Is Sony Fragmenting Thunderbolt? Apple, not Intel, Applies for Thunderbolt Trademark

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Here's the thing about USB 3.0 vs Thunderbolt: in practical usage, no one is going to be exceeding USB 3.0 speeds with their MacBook anytime soon.

not true SSD Raid drives will be on the market before the end of the year and they can exceed the speed of usb 3.0

Just because YOU won't be using the tech doesn't mean NO ONE will....

With a $99 dongle, of course.

because the adapters are $99? The mDP > HDMI adapter is $29 from apple, cheaper from other places

I don't want to quiesce and dismount my TBolt disk drives in order to plug/unplug something in a friggin' daisy chain.

who said you will have to dismount a drive to plug something else in....?

 

[QuarterSwede]

not true SSD Raid drives will be on the market before the end of the year and they can exceed the speed of usb 3.0

Just because YOU won't be using the tech doesn't mean NO ONE will....

Exactly. People in video production can't wait for those to come out as they need them NOW!

 

[Eddyisgreat]

I've heard you can't. Are you sure? Strange that I've seen companies like Sonnet announce (not ship of course!) Thunderbolt adapters for FireWire 800 and Gigabit Ethernet, but no USB3 variant. You'd think USB3 would be the first one they'd support.

Who told you they can't?

USB 3.0 Is...USB 3.0.
Firewire 400/800 is...Firewire 400/800
Thunderbolt is... Protocol Agnostic. It CAN be USB 3.0 & Firewire & Displayport and gigE or god forbid a legitimate docking station for us macbook pro users.

Price is a whole 'nother issue.

 

[dampfdruck]

I should probably care about the thunderbolt thing more than I do but the only thing I was thinking when reading this was "Why are we still putting VGA on laptops?"

I would pay extra to have a VGA port on my MBP. Having to carry the dongle and use it every time I have to project really sucks big time. The Mini Displayport is completely useless. It doesn't plug into any monitor or projector I have ever come across.

Same with the TB port. I wish Apple would concentrate on the important laptop features first (e.g. a HSPA modem) and if there is really nothing else left to do, then they can look at things like TB.

 

[MacosLover]

Sony sucks with theirpropietary garbage.

I don't buy Sony cameras simply because of their M$ (memory stick).

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

I would pay extra to have a VGA port on my MBP. Having to carry the dongle and use it every time I have to project really sucks big time. The Mini Displayport is completely useless. It doesn't plug into any monitor or projector I have ever come across.

Same with the TB port. I wish Apple would concentrate on the important laptop features first (e.g. a HSPA modem) and if there is really nothing else left to do, then they can look at things like TB.

apple likes to make things thin if you haven't noticed

vga =/= thin, so either deal with the dongle or switch to PC because you will never see a new mac laptop with a vga port on it.

 

[AidenShaw]

(1) Apple and Intel co-developed Thunderbolt and Apple was first to introduce it
(2) The USB forum said NOT to combine Thunderbolt and USB

I have never seen a quote from the USB forum about refusing to allow the port to be used, nor any public statement from Apple or Intel to that effect.

This seems to be an urban legend, not a statement of fact.

(Humble apologies will be offered if such statements can be found...)

Exactly. People in video production can't wait for those to come out as they need them NOW!

Unless they're using Windows, in which case they're already using USB 3.0, eSATA, ExpressCards and probably have a mini-tower with disk bays and PCIe slots as well as eSATA.

It's people using Apple laptops and all-in-ones that are handicapped NOW!

because the adapters are $99? The mDP > HDMI adapter is $29 from apple, cheaper from other places

That $29 dongle doesn't have

• a single-sourced, proprietary TBolt controller chip
• a downstream MDP connector
• an upstream MDP connector
• a number of USB 3.0 connectors
• a PCIe motherboard
• a PCIe to USB 3.0 controller chip
• a power brick to make it all work

While all TBolt pricing is a guess (since there are zero devices on the market), I'll bet that $99 is closer than $29 for a TBolt-USB 3.0 hub.

who said you will have to dismount a drive to plug something else in....?

Seriously? Do you think that you can just unplug an active disk to add a device upstream? Agree that it's probably possible to add a downstream device in the friggin' daisy chain....

 

[WiiDSmoker]

Sony sucks with theirpropietary garbage.

I don't buy Sony cameras simply because of their M$ (memory stick).

