I'd rather see a 15" air in the spot where you put the 13" nonretina. That would actually be a good product at a reasonable price.
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Is the (Mid 2012) the last rev of the cMBP?
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I'd rather see a 15" air in the spot where you put the 13" nonretina. That would actually be a good product at a reasonable price.
Cost is a factor too.
For spinning hard drives, thunderbolt is a waste (unless it's an array of spinning drives, such as a RAID10 box holding 4 drives or something). Spinning drives can't saturate USB 3.0, much less thunderbolt. SSD's are another story though.
So, buying new, USB 3.0 makes a whole lot more sense.
However, there are a LOT of folks out there using FW800. It's twice as fast as FW400, and FW400 was faster than USB 2.0. They spent a lot on a variety of drives and enclosures, so it's not likely that they are going to rush to upgrade.
Where thunderbolt is really going to shine is high end video and photography markets, being able to use thunderbolt to attach to large arrays, or to attach to SSD's. I already know of a couple videographers and photographers using daisy-chained SSD's in the field to offload content from cameras onto. Thunderbolt is great for that, as it really cuts into their workflow time over FW800.
Were we talking non-retina unibody MacBook Pros with hard drives, maybe. Otherwise, I wouldn't hold your breath.
Yeah, that REALLY won't happen.
I think the air will replace the non-retina, but I don't think it'll be right away.
However, once the price of the retina drops a bit (The price of the retina display, and the price of the mSATA SSD's should drop substantially soon), it just doesn't make sense to maintain the air, retina, and non-retina. Despite the advantages of the non-retina, when the price gap closes the advantages of the non-retina become marginalized (obviously, folks are willing to pay hundreds more for the retina, so obviously those 'advantages' are moot to most consumers!)
The Air and the Retina make the most sense, as a product line. I think with some mild tweaking Apple could fit a decent GPU in the 13" retina too. So we'll have a 13" and 15" retina with discrete GPUs, and perhaps quad core CPU's in both (dreaming perhaps). And the 11.6" and 13" air running Intel HD graphics and i5 dual cores.
However, once the price of the retina drops a bit (The price of the retina display, and the price of the mSATA SSD's should drop substantially soon), it just doesn't make sense to maintain the air, retina, and non-retina. Despite the advantages of the non-retina, when the price gap closes the advantages of the non-retina become marginalized (obviously, folks are willing to pay hundreds more for the retina, so obviously those 'advantages' are moot to most consumers!)
The Air and the Retina make the most sense, as a product line. I think with some mild tweaking Apple could fit a decent GPU in the 13" retina too. So we'll have a 13" and 15" retina with discrete GPUs, and perhaps quad core CPU's in both (dreaming perhaps). And the 11.6" and 13" air running Intel HD graphics and i5 dual cores.
Is the (Mid 2012) the last rev of the cMBP?
Well, I surely have NO idea, same as others posting here too I am sure.. Hopefully there are Dozens of Apple Executives just waiting to reply.. Hopefully..
Well, I surely have NO idea, same as others posting here too I am sure.. Hopefully there are Dozens of Apple Executives just waiting to reply.. Hopefully..
Based off what? This forum?
If you're going by solely this forum, over 50% of buyers are going retina. In the real world however, I'm seeing tons of new 2012 MBPs that aren't retina. I've seen maybe two retinas in the wild, both in one of my classes last quarter. Haven't seen another one since.
Despite what many people think, a $2200 starting price 15" rMBP is NOT selling like a $1200 13" MBP or Air, nor even the 15" cMBP. It's amazing how people on this forum think that everyone can just pull hundreds of dollars out of their arse. Real world people.(You ask for advice on this forum for a new HDD, but then everyone recommends $500 SSDs like everyone can drop hundreds of $$$$ on storage)
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Well to be fair, Apple computers are not budget computers. Owners of Apple computers are willing to spend thousands on a commodity other consumers spend less than $500 on, because of certain advantages. It's not unreasonable to assume those same people also don't mind spending $400 on a 512GB SSD. It's not always true, obviously, but still. You also need to consider how you word things. If someone asks "What is the best computer for FCP video editing", well, that's a 12 core Mac Pro! Can an i7 iMac or even a dual core 13" MacBook Pro do it? Not as well, but yes! But the question was 'what is the best'. If they asked 'What is the cheapest', we'd tell them they can get by with a 13" MacBook Pro or purchase a used Mac Pro on eBay!
