Is the HD4000 underpowered for retina screen?

[AppleChampagne]

Wait, The Verge gave below a 9.0 to an Apple product? Completely unexpected.

No matter what the view is on the 15" MacBook retina; nobody can deny it is still the best laptop on the planet today!

The 13" lags, the 15" IMO doesn't... But all you guys have different variances in what you call lag so this is down to personal opinion once again.... All computers lag to some degee.. It only can be validated as lag by the specific user and his own personal determination...

AC

 

[Modernape]

iTunes even lags on the "best for retina" setting when you scroll through albums.

Not on mine it doesn't - smooth as silk.

 

[akdj]

Thanks falcon, I completely forgot that. You da boss.

----------

A. Sorry, its actually trusted, but it might not be to you.
B. Its the 13" Retina MBP (http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/3585082/13-inch-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review) running Mountain Lion!
C. Using it at an Apple Store qualifies me to provide an opinion based on my USAGE of the device.

D. You lost your credibility by ignoring all the above information.

You got me! Winner! Lol...playing for a few minutes at the Apple store qualifies you to offer wisdom and insight on such a special product. Wow, amazing.
I'll bow out now. You've made your point. The verge and ten minutes of 'play' in an Apple store. Glad I didn't run into you before we bought ours

Just for future's sake...when involved in a debate, regardless if its a computer, restaurant, or the color blue....typically it's more beneficial if you actually have experience with whatever it is involved in the 'debate'

I lost credibility? It's more and more obvious each post you rebut me with that its actually YOU that have lost any shred of credibility. I own the machine....as do many others in this thread. I've owned mine going on ten months now and use them to pay our mortgage almost daily. Notice any owners decrying significant lag in this thread? No...ya don't. And there's a reason for that.

Since I've made it abundantly clear in a couple of my posts that I'm a 15" user, not a 13"... I'm not privy to its challenges. That said, my 15" is built with the same iGPU. Bit higher resolution. Same experience. No lag issues or challenges.

Basing your entire argument on a Verge article and a few minutes with one in an Apple store hardly compares with what many of us use our rigs for every day of the week. Yes I've been buying computers for 25 years. No, I'm not the master tech review blog owner...but I absolutely AM an actual owner.

That definitely lends credence to what my view is and my experiences are with the laptop. Even though I'm not a 13" user, it seems fair that someone that doesn't own one should be looked at...or listened to 'less' than an actual, bonafide owner/user...agreed? If so, end of discussion. I'm glad you agree with falcon, but not I when it comes to the exact same discussion. I think that's where this should end.

 

[swerve147]

I've been reading a lot of different thinks on this question. Some say the reason for the UI lag is that the HD4000 is not powerful enough for retina screens and others say it is just fine for retina screens and it is just a OS issue. Therefore I was wondering what you guys think on the subject.

No one knows for sure, but according to Anandtech it's not the GPU. It's mainly the fact that these UI elements that lag are driven by single CPU threaded processes that drag performance down. So the main culprit seems to be the software. Apple hasn't optimized OS X for the demand of driving 4-5MP HiDPI displays yet.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6409/13inch-retina-macbook-pro-review/5

I do believe that a lot of the present issues are related to Apple not GPU accelerating more of the drawing pipeline and as a result, single threaded CPU performance suffering under the load of 4 and 5MP displays. Intel (and AMD) design their CPUs for the types of workloads most of their customers will be running. The vast majority of the market isn't running OS X with 4MP+ panels. A lot of this is related to OS X itself, as you don't have the same scrolling issues under Windows. As we saw in our Surface review, simply making an application (or in this case, an OS) look a certain way can eat up a good amount of CPU time.

There's not much you can do here other than wait for faster hardware or buy the fastest CPU available on whatever system you're considering. Single threaded performance will scale linearly with CPU clock speed, so higher clocked CPUs should deliver smoother scrolling performance. Ultimately just scaling CPU clock is an inefficient way to solve the current UI frame rate issues. Future revisions of OS X will likely shift even more UI workload to the GPU, plus we'll see new microprocessor architectures that will perform better with these types of workloads as well. The only issue is I don't know when either of these things will happen. Haswell should bring a good increase in IPC and maybe even a slight increase in frequency, which will definitely help.

