Is Sony Fragmenting Thunderbolt? Apple, not Intel, Applies for Thunderbolt Trademark

[xxBURT0Nxx]

I have two hard drives - "A" connected to the MBP and to "B", and "B" connected to "A" and the monitor.

I want to remove "A". How can I do that without corrupting the data on "B"?

Inserting drive "C" is no problem - I unplug the monitor from "B", connect drive "C" to drive "B" and the monitor to drive "C".

Removing "C" isn't a problem - dismount "C", unplug the monitor, plug the monitor into "B".

yeah, you obviously couldn't remove drive a without ejecting drive b as well, but i also don't envision many situations where you would need to unplug a drive in the middle of your chain... why not just leave it plugged in? I guess it could be an inconvenience at times, but i just don't see that many scenarios where you would need to unplug that drive, and if you know you're going to need to do that plan where you plug the drive in.

You also should also be able to just plug the c drive into the back of the monitor assuming it has 2 mDP's.

Also, i'm sure the same "hub" type devices you mention for esata will be released so that you can just plug one "hub" into your tb port and then have 6 ports off of that....

I think the TB technology is great. Why not integrate it into the port that 99.9999% of the population uses? No USB 3 support on the Macs is shameful.

did you read the article or thread? usb-if said NO to intel using a usb connector, and at this point sony using USB is a RUMOR...

 

[zorinlynx]

I should probably care about the thunderbolt thing more than I do but the only thing I was thinking when reading this was "Why are we still putting VGA on laptops?"

Apple tends to often be mocked as the company that requires dongles for *everything*. So other companies try to differentiate themselves by putting full sized ports on their laptops still.

I saw a Thinkpad recently that had DVI, VGA and HDMI all on one machine. It could drive three displays!

I don't really mind dongles (and tend to buy *cables* instead; I have a mini displayport to HDMI cable, much nicer than a dongle) but some people do. Also, VGA is still in demand in the business world for plugging into conference room projector setups.

 

[AppleScruff1]

did you read the article or thread? usb-if said NO to intel using a usb connector, and at this point sony using USB is a RUMOR...

I realize it is just a rumor and you will see one of my earlier posts referring to that. If USB said no, then how would Sony do it anyway? Lawsuit anyone? And totally unrelated, in the case of Macs,USB 3 could have been included in addition to TB as USB 3 is backwards compatible. And Macs do include USB 2 ports.

Agree with these and pretty much everything else you said! And of course you got '-1'ed for it; awesome system.

I just don't see how TB can win through. There is no substitute for ubiquity in the port space. I start to wonder what port will replace it on the next iMacs. I look forward to it having USB3 more than whatever else they might decide looks good for it.

LOL, the fanboys are giving you the -1 too! They think Apple is perfect and has their best interests at heart.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

I realize it is just a rumor and you will see one of my earlier posts referring to that. If USB said no, then how would Sony do it anyway? Lawsuit anyone? And totally unrelated, in the case of Macs,USB 3 could have been included in addition to TB as USB 3 is backwards compatible. And Macs do include USB 2 ports.

Well usb said no, and the article notes this which is why it's a RUMOR that sony is using usb connectors. We won't know for sure until sony announces it or releases the computer. For all we know the TB connector could be on the other side of the laptop and this is just some "analysts" saying that sony must be using usb connectors because they don't see a mDP connector on the computer... we will see in time what really happens.

As for your second point, SNB does NOT include the required chipsets for usb 3.0. Computers that support usb 3.0 had to add 3rd party chipsets/controller for usb 3.0. Apple also had to include an additional chipset for thunderbolt, so they had to chose between the two. Obviously since they helped develop light peak, they went with thunderbolt. Intels next gen chipsets, Ivy Bridge, will have the usb 3.0 controllers built in so we should see usb 3.0 in the next mac refreshes.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Well usb said no, and the article notes this which is why it's a RUMOR that sony is using usb connectors. We won't know for sure until sony announces it or releases the computer. For all we know the TB connector could be on the other side of the laptop and this is just some "analysts" saying that sony must be using usb connectors because they don't see a mDP connector on the computer... we will see in time what really happens.

As for your second point, SNB does NOT include the required chipsets for usb 3.0. Computers that support usb 3.0 had to add 3rd party chipsets/controller for usb 3.0. Apple also had to include an additional chipset for thunderbolt, so they had to chose between the two. Obviously since they helped develop light peak, they went with thunderbolt. Intels next gen chipsets, Ivy Bridge, will have the usb 3.0 controllers built in so we should see usb 3.0 in the next mac refreshes.