As far as 'based off what', I mean, you don't honestly believe everyone on here is lying and nobody has ever bought a retina MacBook Pro do you? This is all some elaborate Apple PR? I don't think the Retina is flying off the shelves, but it's quite obvious from this forum and others, as well as the general excitement around the retina models in some media outlets, that there are people out there willing to pay hundreds more for the retina model. Also, 4Q12 sales numbers show us that Apple had a spike in the MacBook sales line after the release of the Retina, and the Retina model represented a 6% spike in Mac sales. It's not flying off the shelves, but it's making Apple close to a Billion bucks on it's own.
I see THAT all the time on here. People ask for the fastest/best but want to pay the cheapest. Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it's not possible. So they get frustrated because they have a $100 budget and are demanding $1000 results. I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm still going to recommend what the poster asks for, even if it's expensive. You can help folks out by letting them know what your budget is for what your asking for. Sometimes, there just isn't a cheap option. You want a 10 second boot time and 512GB of storage? That doesn't come cheap, it just doesn't.
Anyway, point is, that's what I was saying anyway. The price on the retina WILL come down, making the non-retina less relevant. Of course, your anecdotal experiences don't really matter much. I've never met anyone else with a 13" Mid-2012 MBP. So that must mean I have the only one Apple sold, right? We'll see what the sales numbers are. I suspect the retina sold well, but I also suspect the non-retina sold better.
The biggest advantage of the non-Retina, is price. Followed by a close second, upgradability and serviceability. The second is irrelevant for many consumers anyway, and is becoming more and more irrelevant. When the price of the retina MBP drops, then the chief advantage to going non-Retina suddenly goes away, and it becomes an issue of upgradability vs weight, size, and display. Some will choose the first, more will choose the second.
Well, we don't know the circumstances of your anecdotal evidence. I live in on a college campus. I have plenty of friends and family with 2012 cMBPs, and observe by daily experiences riding buses, trains, seeing the different shops. Of all the people I've asked, there is plenty of 2012 cMBPs. However, for all we know you only leave the house once a month.
While I agree that once price of the retina drops, it definitely replace the non-retina,(My next MBP will definitely be a retina) the retina sales spike is most likely because it's a complete refresh. I suspect the same thing happened when the non-retina first came out as well. So this early spike doesn't really matter much. You can only make a real conclusion after years of prolong sales.
I also understand that Macs aren't budget computers. I paid the amount I paid for my MBP because it is of much higher quality than the dells I was used to. However, just because I spent 2 grand on a computer does not necessarily mean I can spend another $500 on an SSD. If I could spend another $500 on just storage, I might as well have got a Retina and called it a day.(Though I would still would have waited a few refreshes before I got the retina, but you see my point) Not to mention that I need my 1TB of storage. I live in a dorm can't have big external drives taking up precious desk space. no way I can afford a $1300 768 SSD. And it's still less than a TB.
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My point exactly. Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Just because you haven't seen very many rMBP's doesn't mean people aren't buying them. And, for the record, I get out of the house quite a bit, I drive about 50,000 miles a year and interact with quite a few people every day for my profession
However, ya just don't see a lot of Mac owners out here. I don't live in an urban area, so mass transit doesn't happen for me so I don't get to observe that many people like that! Anecdotal evidence is just that... anecdotal. It doesn't mean anything. Anyway, what was your question before? A link to the thread? I'm sure it was all harmless, but if you asked something like, "I want a faster hard drive" or "What's the best upgrade for my MBP" then, yeah, an SSD is going to be a logical answer. How are they supposed to know what your budget is if you don't tell them?
Finally the 'refresh' argument for the sales spike doesn't make a lot of sense. For starters, the non-retinas were already out, so spec wise, aside from the display (and the SSD I suppose) they are identical. However, people still bought quite a few retina MBP's in the last quarter of 2012.
I think, more than anything, Apple firmly believes that the retina MacBook Pro and literally everything that is to set it apart from the non-retina unibody MacBook Pro represents the future of not only the MacBook Pro line, but notebooks in general. Whether we agree or not, they have their own opinions and they seem like they're going to stick to them and guide consumers toward what they want rather than build products around requests.
The only exception that might be made to this rule, again, is the 13" non-retina model. Apple might keep solely that one around to more cautiously and carefully ease customers into the newer design, though I could similarly see them not. The non-retina 15" model is definitely seeing discontinuation this year though for sure.