What we'll need however, without any significant changes to OS X is an outright doubling of single threaded CPU performance. In the worst case scenario that could mean that we won't see UI frame rate fixed for years. I doubt it'll be that long, if I had to guess I would say that Haswell will bring a good improvement and around the Broadwell (2014) timeframe is probably we'll see things really get better. I don't have intimate knowledge of Apple's OS X roadmap and I also don't know the instruction mix that's causing this behavior so I can't really say anything for certain, I'm just speculating.

That is not to say that Haswell would not improve performance in general, it absolutely would. But to blame the HD 4000 GPU is dead wrong. If you want a hardware solution that will completely handle these single-threaded CPU tasks without lag Haswell will improve this performance to a degree (Anand thinks Broadwell is where you'll see this mature to a really healthy point). However, a software solution is also viable, which is where Mavericks comes in. Someone here mentioned that Mavericks's Safari performance has increased due to the software offloading the CPU workload to the GPU. If this is the case Haswell or Broadwell may be less of a factor.

Ultimately, we should all be looking at this UI lag/general performance after Mavericks is released, then compare IB vs. Haswell. That is the even "battleground" I think we're all looking for.

 

[munakib]

You got me! Winner! Lol....

Apart from the childish insults in your post, being an owner of a 15" Retina MBP, you dont have a first hand knowledge of how a device with "only" an Intel 4000 graphics processor can handle Retina or NOT - which was the OP's original question. I was giving out information from sources who have tested that specific device, even my 10mins "play" is more reliable than your experience of owning a 15" rMBP which definitely resorts to its GPU anytime its needs the ummph (so technically you are not "an actual owner"). I also made it clear that I planned to upgrade from my MBA 2012 to 13" rMBP once the Haswell chips are in and

FYI I have been handling hardware for over 25 years as well being in the Web Development business. I would appreciate if you can put up an argument based on performance facts regarding Intels 4000 instead of resorting to personal insults (which does reveal lack of maturity but I am proud of you for buying an Apple product).

In the future, please read the OP carefully before jumping in.

 

[FrankB1191]

Every reliable review of the 13" rMBP have clearly pointed out that intel 4000 is not capable enough and people should avoid getting it.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/3585082/13-inch-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review

"Strained performance"

Wait till the Haswell chips with intel 5000 are in, I plan to make my upgrade from my 2012 mba too then.

When that Verge review was done, the rMBP they used had a 2.5 GHz chip, and that has since been replaced with a 2.6 chip. My new 13" rMBP with a 2.6GHz chip runs the Verge page and Facebook with ZERO lag. In fact, I wish my ipad 4 was as smooth as the rMBP!

 

[munakib]

When that Verge review was done, the rMBP they used had a 2.5 GHz chip, and that has since been replaced with a 2.6 chip. My new 13" rMBP with a 2.6GHz chip runs the Verge page and Facebook with ZERO lag. In fact, I wish my ipad 4 was as smooth as the rMBP!

Well thats news to me, on the apple store its still "2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz"?

 

[bill-p]

Well thats news to me, on the apple store its still "2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz"?

There's a 2.6GHz model for $1699. $200 more than the base model, but it comes with a 100MHz CPU bump and a 256GB SSD. If you add the SSD to the base model, it's an extra $200 anyway.

 

[FrankB1191]

I saw the 2.5GHz on Apple's website before we left for the Apple store, but the salesman said they only have the 2.6 and 2.9 in stock at their stores. This might have been one of their silent upgrades...??? All I know is mine is smooth as silk, and I pushed it hard after first seeing this thread. I'm a buyer's remorse type, but can't find fault with the device so far.

We bought the model bill-p mentioned.

 

[bill-p]

That means they don't have the 128GB models at their store.

