Is Sony Fragmenting Thunderbolt? Apple, not Intel, Applies for Thunderbolt Trademark

[scoobydoo99]

Memory Stick, anyone?

Typical Sony. Just like they insisted on shunning Compact Flash and SD cards (to push their proprietary Memory Stick), they are again refusing to play. Who cares?

 

[xUKHCx]

What are you on about ? On a Thunderbolt MBP, you have to disconnect the monitor to add to the chain. It's that simple.

There's nothing faulty in my logic, premise or conclusion. As shipped by Apple, Thunderbolt requires unplugging your monitor to add something to the chain.

I'm not really up on Thunderbolt as I don't have any device that has it or have the abilty to purchase any such items in the near future so forgive me if this is known. However can't the monitor be the first item in the chain and thus any external drives etc be added without unplugging the monitor. I know it means you can't unplug the monitor and keep the drives attached etc.

 

[KnightWRX]

I'm not really up on Thunderbolt as I don't have any device that has it or have the abilty to purchase any such items in the near future so forgive me if this is known. However can't the monitor be the first item in the chain and thus any external drives etc be added without unplugging the monitor. I know it means you can't unplug the monitor and keep the drives attached etc.

Nope, monitor has to be last.

 

[xUKHCx]

Nope, monitor has to be last.

Oh that is rubbish. Daisy chaining on the whole though is rubbish as you end up with situations such as this. What you really need is more ports so you can keep the display on one and other devices on the others.

I'm glad I don't have the latest MBP.

 

[diamond.g]

I'm not really up on Thunderbolt as I don't have any device that has it or have the abilty to purchase any such items in the near future so forgive me if this is known. However can't the monitor be the first item in the chain and thus any external drives etc be added without unplugging the monitor. I know it means you can't unplug the monitor and keep the drives attached etc.

Nope, monitor has to be last.

And it will stay that way until monitors come with thunderbolt builtin.

 

[KnightWRX]

And it will stay that way until monitors come with thunderbolt builtin.

You mean until monitors downgrade their effective bandwidth from 21 Gbps to 10 Gbps ?

So much for those nice higher res options we all want...

Not to mention, Apple's current Thunderbolt implementation doesn't support daisy chaining DP 1.2 monitors since they still use DP 1.1a.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Nope, monitor has to be last.

where do you get this information?

 

[KnightWRX]

where do you get this information?

Do you have a Thunderbolt enabled monitor that you can show me ? How do you propose a hooking up a Thunderbolt HDD to the monitor ? How do you expect the monitor to pass along the Thunderbolt signal ?

Read the MBP/iMac forums once in a while.

 

[diamond.g]

You mean until monitors downgrade their effective bandwidth from 21 Gbps to 10 Gbps ?

So much for those nice higher res options we all want...

Not to mention, Apple's current Thunderbolt implementation doesn't support daisy chaining DP 1.2 monitors since they still use DP 1.1a.

Hey I never said it was a perfect choice. Maybe the next rev of Thunderbolt will allow for DP1.2 (or whatever the then current version is)

where do you get this information?

It should be common sense. What DP monitor would be able to pass the Thunderbolt signal? (Hint: None). Besides it was mentioned by Apple and Intel with Thunderbolt was first shown, that the DP Display needed to be last in the chain.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Do you have a Thunderbolt enabled monitor that you can show me ? How do you propose a hooking up a Thunderbolt HDD to the monitor ? How do you expect the monitor to pass along the Thunderbolt signal ?

Read the MBP/iMac forums once in a while.

well going off of your logic....

there also isn't a hdd on the market that i can plug the monitor into after the drive has been plugged into the computer.

There likely WILL be monitors with the ability to place it at any point in the daisy chain because it will have 2 mDP on the back....

 

[KnightWRX]

There likely WILL be monitors with the ability to place it at any point in the daisy chain because it will have 2 mDP on the back....

No, 2 mDP is not sufficient. It requires 2 Thunderbolt ports. So unless you update all your hardware to Thunderbolt (including your monitors), you can forget it.

Hey I never said it was a perfect choice. Maybe the next rev of Thunderbolt will allow for DP1.2 (or whatever the then current version is)

Unless Thunderbolt can move more bandwidth than 10 Gbps per channel or allow both channels to be used 1 way (how would that work if your chain has other bi-directional devices on it ? Colissions ?), forget it. Not to mention, your HDDs and other Thunderbolt stuff is now robbing you of display bandwidth, thus limiting your output capabilities.

Sounds to me the display needs to be seperate. Too many compromises in Apple's solution for high-end video production/photo editing, where this stuff is targeted for now (let's face it, consumers aren't buying single-host based promise Arrays in the thousands of the dollars that can even approach saturating this thing, much less USB3).

 

[Belly-laughs]

I have two hard drives - "A" connected to the MBP and to "B", and "B" connected to "A" and the monitor.

I want to remove "A". How can I do that without corrupting the data on "B"?

Inserting drive "C" is no problem - I unplug the monitor from "B", connect drive "C" to drive "B" and the monitor to drive "C".

Removing "C" isn't a problem - dismount "C", unplug the monitor, plug the monitor into "B".

why turn this into such an issue? your tb monitor would be the obvious first-in-chain device when you sit down with your mbp and connect your desk accessories. your 3.5" external hds would already be connected to the monitor, either chained or in separate ports. and the disk or peripheral you are most likely to unchain, a 2.5" portable disk perhaps, will come last.

even so, if you want to make initial drama and make illogical chains, you will always end up with the peripheral you unplug the most as the last link.

happy?