On a college campus, where most people are lucky to be able to even afford a decent computer to take to college, I am not surprised that retina MacBook Pro turnout at your university is currently small to none.
Why so hostile?
Apple could've retooled the cMBP without the ODD with a 2nd storage bay and either optional dual-cpu or 680GTX graphic card. THEN people would believe they're not dropping it.
I still think it's going to take a lot to drop the 13" non Retina. That's Apples far-and-away best seller.
Something else I could see, is a shift of the entire line to the 'retina' design (all flash, thin and light, etc.) But the 'retina' display being an option, similar to how the Matte high-res display is on the 15" MBP. It wouldn't JUST be BTO, Apple would certainly sell them in stores pre-configured that way, but still. Seems to make sense. Unless there is a substantial price drop, I see too much of a gap in the line between the air and the retina. Some believe the Retina has more value. Fine... but more Value or not it's STILL more expensive. $900~$1200 has been a historically good price point for Apple. I don't believe they will try to fill that price point (and it's big cousin, the $1500 15") with a $999 Air, vs a near $2000 Retina. They are either going to have to drop the price to fill the gap, or keep SOMETHING on the line there.
Something else I could see, is a shift of the entire line to the 'retina' design (all flash, thin and light, etc.) But the 'retina' display being an option, similar to how the Matte high-res display is on the 15" MBP. It wouldn't JUST be BTO, Apple would certainly sell them in stores pre-configured that way, but still. Seems to make sense. Unless there is a substantial price drop, I see too much of a gap in the line between the air and the retina. Some believe the Retina has more value. Fine... but more Value or not it's STILL more expensive. $900~$1200 has been a historically good price point for Apple. I don't believe they will try to fill that price point (and it's big cousin, the $1500 15") with a $999 Air, vs a near $2000 Retina. They are either going to have to drop the price to fill the gap, or keep SOMETHING on the line there.
Since 13" retina does have possibility for a 5mm hybrid drive that could shave-off around 300$ bringing price to 1299$, which is not such a gap from 999$ to i.e. haswell 15" retina w/o discrete gpu for 1699$?
Very good point. MagSafe 2 as well, given that this generation of MacBook Air didn't really need it as it had the room for the original MagSafe and given that the 2012 MacBook Air otherwise shares the same chassis as the 2011 one.
The only price-point that would be left vacant if Apple discontinued all non-retina MacBook Pros would be the one held by the low-end 15" model and the one held by the high-end 13" model. The low-end 13" model and the MacBook Air are pretty close to each other in terms of real-world performance. Apple can kill that one off fairly easily. If they left the high-end 13" non-retina for one more year, that'd probably fix most of the gaps that would exist there. Otherwise, the lack of the low-end 15" non-retina could be solved by that third lower-end 15" retina that is powered solely by Haswell's Intel HD 4600 and sold for the same price point. Done and done.
It's not so much that retina is essential as much as it is the obvious next advancement in that technology. We've obviously stopped using black and white TVs and moved to color just as we've moved from VHS all the way up to Blu-Ray. Right now, it's a novelty, but make no mistake, it IS the future of computer displays. That being said, from a practical standpoint, today, retina is a silly waste of money.
This has been an interesting thread, where I've actually read through every reply and haven't face-palmed once.
I think a lot of the arguments that can be made (legitimately) have already been stated, so at this point, I'm just going to toss my hat in with the "cMBP is not being refreshed this year" crowd. I can see the possibility of the 13" model sticking around, but I still think Apple wants it gone ASAP, and they really couldn't care less what consumers think about that.
One of the things that sticks out to me here is that I don't think some of you guys have been using Apple products very long and thus aren't aware of their history with replacing old technology. I see these arguments for the older tech all the time with each passing year, but the end result is almost (there was only one exception I believe, with firewire back in '08-'09) always the same: Apple pushes forward and if they end up losing some consumers as a result, they don't seem to mind.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the ability to easily replace stuff on your laptop is actually only a relatively recent thing for them. I loved my '08 Unibody, and I love my '12 13" Pro (although I hate the screen, I don't know how you guys can stand it if you read stuff all day on it) from a user pov, but I've also owned iBooks where replacing the hard drive was only possible by literally disassembling the entire laptop (or very, very close to it, my god, what a nightmare!). This is a path Apple has gone down before with their portable lines, and I'm confident they don't mind going down it again, although it does make me slightly sad.