Anyway, if you think your machine is smooth now, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with Mavericks.

It's silky.

And Apple is getting very close to fixing scrolling and zooming performance for all of the stock applications. I'm getting improvements with Preview as well. (Preview would lag to oblivion if you try to open a vector PDF and you start zooming in)

And for the curious, Maps is a lot smoother on my rMBP than on my iPhone 5. And I consider my iPhone 5 the smoothest iOS device to date, so that says something.

 

[locoboi187]

Every reliable review of the 13" rMBP have clearly pointed out that intel 4000 is not capable enough and people should avoid getting it.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/3585082/13-inch-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review

"Strained performance"

Wait till the Haswell chips with intel 5000 are in, I plan to make my upgrade from my 2012 mba too then.

Mavericks is running everything solid with 0 lag. you're "reliable" reviews are false in terms of intel's 4000 performance. Was there some lag on ML? Barely any after a few updates and using webkit. It's all software my friend.

 

[dastinger]

No we are saying that programs or apps lag.....on every machine in this world. There is bad software or software that doesn't perform as good as others. If I can play a 3d game on say a rMBP or just a MBP and that game plays flawless and games are process/ram intense, but then minimizing the the reminder app(which uses basically nothing and would run on a pc from 1993)then its a laggy terrible performing piece of tech. Come on guy nobody here is stupid or would accept that as a hardware problem.

Does the same happen on cMBPs? Is that a fact? All I know is that it happens on rMBPs. I'm amazed by the machine since day one (bought it July 2012) and would not trade it for nothing. But stating there isn't any lag does not make sense to me. Hardware or software related, there is lag. The reports about it are enough proof imo.

It doesn't lag. If you don't own one, haven't used one as those of us that do everyday...you shouldn't be posting in this thread. If you're interested in 'lag' on HiDPI monitors, look no further than Windows 8 and the Surface pro...with any software other than native Windows apps. Software companies are working thier collective asses off to being their software up to date for high resolution displays. Apple is doing everything they can...and working hand in hand with Intel to deliver an integrated, low power, all day solution to the masses. They've done well. IF there was this 'lag' some of you are talking about across the board, mayhem would ensue....Apple's discussion board would have threads three miles long discussing it...but instead, we've got MBAs able to play, albeit at medium settings...triple A games.
There are poorly coded sites...sites that'll lag on the fastest custom built systems with high end graphics cards. It's irrelevant. It's not Apple's fault. It's on the developers. I've got a 2011 MBA that runs a TB display at 2560x1440 just fine. That's an Intel 3000!

Buy one. Use one. You'll be blown away. It's hard to believe this argument still exists a year later and after countless computer nerds like myself of 25 years buying gear....exclaiming its hands down the best piece of computing gear I've ever purchased. That seems to be the general consensus amongst true owners of the machines.

J

Read your comment until "If you don't own one". I do, it's one year old and I love it.

 

[falconeight]

Does the same happen on cMBPs? Is that a fact? All I know is that it happens on rMBPs. I'm amazed by the machine since day one (bought it July 2012) and would not trade it for nothing. But stating there isn't any lag does not make sense to me. Hardware or software related, there is lag. The reports about it are enough proof imo.


Read your comment until "If you don't own one". I do, it's one year old and I love it.

cMBP takes 38 seconds to boot up compared to 12 to 14 for the rMBP or MBA. That 5400 HDD beach balls for long and way more often than any lag or stutter that you might see on a rMBP. I myself haven't noticed any lag that actually gets me to raise an eyebrow. You can put more ram and ssd in a cMBP but then it comes out to the same price as a retina but the screen is still bad.

 

[dastinger]

cMBP takes 38 seconds to boot up compared to 12 to 14 for the rMBP or MBA. That 5400 HDD beach balls for long and way more often than any lag or stutter that you might see on a rMBP. I myself haven't noticed any lag that actually gets me to raise an eyebrow. You can put more ram and ssd in a cMBP but then it comes out to the same price as a retina but the screen is still bad.