It could very well turn out to be a rumor and there is no USB 3 TB compatible port on the Sony. I know Sandy Bridge doesn't include native USB 3 support. Maybe it would have been a tight fit in the MBP, but why not in the iMacs?

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

It could very well turn out to be a rumor and there is no USB 3 TB compatible port on the Sony. I know Sandy Bridge doesn't include native USB 3 support. Maybe it would have been a tight fit in the MBP, but why not in the iMacs?

who knows, don't want to support it in part of their lines perhaps? We all know how apple looks for uniformity amongst their product lines. Maybe they don't want to support usb 3.0 at all and we won't even see it when ivy bridge is released. Maybe they would have had to modify the logic boards and didn't want to... who really knows haha

 

[maclaptop]

Have you ever looked into a USB port? Its very clear which way it's meant to go. Incase you didnt look inside, most USB products have the USB symbol on the top side so you know which way to stick it in.

Some people are very slow learners.

Your clear picture may be the first time they've seen the inside of one of the most prolific ports ever

 

[TEG]

I don't think I have ever seen a mini displayport on anything other than Apple hardware.
I have seen USB on, well, every PC since 2000. Well done Sony. Stick to common ports.

Actually, Dell is fully supporting MiniDP, on their devices to save space on their laptops. Also, USB-IF says you can't use the USB connector for anything else, so technically, the USB-IF could revoke Sony's ability to use USB on their computers. Sony is the biggest offender for fragmentation, as they made the 4-port Firewire connector and the square USB Mini-B 5-pin.

TEG

 

[noahtk]

?

Clueless lol

 

[Snowy_River]

...
Step 3: Get up from your chair and proceed to a vantage point that best reveals the orientation of the USB ports.
...

With the tower at the front desk of my business, there is no vantage point that adequately reveals the orientation of the ports. This is made even more frustrating by the fact that the USB ports are actually upside down. I don't have to go back there all that often, so I almost always try the wrong orientation first (which actually should be the right orientation...).

isn't the point of the daisy chain being able to just add on another device, why would you need to be unplugging anything, i'm confused by your statement?

Well, really, the issue with daisy-chains is the fact that you need to dismount everything farther down the chain if you want to remove something from the middle of the chain. Consider this (yes, I know what I'm about to offer is an extreme example, but it actually happened to me once with FireWire drives - an example of my shortsightedness in this case):

You have the following set-up:

Computer == Drive A == Drive B == Drive C

Now, running a special configuration, you've started up on an OS install on Drive C. In the midst of this, a coworker comes along and wants to snag Drive B from you. Because of the daisy-chain, you can't remove Drive B without removing Drive C. But you can't remove Drive C without shutting down the computer because that's your startup volume. Whoops.

...

1. have one shape

2. fit in any orientation

...

Neither USB, the best model so far, nor any of the innumerable Apple standards fit the bill.

...

Actually, Apple does have a connect that may come closer than anything we've got so far. Do you remember the MagSafe with fiber optic data channel patent that Apple has?

I have never seen a quote from the USB forum about refusing to allow the port to be used, nor any public statement from Apple or Intel to that effect.

This seems to be an urban legend, not a statement of fact.

(Humble apologies will be offered if such statements can be found...)
...

While not a quote directly from the USB-IF, wikipedia cites the same thing:

...At the time, there were no details on the physical implementation, and mock-ups appeared showing a system similar to the earlier Intel demos using a combined USB/Light Peak port.[21] Shortly before the release of the new machines, the USB Implementers Forum (USB-IF) announced they would not allow this, stating that USB was not open to modification in this way.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Makes more sense this way though. Unplugging your monitor to swap hard drives sounds like a pain. Though this fragmentation sure isn't going to help adoption if true. Now who's going to be stuck with converters ? Apple or Sony ?

Let's see. Who else is going to add Thunderbolt? I'd say if the rest of the manufacturers use USB and Apple is the only one using Mini-Displays Port...well...

And yeah, it would suck to unplug your monitor just to swap a Thunderbolt device. That is the grim stupidity of using a monitor connection for a high speed data port....

At the very least, Apple should always have TWO Thunderbolt connectors so you can use one for a dedicated display. I think a Thunderbolt Hub would help a LOT in this area (it could also have USB style connectors next to the MDP ones). After all, most people using external monitors will want a Hub anyway that won't be moved (future monitors will probably includes hubs, at least from Apple. I'm not convinced MDP will ever be widely adopted, to tell you the truth, certainly not any time soon. No consumer places like Best Buy that I've visited offer a single monitor with them (outside Apple).