There's so much irony coming from someone who is a Mac OS Lover.

 

[AppleScruff1]

That's so very true.

Apple knew Sony was going to come up with a solution using the USB, so they decided to undertake their own proprietary B.S. Very logical.

Typical for Apple.

I say Apple more of hte fragmenting problem. Not Sony. Sony is going with a standard already used. We already combined USB with Esata ports. Why put a VERY VERY limited use port on the limited space of laptop when you could just combine it very heavily used port so it is not a waste.

Quite true.

Sony's makes more sense if true anyways.

Exactly.

I don't think I have ever seen a mini displayport on anything other than Apple hardware.
I have seen USB on, well, every PC since 2000. Well done Sony. Stick to common ports.

Of course sticking to common ports makes the most sense.

Makes more sense this way though. Unplugging your monitor to swap hard drives sounds like a pain. Though this fragmentation sure isn't going to help adoption if true. Now who's going to be stuck with converters ? Apple or Sony ?

Apple. They love to sell you an adapter for everything for 29.99 a pop instead of doing anything the normal way.

No Intel and Apple are the ones that created the tech, Sony, as always has to put their own spin on things and is using the USB port in a way that is not recommended by the specification.

Don't you mean that as always Apple puts their own spin on things instead of doing something logically?

Thunderbolt is an inferior display transport. 10 Gbps is lower than both DP 1.2 and HDMI 1.4 specifications. Why anyone would want to use pure Thunderbolt for display signal transport baffles the mind.

Because Apple said it's good.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

I have never seen a quote from the USB forum about refusing to allow the port to be used, nor any public statement from Apple or Intel to that effect.

This seems to be an urban legend, not a statement of fact.

(Humble apologies will be offered if such statements can be found...)

That $29 dongle doesn't have

• a single-sourced, proprietary TBolt controller chip
• a downstream MDP connector
• an upstream MDP connector
• a number of USB 3.0 connectors
• a PCIe motherboard
• a PCIe to USB 3.0 controller chip
• a power brick to make it all work

While all TBolt pricing is a guess (since there are zero devices on the market), I'll bet that $99 is closer than $29 for a TBolt-USB 3.0 hub.




Seriously? Do you think that you can just unplug an active disk to add a device upstream? Agree that it's probably possible to add a downstream device in the friggin' daisy chain....

Well considering the article states that USB-IF said no, it's safe to assume it as fact, i can try to dig up the link if you really need it

perhaps a "hub" will be $99, I'm not envisioning a single "dongle" to be $99, regardless, as you said, all prices are a guess at this point

isn't the point of the daisy chain being able to just add on another device, why would you need to be unplugging anything, i'm confused by your statement?

 

[biallystock]

The simplest design is one that requires the least decisions and least means of failure.

As far as the user is concerned all they want to do is connect their device. They should not have to decide how to do that beyond making the obvious connection with a readily available and universal connector.

That means the design should:

1. have one shape

2. fit in any orientation

3. have the hardware/software negotiate the connection

4. be backwardly compatible

Neither USB, the best model so far, nor any of the innumerable Apple standards fit the bill.

But here's hoping for next time, they get it right.

PS You are all issued an invite to the Apple Museum of Hardware Connectors (AMHC) which covers 5 floors of a new wing on the Smithsonian.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Who cares what Sony (substitute HP, Acer, Dell, it makes no difference) does to their Windows boxes. Big deal.

The fanboys do.

 

[doctor-don]

Look closely at the picture.

Okay. Did that. All I see is another port that appears to be USB.

To make one's point, why isn't a larger image available here or at the links?

To insert USB correctly, look at the plug and the socket before connecting. White insulator UP on one, DOWN on the other.

a readily available and universal connector. ? Not all devices require the same voltage / current. Oops! Lost that camera! .

 

[kalsta]

USB connectors suck. You can't tell their direction by looking on them from the side and you always plug them the wrong way first (at least I do).

But in the end there will be $30 adapters and everyone will be happy (not).

This was what I was about to say. The industry is clinging to an inherently flawed design like… well like the US is clinging to the Imperial measurement system.