That's all I have to add to this. Either way, we'll see what happens in a few months time, and I'm sure someone out there will be upset regardless of what happens. Oh well, that's just how Apple works.
I think a lot of the arguments that can be made (legitimately) have already been stated, so at this point, I'm just going to toss my hat in with the "cMBP is not being refreshed this year" crowd. I can see the possibility of the 13" model sticking around, but I still think Apple wants it gone ASAP, and they really couldn't care less what consumers think about that.
One of the things that sticks out to me here is that I don't think some of you guys have been using Apple products very long and thus aren't aware of their history with replacing old technology. I see these arguments for the older tech all the time with each passing year, but the end result is almost (there was only one exception I believe, with firewire back in '08-'09) always the same: Apple pushes forward and if they end up losing some consumers as a result, they don't seem to mind.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the ability to easily replace stuff on your laptop is actually only a relatively recent thing for them. I loved my '08 Unibody, and I love my '12 13" Pro (although I hate the screen, I don't know how you guys can stand it if you read stuff all day on it) from a user pov, but I've also owned iBooks where replacing the hard drive was only possible by literally disassembling the entire laptop (or very, very close to it, my god, what a nightmare!). This is a path Apple has gone down before with their portable lines, and I'm confident they don't mind going down it again, although it does make me slightly sad.
That's all I have to add to this. Either way, we'll see what happens in a few months time, and I'm sure someone out there will be upset regardless of what happens. Oh well, that's just how Apple works.
As a person whose first Macintosh computer had a 25MHz processor, I can safely say I've owned Apple products for a little while, and I agree.
The floppy disk, serial ports, SCSI.. PowerPC processors, some technologies that they touted as unequivocally better than the competition they dropped like a hot potato as soon as something better came along. I was in the crowd who wondered why PC's used ATA drives when SCSI was so much faster, and SCSI continued to be faster until ATA became Serial ATA. BAM, Apple didn't blink, we had SATA in our Macs. I shook my head as PowerPC benchmarks blew away windows machines, when a low end Macintosh outperformed the latest and scaldest, er, greatest Pentium, but then suddenly Intel started developing chips that were faster and cooler than PowerPC chips, and their roadmap showed multi-core processors that a multi-core PowerPC machine just couldn't keep up with, and, it seemed like PowerPC was hitting the ceiling in terms of heat and performance. Boom! Steve Jobs showed the world a "Power Mac" running a Pentium 4 and shortly after we had Intel Core processors in our Macintoshes.
That said, although I agree completely with what you have to say, I just don't see that being the case this time. I think we've got another year. It's obvious that Apple has found at that the display frontier is one of those places where they can be king for a couple of years before ANYONE can even PRETEND to come close. What other people sell as 30" $1,000 high end IPS monitors, Apple crams into a 13" display! However, they STILL sell the iPod classic, they STILL support FireWire, and they even retained support for floppy drives in every OS all the way up until Lion, despite dropping the floppy drive while the PC's still thought they were in their prime.
Sometimes Apple hangs on to really good products even if they aren't on the bleeding edge. This 'feels' like one of those cases to me. I think worst case, it won't get refreshed but it'll continue to be sold for another year (much like the iPod classic remains unchanged from years ago but is still manufactured and sold). However, I tend to think it'll get refreshed. I'm waiting to be proven wrong and I'm okay with that, the only thing for sure about Apple is that nothing is for sure about Apple. I remember back when you could tell someone was a 'noob' around Apple products when they said "Will iTunes come to Windows?" and we all said "LOL, you're new here huh?". But, then Steve Jobs popped up that "Hell Froze Over" slide and released iTunes for Windows. He even demoed it on a machine running Windows XP!
I wouldn't have responded to someone who logged onto an Apple-oriented forum and called people "iSheep" because they like retina displays. Surely once HP or Samsung puts a display with a few extra pixels, those same people will be crowing about how innovative it is.
http://www.techspot.com/news/50676-...hould-be-2560x1600-dreams-linus-torvalds.html
and Linus Torvalds.
I don't know what exactly is your problem, but half the 15" PCs have 1366*786 screens, and why is a better screen a BAD thing is beyond me.
After reading some more posts I'm back with another say. I think apple will probably do what they did to the 2010 macbook where keep it available to the education market for a further year with no upgrades. Also in relation to my last point about magsafe 2 (which everyone seems to be referring to lol) the 13inch and 15inch cmbp don't have the asymmetrical fan which both the 11 and 13 inch airs have and of corse the rmbp have them as well. Also the cmbp don't support power nap in 10.8 unlike the all flash based airs and rmbp. Even if you change the HDD for an SSD the cmbp still wont support powernap.