So now I have to keep track of which USB ports I'm plugging stuff into? That sounds way more confusing. I really like that I can tell Firewire 400 ports apart from Firewire 800 ports by looking at them.

I think having USB 3 ports look the same as USB 2 ports is terrible enough, now there's gonna be THREE kinds of USB ports out there that all look the same? (Well, 4 kinds, really, if you count USB 1. I'm not counting it since they're rare now, but you totally could count it.)

WTF would you want USB3 ports to look different from USB2? All USB2 devices will work in USB3 ports so there would be no reason to have ANY USB2 ports on new computers.

Similarly, I would imagine Thunderbolt "USB" style connectors would be rigged up to automatically recognize Thunderbolt devices from USB ones (assuming they are a shared connector; otherwise it would be stupid/confusing since you could plug the wrong device in to the wrong connector if they look identical but don't work both ways).

About the trademark part. Is Apple doing the same "Firewire" stuff they pulled in the 90s ? That sure didn't help fragmentation (i.Link, IEEE 1394, firewire... hello consumer confusion).

I think if Apple had existed and supplied a single door hinge for one of the Apollo capsules that went to the moon they would be trying to trademark the name NASA....

That is about the equivalent of what they are trying to do (i.e. STEAL someone else's trademark). Maybe Intel could just go back to calling it "LightPeak" and Sony could call their USB style connector "LightPeak" also and that would leave Apple with a non-standard "Thunderbolt" connector that no one else on earth uses. That would suit me fine. I'm tired of Apple trying to control the Universe.

 

[MH01]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

Agree with using an established connection like USB for TB . MiniDP is apple being stubborn. shame if apple is alone with miniDP. We will see

 

[Macsavvytech]

Well, I'd say no because Apple launched with it first, anyone who then chooses to make it different, are the ones fragmenting it.

But I believe that having a USB connector helps a lot, as you can then plug any USB device into it. I have a Esata port on my laptop and it comes in handy if I want to use it for a USB instead.




Have you ever looked into a USB port? Its very clear which way it's meant to go. Incase you didnt look inside, most USB products have the USB symbol on the top side so you know which way to stick it in.

Image​

Make sure the gap in the socket lines up with the block in the port.

Hard to do when you are fumbling behind your monitor.
USB ports have a habit of being in hard to get to places ...

 

[Dr McKay]

That's a workaround, not a solution. We shouldn't have to look inside the plug and socket before connecting, which is essentially what you have to do with USB.

Good lord, don't ever come to England, I guess you'd be blindly slamming the plug into the socket at different angles until it fits?

Hard to do when you are fumbling behind your monitor.
USB ports have a habit of being in hard to get to places ...

Never really had that problem myself, they're on the side on my laptop. On my Tower, the USB ports are on the front, and the top of it. On the Monitor, they're all on the right-hand side of the monitor, not the back.

But still even if you mess up, you've only got 1 way you can try and plug it in wrong.

 

[biallystock]

Hard to do when you are fumbling behind your monitor.
USB ports have a habit of being in hard to get to places ...

Except on those 'badly designed' PCs where they usually put them on the front, in plain sight.

Maybe that is why they like them so much, they can actually find them!

 

[kalsta]

Good lord, don't ever come to England, I guess you'd be blindly slamming the plug into the socket at different angles until it fits?

Huh?? That doesn't bear any similarity to a USB plug in the slightest. The correct orientation is easily visible from the outside, which is exactly what I'm arguing for. (FYI I life in Australia where the plugs are somewhat similar, but nice try trying to bamboozle me with your exoticness.)

With USB you cannot tell by the outer shape of the plug or socket at all to help determine correct orientation. You have to look inside both, which is really quite an absurd design.

 

[JoEw]

Why can't we just make a new port for a new type of data transfer technology?

The reason why apple used minidisplay for thunderbolt is because
1. it's smaller then usb port.
2. it separates the technology avoiding consumer confusion between USB and thunderbolt
3. minidisplay clearly was not popular in adoption or support so apple replaced that with a thunderbolt is that bad thing?

although you could say there will be costumer confusion between thunderbolt and minidisplay, think about how many people have heard of USB compared to how many have heard of minidisplay... exactly

 

[chatin]

Brings back memories

Sony is bad news for Apple. The last time Jobs tried to cozy up to them was 2005's "the year of HD video"

Steve told everyone to run out and get a $3500 Sony FX1 and start editing it on a a Mac.

 

[Nuvi]

Fact : The first implementation of Thunderbolt was through USB connectors. Then the board in charge of USB standard told that they would not accept Thunderbolt into the USB connector specification.

