update existing installations, but you can't bring a system you find abandoned behind a building back to life using only the open source components(incidentally, the "abandoned behind a building" thing is more or less how my undergraduate school got their NMR magnet, but that's another story).

I don't even NEED Linux for that application, though, as the open source folks offer it pre-compiled for(Intel) macOS. I rarely do NMR anymore, but when I do I can do offline processing from the comfort of my office.

Outside of niches like that, though, I don't see commercial software taking off.

As part of one of my hobbies, there are two programs that are very important to me-Adobe Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop. I'm even somewhat limited on those anymore as the newest version of Adobe Camera RAW for PPC doesn't support the main cameras I use these days, but at least I CAN do some image processing work, especially if I'm working with JPEG files.

I find GIMP backwards and quite non-intuitive as a Photoshop replacement, and it also lacks some tools that I consider very important. I've tried Darktable, but for someone who finds working in Lightroom second nature I don't find it a very welcoming program. I also KNOW how to get the results I like using the RAW converter in Lightroom, and getting the same result out of Darktable seems near impossible to me.
 

z970mp

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Regardless of how up to date if an OS is, most of the web is outpacing the processing power we have on tap.
I would consider that a rather pessimistic view to have. If you're willing to do any work, I've seen these older machines fly online, whether that may take place in OS X, or PPCL.

And considering I still see Pentium 4s and Celerons being sold in stores, I'd consider at least the late G4s to be fine for the modern web (given a little bit of patience), at least for now and the foreseeable future.

It may already be here with G3s and many web pages.
You're forgetting Links2, which renders webpages made up solely of text and colors / images. It's fully usable for light / basic tasks...

http://links.twibright.com/

To think that Linux is a panacea to all the ills of OS X is, to me, deluding oneself into thinking that computers that are 15-20 years old can keep going forever.
I love Leopard, and it doesn't have too many ills if you ask me. That said, Linux does in fact do things OS X cannot, and it does it fact allow you to do things out of the box that you do need workarounds for in OS X. It's all about the priorities of the end user, and what exactly they want to do with their computer.

Well, take it this way. I (and lots of other people) take these machines for what they are, and will continue to use them for as long as they function, which includes browsing the web. If you don't like that idea, then you don't have to take part if you do not wish to.

And I'd advise you to keep in mind, this is the PowerPC Macs forum. Most people here are only here because they want to make the most of what they already have. Many people here are going to try and make it work until it's flat out ridiculous to even attempt, which rest assured is nowhere near this present time.

Instead, I'd much rather keep running OS X,
What's the matter with you? Nobody here ever challenged your personal decision to stay with OS X. By all means, continue to do so. It's got a great software catalog, is gorgeous to look at (10.5), and is generally solid as a rock. For the 43rd time man, use what you want to.

As I see it, the ONLY real advantage of PPC Linux in terms of software is an up-to-date web browser, and we have our fair share of options for that in OS X as well.
This is grasping at straws, and is an unfair conclusion. Speaking for Leopard, we have 2, which may well cease to be updated in the foreseeable future. As for PPCL, I just previously listed 4 off the top of my head in post #7, and make no mistake they are just getting started and are quite literally only getting better. Not only that, but theoretically speaking, if hackers were trying to get into my machine I would have the best chances on PPCL. Great as it may be, Leopard was last updated 10 years ago, and has an ungodly number of known security holes and vulnerabilities.

To wrap, I'm not telling you or anyone else to change anything about your/their life. I'm telling you not to be willfully ignorant to information in front of you, that's all.
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we're talking about Linux here with it's labyrinthine "workarounds" just to get the OS up and running!
When GRUB is fully implemented in the next month or so, the Debian Sid installer should not require any workarounds to speak of. Likewise for Fienix, when the installer itself is made in the close future.
 
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d-oost

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I'm afraid that there will come a day where we have to concede that our PPC Macs just aren't fit for browsing the majority of the web(and it most likely will happen sooner than January 19, 2038 at 3:14:07 UTC). Regardless of how up to date if an OS is, most of the web is outpacing the processing power we have on tap.

I'm not saying that NOW is that time, but I do think it's inevitable in a few years. It may already be here with G3s and many web pages.
Honestly, with how the web is faring, I'd say using anything PowerPC is becoming untenable. Hell, I'd argue anything below a Core 2 Quad is going to be in the position PowerPC has been in for a while, in the 2020s. Anyone still... decisive enough... to continue to rely for modern computer needs on PowerPC, or god forbid NetBurst, will be far more patient waiting for pages to slowly render if at all, and will need to work around other things like online video playback. As much as I applaud the effort done to do this, it's very obviously showing that this hardware is at its limits for tasks of today.
 

Gamer9430

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While we're already off topic from the OP, I feel like at this point in time in 2019, if you're trying to get a cheap Mac to get into Macs or whatever reason you may have, pricing on C2D Macs from 2010 and earlier have plummeted, while the less capable PowerPC Macs have already bottomed out and are starting to come back up in price as time moves on and these devices become more and more obscure. I've been in this game since 2014; 2019 PPC Mac pricing is not even close to what it was in 2014 or earlier. Meanwhile, 2010 Macs (just as an example) are rapidly approaching the 10 year mark, and while not officially supported by Apple, can be easily hacked to run the latest operating systems, which support the latest apps, internet browsers, etc. I have several 2010 Macs, including the 17in MacBook Pro, 11in MacBook Air, and 13in MacBook Air. All 3 of these machines are far more capable than anything PPC I have, allowing me to watch 720p or even 1080p video without issue on various websites, including HBO, YouTube, Hulu, and Netflix. I love using the 11in MacBook Air to watch TV in bed thanks to its small size and the fact that it plays everything perfectly. The 17in MacBook Pro is my backup laptop in case my main 2012 15in MacBook Pro is down for the count if, say, I forget to charge the battery back up before going to my next class. It handles everything I throw at it with little resistance, albeit its mostly just slideshows, documents, Slack, Discord, and web browsing, but I can do all that at the same time!

Point I'm trying to make here is that for people who are trying to get into Macs now or are looking for a cheap Mac that still performs tasks pretty well, it makes much more sense to get a 2010 Core 2 Duo-based Mac than a 2004/2005 PowerPC-based Mac. Pricing on late C2D macs have come way down and will continue to fall as time progresses, while PPCs have already begun to come back up in price as the G3s are now at the 20-year old mark, with the G4s soon to follow. The 2010s can run much newer operating systems and can be hacked to run even the latest OSes with ease, and when macOS support eventually gets cut off, you can run Windows or even L I N U X with ease, further providing support to these machines. For the normal end user, trying to install Linux to ever so slightly improve support on a PowerPC Mac is way too advanced. It took @LightBulbFun how long to get it running properly on his PowerMac G5?
 
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Dronecatcher

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Hell, I'd argue anything below a Core 2 Quad is going to be in the position PowerPC has been in for a while, in the 2020s.
I'm already in a perilous position with my Mac Pro running Snow Leopard - between Chrome 38, Intel TFF and ArcticFox I still can't get to every site 100% and have to use Firefox under Lubuntu in a Virtual Box where necessary.
Of course, the deep irony is, those sites are still reachable with TFF and Webkit on PPC!
 
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