Doesn't matter. 1080p was more expensive when it got out. People have been trying to make a better screen since forever. Saying only "iSheep" buy it is pretty stupid. Why do we bother shooting with 8K cameras anyway? 480p oughta be enough right?
Apple has given into consumer demand from time to time, but here I think they're pushing an agenda and, you're right, they'll go down the path forged by the newest design of MacBook Pros and they won't look back.
That said, I don't think that Apple is ever going to regress to the point of in-accessibility that existed in their iBook line. I think that part of what they learned in switching to the unibody design in the first place was how much better it was to design computers that way. So as long as they have that, I don't see them regressing that far back. And really, barring the RAM, battery, and the bottom plate screws, it's no harder to replace components than it was/is in the non-retina design. I don't imagine that changing, though I very much fear not being able to remove or replace the SSD drives in the future and having them be soldered to the logic board like the RAM is as that would really be bad.
Apple has tended to retain products without updating them for two reasons. One, because they feel that they have no reason to add anything to them. Case in point, the current Mac Pro and iPod classic. Two, because they need to keep it around in order to usher in a transition to a newer product that would otherwise be too soon for a majority of the target market audience to otherwise accept. The iBook G4 and the Power Mac G5 fell into this category briefly at the tail end of 2006 after the Intel transition was completed. The white MacBook fell in to this category for a good while for the education market after it was discontinued from general sale.
While the non-retina MacBook Pros did receive a tech spec bump, it is likely that they weren't discontinued and replaced by retina models outright because the 13" is the most popular Mac and the 15" is used regularly by professionals, often times more frequently than iMacs or Mac Pros; in both cases, it's a sensitive issue, and a staggered transition is likely more appropriate.
I'll agree that the non-retina MacBook Pro is a fantastic product and is worthy of as long of a stay of execution as Apple will provide, but the retina is its natural successor and when it is obvious to Apple that we're ready to complete the transition away from the non-retina design, they will kick it to the curb just like that. While they might keep the 13" around for those that still need more time; my guess is that the 15" model will be gone in favor of the new models. Again, making a model with no discrete graphics and selling it at a lower price point (akin to the 2.53 GHz Mid 2009 model) will put at ease most concerns of a gap in the line-up.
I tend to not buy into anyone who is either biased towards Apple or competing products or against Apple or competing products. I find that anyone with such an absolute bias doesn't know what they're talking about because they are limiting an entire sector of technology. Case in point, I own a PC tower that I built, an Asus Ultrabook, and a MacBook Pro. On the mobile side, I have an iPad, an iPod touch, and a Nexus phone. I obviously don't pick sides. Still though, you can't fight ignorance with ignorance.
The 2012 MacBook Airs have the asymmetrical fans? This is news to me. Do you have proof of this?
Secondly, the non-retina MacBook Pros lack PowerNap as it actually entails technology designed by Intel and built onto the logic board. It has surprisingly little to do with whether you have an SSD or a hard drive.
I feel like this is a solid indicator that when Haswell comes out, the non-retina MacBook Pro (at least the 15" iteration) will be discontinued. What say you all?
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/1...ricing-drops-pricing-on-high-end-macbook-air/
Perhaps it's time to wake up this thread in light of this new information.
Some facts:
1. 13" non-retina models remain unchanged.
2. Low-end 13" retina model and customization options therein also remain unchanged. High-end one is updated with faster Ivy Bridge Processors.
3. High-end 15" non-retina model removed; CTO options previously provided in said model are consolidated into the CTO ordering of the low-end model.
4. All 15" retina models have refreshed CPU specs; same GPUs as before; higher-end model comes with 16GB of RAM standard.
Thoughts?
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/1...ricing-drops-pricing-on-high-end-macbook-air/
Perhaps it's time to wake up this thread in light of this new information.
Some facts:
1. 13" non-retina models remain unchanged.
2. Low-end 13" retina model and customization options therein also remain unchanged. High-end one is updated with faster Ivy Bridge Processors.
3. High-end 15" non-retina model removed; CTO options previously provided in said model are consolidated into the CTO ordering of the low-end model.
4. All 15" retina models have refreshed CPU specs; same GPUs as before; higher-end model comes with 16GB of RAM standard.
Thoughts?