And here we go again talking about stuff I never mentioned. Of corse a cMBP won't be as much of a beast as a rMBP. I never said otherwise. And that helps with what people are saying here. Such a powerful machine should not lag. Period. And that's what at stake here.

 

[falconeight]

And here we go again talking about stuff I never mentioned. Of corse a cMBP won't be as much of a beast as a rMBP. I never said otherwise. And that helps with what people are saying here. Such a powerful machine should not lag. Period. And that's what at stake here.

So what are you saying? Its the same processor and ram as the cMBP. Other than a ssd what makes it so powerful? Or are you saying that the cMBP or MBA doesn't lag in certain programs? Why is it so powerful?

 

[akdj]

Apart from the childish insults in your post, being an owner of a 15" Retina MBP, you dont have a first hand knowledge of how a device with "only" an Intel 4000 graphics processor can handle Retina or NOT - which was the OP's original question. I was giving out information from sources who have tested that specific device, even my 10mins "play" is more reliable than your experience of owning a 15" rMBP which definitely resorts to its GPU anytime its needs the ummph (so technically you are not "an actual owner"). I also made it clear that I planned to upgrade from my MBA 2012 to 13" rMBP once the Haswell chips are in and

FYI I have been handling hardware for over 25 years as well being in the Web Development business. I would appreciate if you can put up an argument based on performance facts regarding Intels 4000 instead of resorting to personal insults (which does reveal lack of maturity but I am proud of you for buying an Apple product).

In the future, please read the OP carefully before jumping in.

My apologies if I 'insulted you'. It's definitely a question mark when someone chimes in with a link to a verge article exclaiming the machine lags and the thing to do is wait until the Haswell update. Your comment to me about losing credibility was what set me off....I've been using the 15" for almost a year and in 80-90% of general use application of the machine the 4000 is doing the work. I've got gfxCardStatus but have found I don't need to change the GPU for any sort of 'regular' work. The 4000 performs in parity with the 650m while scrolling or general UI animation. I'm more than familiar with the performance of the 4000...and I own an Air with the 3000 that is often hooked to an ATD. That said, I'll stick to my guns. Ten minutes in an Apple store isn't enough time to come to a valid conclusion on performance....of really anything. Phone, home, computer....it doesn't matter. I'd have thought by now....with all the other 'owners' in this thread telling you that they aren't experiencing detrimental lag...and The Solution has been available in nightly builds of safari that it would be enough....enough for you to understand that lag isn't an issue, challenge or will it ever be solved by a more powerful GPU. Software has been written to date for lower resolution displays. Apple, almost magically, figured out a way to double the pixel density maintaining the same 'resolutions' we are all used to. Now it's up to app and software developers to utilize XCode and update THEIR software to take full advantage of this wonder in engineering

To say the rMBP is anything less than genius is silly. If you've been involved with computers two and half decades, I don't understand how you've come to the conclusion you have. It's beyond me. As you can see from the rest of the 'owners' in this thread....the rMBP is an amazing machine. 13 or 15. Doesn't matter.
It's revolutionary...and hopefully the rest of the industry is in the same boat. As Anand mentions, 2013 SHOULD be the year of HiDPI!

Does the same happen on cMBPs? Is that a fact? All I know is that it happens on rMBPs. I'm amazed by the machine since day one (bought it July 2012) and would not trade it for nothing. But stating there isn't any lag does not make sense to me. Hardware or software related, there is lag. The reports about it are enough proof imo.


Read your comment until "If you don't own one". I do, it's one year old and I love it.

Which model do you have? It sounds as though you've seen 'lag' but you still enjoy the machine. Amazed since the day you bought it.

I can honestly say...the ONLY place a see any kind of UI frame drop is on Facebook while scrolling fast up or down. Something the casual user isn't going to do, nor notice.