Intel and Apple didn't want to create a whole new port for this, so they decided to go with the next logical option, miniDisplayPort.

Yes it would have been nice to have USB and Thunderbolt in the same connector, that's why Intel tried that first.

Read what I wrote. As I said Apple should have tried harder. Apple wanted to use hybrid USB as Thunderbolt connector but failed to make a deal with USB-IF. Now comes Sony with exactly the same connector that Apple wanted to use. Apparently Sony has managed to secure a deal that Apple slipped thru their fingers. Hence, Apple should have tried harder. With direct USB3 and Thunderbolt compatibility we would have a port / ports that have wide array of available devices instead of the current Apple adaptation that isn't seeing much use at all apart from displays and couple of EXPENSIVE devices from Blackmagic, LaCie and Promise that are not even available yet. For the fun of it try searching Thunderbolt on Apple web store. How many items did you find? Thats right, not a single device is available, not even an adapter cable.

 

[otosan]

if blue color then probably it's just usb 3.0

 

[Nuvi]

Why can't we just make a new port for a new type of data transfer technology?

The reason why apple used minidisplay for thunderbolt is because
1. it's smaller then usb port.
2. it separates the technology avoiding consumer confusion between USB and thunderbolt
3. minidisplay clearly was not popular in adoption or support so apple replaced that with a thunderbolt is that bad thing?

although you could say there will be costumer confusion between thunderbolt and minidisplay, think about how many people have heard of USB compared to how many have heard of minidisplay... exactly

Why do you think there is consumer confusion with USB Thunderbolt? Just stick in the device into USB port regardless what protocol it uses and it works. To me this sounds like "zero confusion port" since vast majority of consumers don't need to care about it what they stick into it. It just works. For those who require maximum bandwidth need to know how to link the devices correctly but the same applies to Apple's implementation.

 

[grahamnp]

I don't really care how Sony got away with it, but if they pull it off, I'd much rather have a USB3.0/TB port than have a mini-DP/TB one.

 

[Blue Fox]

or it could just be USB 3.0

Exactly. The current Sony's shipping now have the "blue stripe" on the USB 3.0 Port. If the dude who created this rumor based his info on the fact that there is a USB with a blue-stripe, then he needs to educate himself.

As an example, here's a current Sony Vaio on sale on BBY.com, and it has two supposed "Thunderbolt USB" connectors.

 

[Nuvi]

Apple implemented the standard FIRST, not sony. Apple also used mini display to avoid user confusion between usb and thunderbolt so if a consumer buys something with thunderbolt they will know clearly if there computer has a thunderbolt port or not. However if thunderbolt had the usb port then thousands of people would plug in there thunderbolt display or harddrive into a usb 2.0/3.0 port and then we have a bunch of users confused about why they arn't getting the high speeds that thunderbolt promised them.


It's important that all companies make this a standard port on there computers they sell. It is the future display/hard drive/ssd connector and it rightfully should use a different port then the already common usb port to avoid confusion to the costumer.

But it's not even for sure sony is really doing this so only time will tell if they really are fragmenting this or if this is just a slow rumor day.

Eh.. Are you serious? First Apple introduced mini display port then they introduce Thunderbolt. Now bring in a consumer who has Mac with mini display port and who buys Thunderbolt device which doesn't work with his Mac due to the fact that his Mac's mini display port is not compatible with Thunderbolt. Talk about consumer confusion... The fact remains, hybrid USB / Thunderbolt port would have been right way to go. Apple / Intel tried it but didn't manage to negotiate a deal with USB-IF. Apparently Sony paid what USB-IF wanted or just had better overall approach for the negotiations. For some strange reason it seems Apple has really poor track record when it comes standards negotiations. First we had the rocky road of FireWire (which is hell of lot better then USB and could have owned the market place with better licensing policy), then mini display port and now Thunderbolt. Unfortunately it's the consumers that suffer from Apple's lack of ability to implement the widely accepted standards.

 

[EatSleepMac]

doubt it

Exactly. The current Sony's shipping now have the "blue stripe" on the USB 3.0 Port. If the dude who created this rumor based his info on the fact that there is a USB with a blue-stripe, then he needs to educate himself.

As an example, here's a current Sony Vaio on sale on BBY.com, and it has two supposed "Thunderbolt USB" connectors.

Image

Those are clearly USB 3.0. Plus I just can't see sony pulling this off. Oh and is it just me or does that Vaio look really ugly from the side like that, maybe I'm just used to my MBP