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

No, 2 mDP is not sufficient. It requires 2 Thunderbolt ports. So unless you update all your hardware to Thunderbolt (including your monitors), you can forget it.

yeah, yeah, i know it supposed to be TB, just uses the mDP connector, regardless of semantics...

Yes, a monitor will be released with 2 THUNDERBOLT ports on the back, now why does your monitor need to be last in the daisy chain?

 

[Old Muley]

I should probably care about the thunderbolt thing more than I do but the only thing I was thinking when reading this was "Why are we still putting VGA on laptops?"

Why is there a PS/2 port on my Dell laptop that I use at work? I can't think of the last time I've even seen a PS/2 keyboard or mouse, let alone used one.

 

[KnightWRX]

yeah, yeah, i know it supposed to be TB, just uses the mDP connector, regardless of semantics...

Yes, a monitor will be released with 2 THUNDERBOLT ports on the back, now why does your monitor need to be last in the daisy chain?

Because I'm not upgrading my multi-thousand dollar monitor as fast I as upgrade hard drives ?

Anyway, not like a HDD can even use TB. Much better to just buy a eSATA or USB 3 hard drive and leave the display port empty. Apple's TB implementation forces users once again to ditch all their perfectly functioning hardware and upgrade everything in one go.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Why is there a PS/2 port on my Dell laptop that I use at work? I can't think of the last time I've even seen a PS/2 keyboard or mouse, let alone used one.

and people are bitching about the orientation and not being able to plug in usb

haha at least it only has 2 ways to go...

Because I'm not upgrading my multi-thousand dollar monitor ?

so in YOUR situation... not EVERY situation

Also, what would be to stop you from buying a hub that you could plug into your mac and then have 6 TB ports and you can easily dismount any drive you want....?

 

[aimbdd]

Because I'm not upgrading my multi-thousand dollar monitor as fast I as upgrade hard drives ?

Anyway, not like a HDD can even use TB. Much better to just buy a eSATA or USB 3 hard drive and leave the display port empty. Apple's TB implementation forces users once again to ditch all their perfectly functioning hardware and upgrade everything in one go.

Or you can just use everything like you have been? This makes no sense.

 

[Belly-laughs]

Because I'm not upgrading my multi-thousand dollar monitor as fast I as upgrade hard drives ?

you'd need an adaptor regardless of which port type tb uses. still, if you're using a portable, how about the option of feeding some more power to your pixels with an external tb graphics card? there's more to tb than just displays and disks.

 

[tbrinkma]

You mean until monitors downgrade their effective bandwidth from 21 Gbps to 10 Gbps ?

So much for those nice higher res options we all want...

Not to mention, Apple's current Thunderbolt implementation doesn't support daisy chaining DP 1.2 monitors since they still use DP 1.1a.

Right now, every DP/mDP monitor on the market can be driven just fine (at max rez & refresh) by a DP 1.1a compatible port, so there's no problem caused by putting one on a DP 1.1a port instead of a DP 1.2 port.

Future mDP monitors (DP will probably phase out of use completely in not too long, since mDP seems to be the more popular computer-side connector of the two) will likely be fully functional Thunderbolt devices, probably with some additional ports available.

Anyway, not like a HDD can even use TB. Much better to just buy a eSATA or USB 3 hard drive and leave the display port empty. Apple's TB implementation forces users once again to ditch all their perfectly functioning hardware and upgrade everything in one go.

Remember the RAID enclosure that was used for the demo when Thunderbolt was officially announced/released? That was *already* using more bandwidth than USB 3.0 provides (even if you got to ignore USB protocol overhead and use the raw USB bandwidth).

 

[RonD69]

Sony's move is logical to me

The reason why I say this is because right now there aren't a lot of peripherals with Thunderbolt connectors. Sony is just trying to be backwards compatible with existing hardware.

 

[farmboy]

Sony named it i.Link because Apple trademarked Firewire. Everybody else called it IEEE 1394, because Apple trademarked Firewire. Is Apple doing the same thing here ? (ie, trademarking Thunderbolt like they trademarked Firewire, forcing everyone else into different branding).

Licensing.

 

[farmboy]

Too little, too late, too irrelevant.



Because right now there's indication that they are trademarking the term. There is no indication they will give away a free license. Anyway, why bother to trademark it if you're going to give away the name ?

For many reasons, including a consistent marketing plan which you establish and when others use it reinforces the plan. But besides that, it doesn't cost that much to trademark something, so it's not that much of a bother.

 

[Belly-laughs]

The reason why I say this is because right now there aren't a lot of peripherals with Thunderbolt connectors. Sony is just trying to be backwards compatible with existing hardware.

like next generation and generation thereafter computers won't have usb ports?

 

[KnightWRX]

you'd need an adaptor regardless of which port type tb uses.

Sure I would, and then I'd get to plug the monitor last in the chain and need to unplug it every time I swap out a TB device from said chain. The crux of my argument.

It makes no sense, especially in a bus type configuration, to pair displays and storage devices.

Actually, this is 2011. Bus type configurations make no sense period.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

like next generation and generation thereafter computers won't have usb ports?

theoretically they wouldn't need to if TB can use a usb connector then you could have 1 port to plug in usb 1,2,3, TB, and mDP devices...

We will see if sony actually is going to/was allowed to use usb connectors or if this just some analysts "who have heard from sources"