Sigh… Is it too much to expect that all the big boys can agree to use the same board and dice when they sit down to play a new game? History would tell us yes, it is too much for them, and the consumer ends up paying for it in the end, with a plethora of incompatible 'standards' and an ugly smorgasbord of different ports on all our machines.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Well, at the very least, if the USB-port implementation takes off to the detriment of the miniDisplayPort approach, it means that Apple users will likely have to use a dongle/converter to use 3rd party devices (read external hard drives, etc), since the OEMs of such devices will clearly cater to the majority of users, not just to Apple.

Thus, it does matter, because, as Apple users, we may have connectivity issues if we forget our magical adapters...

Apple wants to sell you those magical 29.99 adapters. It helps the bottom line and you should be happy to help them out.

Mini display port is a failure

Apple will no doubt sell $40 dongles for the USB thunderbolt to display port adapter AND your sound won't work lol

Humorous how apple makes things messy

It's not humorous, it's actually sad that they do it out of stubbornness.

Sony, this is stupid.

Apple and Intel already established that it would use a formerly Mini DisplayPort. To hijack the USB standard, which the USB consortium already said they could not do, means adoption will be slowed. ThunderBolt is the port to rule them all; adhere to the standard and make that happen.

If Apple did it, would it be sheer genius?

My MBA is not a post PC device. And I don't really see your point. I don't want to unplug my external monitor from my MBA to plug in an HDD.

Good point.

Yeah, I can't understand why they're not learning from past mistakes either.

Cuz Uncle Steve is a stubborn guy and his ego prevails at all costs.

The port highlighted on the Sony is USB 3.0.

LOL! You're probably right and everyone's got their panties in a bunch over nothing.

 

[kalsta]

PS You are all issued an invite to the Apple Museum of Hardware Connectors (AMHC) which covers 5 floors of a new wing on the Smithsonian.

LOL. Sad but true.

2. fit in any orientation

I've wondered about that myself, but assumed there are probably legitimate technical reasons why this can't be done.

But here's hoping for next time, they get it right.

Well, we can only hope. I had hoped Thunderbolt might be it (even though I don't much care for the name). Looking at my 2011 MBP, I think the size and shape of the port is good. There's no confusing the orientation like USB, and the smaller size means greater flexibility with the size of devices, the number of ports, etc.

 

[kalsta]

To insert USB correctly, look at the plug and the socket before connecting. White insulator UP on one, DOWN on the other.

That's a workaround, not a solution. We shouldn't have to look inside the plug and socket before connecting, which is essentially what you have to do with USB.

 

[AidenShaw]

Well considering the article states that USB-IF said no, it's safe to assume it as fact, i can try to dig up the link if you really need it

I don't "need" it, but I find it a bit odd that nobody's posted a link to such a statement on the USB.org website.

perhaps a "hub" will be $99, I'm not envisioning a single "dongle" to be $99, regardless, as you said, all prices are a guess at this point

Any TBolt dongle is going to need most/all of those components (TBolt controller, upstream/downstream MDP connectors, motherboard, PCIe controller for whatever the device is).

If Apple charges $29 for a passive dongle that consists of two connectors and some wires, encased in tacky white plastic - do you think that the price for an active PCIe device with at least two IC controllers will also be $29?

...isn't the point of the daisy chain being able to just add on another device, why would you need to be unplugging anything, i'm confused by your statement?

I suppose if you can randomly unplug 1394 drives from your Apple while they're being written to without any concern, then TBolt would be the same.

On Windows and UNIX, though, that's not a good idea. There are caches and other bits of data that are better to flush to the disk before removing it. (Log-based file systems will usually protect you - but that's a bit like crashing your car because the seat belt will protect you.) If the external disk is part of a RAID volume, unplugging it can and will destroy the data.

Again, the issue is when you add/remove a device *upstream* of the active disk. Downstream operations may be safe (assuming that TBolt doesn't "hiccup" when the chain is rearranged).

Note that, on Windows at least, these issues occur with eSATA drives. For USB and 1394 drives, Windows disables write caching and other performance enhancements so that unexpected disconnects are very unlikely to cause problems. eSATA drives, however, appear to be internal drives and high performance caching is normally on. Unplugging an eSATA cable is exactly the same as yanking a SATA cable off an internal drive - stuff happens.

Since eSATA uses hubs, not daisy chains, in normal operation one would never need to unplug disk "B" in order to unplug disk "A". Therefore, you just dismount disk "A" when you want to remove it. You don't have to worry about disk "B".

 

[Minority_taxi]

New school NOT EQUAL old school

Yeah, and plugging your Thunderbolt device into dozens of USB ports that don't support Thunderbolt and getting confused and angry is really consumer-friendly.