Just trying to understand where this 'lag' issue is prevalent and/or noticeable. In Premier, After Effects, Smoke, Audition and photoshop....the main programs I'm using daily....I just don't see it. Nor do I notice anything while scrolling through websites....other than poorly coded, overly obnoxious flash sites (Ars, FB, and the verge are excellent examples)--- but that said, I can bring my core i7 2011 2.4Ghz machine to its knees in the same situations @ 1920x1200

J

 

[sofianito]

And here we go again talking about stuff I never mentioned. Of corse a cMBP won't be as much of a beast as a rMBP. I never said otherwise. And that helps with what people are saying here. Such a powerful machine should not lag. Period. And that's what at stake here.

I would recommend you to not waste your time with him... He just argues for the sake of the argument... He reminds me the Fanboyism of the guy in the videos below, but at least the latter is funny and entertains you...

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 1

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 2

 

[falconeight]

I would recommend you to not waste your time with him... He just argues for the sake of the argument... He reminds me the Fanboyism of the guy in the videos below, but at least the latter is funny and entertains you...

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 1

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 2

So what are you trying to say? That you really have no argument other than someone(me)is a fanboy. Come on guy lets grow up and talk real facts. I have yet to see a modern Mac that lags doing normal tasks. But yes you can get anything to lag if you overwork it. The beach ball means the cup is working and yes it has been seen on all macs.

 

[jcpb]

Paragraphs plz. I can't read any of what you wrote.

It's revolutionary...and hopefully the rest of the industry is in the same boat. As Anand mentions, 2013 SHOULD be the year of HiDPI!

It's not revolutionary (only the screen is, everything else is meh), also the year of HiDPI for laptops officially started LAST YEAR with the 15".

I just don't see it.

I do see lag even with 10.8.4, it's just not noticeable enough to bother me. Try a 800MHz first-gen netbook armed with Vista, when they weren't called netbooks initially.

 

[Badrottie]

That's my question as well. I need a laptop for school in Sept, and I want the 13 inch retina macbook.

I would like to just get one now, but if there will be meaningful increases in gpu power and battery life, I will wait and get the 13 retina mbp in Sept-Oct... but it will be annoying to wait those extra weeks into the school year.

I've read both that the HD 4000 is totally fine and that it is less than one might wish.

We'll see.

13" MBP is too much to carry around at campus…why not try with 13" MBA?

 

[sofianito]

13" MBP is too much to carry around at campus…why not try with 13" MBA?

13" MBP is too much to carry around at campus??? You need to eat this

 

[jcpb]

13" MBP is too much to carry around at campus…why not try with 13" MBA?

During my 3rd and 4th year in university I had to carry along an iBook G4 12" and power adapter alongside 3-4 textbooks, each weighing at least one pound, and other school material. "too much to carry around at campus" lol.

and btw i had a health condition that prevented me from playing sports alongside my classmates, take that.

 

[bill-p]

OSX 10.9 Mavericks Developer Preview 3

Intel HD 4000 shows 1024MB (1GB) VRAM

So it looks like Apple is doubling down on GPU performance now.

 

[dastinger]

I would recommend you to not waste your time with him... He just argues for the sake of the argument... He reminds me the Fanboyism of the guy in the videos below, but at least the latter is funny and entertains you...

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 1

**** Apple Fanatics Say, Part 2

Oh, alright. Thanks for the warning.

OSX 10.9 Mavericks Developer Preview 3

Intel HD 4000 shows 1024MB (1GB) VRAM

So it looks like Apple is doubling down on GPU performance now.

What? Why would Apple do such a thing if everything runs smoothly on Retinas?

 

[nealh]

I have a MBPr 13in with i7 2.9ghz with 512ssd(apple refurb). I was worried about lag but after nearly 3mo I have seen none.

I use the default resolution and do not scale the screen. I do not play games on my laptop.

I have had no lag with video playback or any web browing. Only issue I see is using parallels with the limited ram sharing(13in only has 8gb of ram so Win7 is only getting 1gb of ram on my setup). But having access to Win7 is a golden value.

The screen is amazing and I love my purchase. Buy with no worries.