Touché my friend.

Cc.

 

[haruhiko]

Um... the only obscure port that Apple is "successful" is the 30-pin connector of the iDevices...which is in turn a USB port for 99% of the time

 

[AidenShaw]

Yeah, and plugging your Thunderbolt device into dozens of USB ports that don't support Thunderbolt and getting confused and angry is really consumer-friendly.

Touché my friend.

Cc.

LOL

Eleven years ago the FireWire fanbois were making similar arguments about how confused the people would be with USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports/cables/hubs/etc.

Turned out that it wasn't a problem, and more to the point hardly any FireWire fanbois are still around.

The soccer moms also have figured out "up" and "down" in regards to inserting USB devices, so that's another non-issue.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Any TBolt dongle is going to need most/all of those components (TBolt controller, upstream/downstream MDP connectors, motherboard, PCIe controller for whatever the device is).

If Apple charges $29 for a passive dongle that consists of two connectors and some wires, encased in tacky white plastic - do you think that the price for an active PCIe device with at least two IC controllers will also be $29?




I suppose if you can randomly unplug 1394 drives from your Apple while they're being written to without any concern, then TBolt would be the same.

On Windows and UNIX, though, that's not a good idea. There are caches and other bits of data that are better to flush to the disk before removing it. (Log-based file systems will usually protect you - but that's a bit like crashing your car because the seat belt will protect you.) If the external disk is part of a RAID volume, unplugging it can and will destroy the data.

Again, the issue is when you add/remove a device *upstream* of the active disk. Downstream operations may be safe (assuming that TBolt doesn't "hiccup" when the chain is rearranged).

Maybe not $29, but I'm not thinking they will be $99 either. Plus we all know apple marks the prices up, i'm sure we will see decently priced options. Only time will tell, so at this point kind of a dumb argument.

I need to clarify what you mean here man...

Lets say you have your mbp, then an external hard drive plugged into it, and you have your monitor plugged into the hard drive. Upstream you are saying would be plugging in another hard drive to the back of the monitor right? I don't see the problem with that, and if by upstream you mean somewhere in the middle of the chain, why would you want to unplug one accessory to plug in a new one? Sorry man, I guess I'm just not getting what you're talking about, you always (at least should in theory) have a new port to plug in your next accessory on the back of the last accessory plugged in (limited to 6 of course) so i'm just not sure what you need to be plugging in and unplugging things for.

 

[MartiNZ]

Of course sticking to common ports makes the most sense.

Apple. They love to sell you an adapter for everything for 29.99 a pop instead of doing anything the normal way.

Agree with these and pretty much everything else you said! And of course you got '-1'ed for it; awesome system.

I just don't see how TB can win through. There is no substitute for ubiquity in the port space. I start to wonder what port will replace it on the next iMacs. I look forward to it having USB3 more than whatever else they might decide looks good for it.

 

[AidenShaw]

Lets say you have your mbp, then an external hard drive plugged into it, and you have your monitor plugged into the hard drive. Upstream you are saying would be plugging in another hard drive to the back of the monitor right? I don't see the problem with that, and if by upstream you mean somewhere in the middle of the chain, why would you want to unplug one accessory to plug in a new one? Sorry man, I guess I'm just not getting what you're talking about, you always (at least should in theory) have a new port to plug in your next accessory on the back of the last accessory plugged in (limited to 6 of course) so i'm just not sure what you need to be plugging in and unplugging things for.

I have two hard drives - "A" connected to the MBP and to "B", and "B" connected to "A" and the monitor.

I want to remove "A". How can I do that without corrupting the data on "B"?

Inserting drive "C" is no problem - I unplug the monitor from "B", connect drive "C" to drive "B" and the monitor to drive "C".

Removing "C" isn't a problem - dismount "C", unplug the monitor, plug the monitor into "B".

 

[AppleScruff1]

Agree with these and pretty much everything else you said! And of course you got '-1'ed for it; awesome system.

I just don't see how TB can win through. There is no substitute for ubiquity in the port space. I start to wonder what port will replace it on the next iMacs. I look forward to it having USB3 more than whatever else they might decide looks good for it.

I think the TB technology is great. Why not integrate it into the port that 99.9999% of the population uses? No USB 3 support on the Macs is shameful.