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..... There's nothing unfair about it, since each state passes their own other laws, as well.
Not unfair... just inefficient. It actually means you are paying more for products since retailers have so much more paperwork to track and to file, and to audit.
Yes, and different cities and counties also have different property tax rates as well. Typically you know this when you buy your property, so there are no surprises.

That's a bit different since for the most part each property owner is dealing with only one property tax bill. Which gets paid once a year, for a set amount.

But a retailer with just two stores could need to deal with 6 tax codes (one store in each of two states). Each tax code includes different rates and taxes different items. And one with a dozen stores widely located... ?

Earlier this year there was an article in a Vancouver newspaper about BC retailers trying to expand into Washington state and Oregon. The administration to handle sales tax for the 3 US stores was as much as it was to handle the Canadian sales taxes for 22 stores in BC and Alberta. They just passed those admin costs onto the American consumers, of course.

It's one of the reasons that online retailers have tried to resist the sales tax thing. It's not just that they have to collect and remit the taxes, but they may need deal with scores and scores of tax codes - which means increasing admin costs to deal with the paperwork. And they need to store the records for about 5 or 7 years (whatever each jurisdiction dictates) for tax audits.

In some low tax rate jurisdictions, the cost of administrating the tax can be sizeable chunk of the tax amount actually collected.
 
it all depends on what i am shopping for. books, electronics, games, etc are all easy to buy online and usually the small wait (Amazon Prime FTW) is no big deal. However, clothes, food, and things of that nature are obviously bought locally always.
 
That's a bit different since for the most part each property owner is dealing with only one property tax bill. Which gets paid once a year, for a set amount.

But a retailer with just two stores could need to deal with 6 tax codes (one store in each of two states). Each tax code includes different rates and taxes different items. And one with a dozen stores widely located... ?

You set up a discussion with two completely different scenarios so that you would have two completely different outcomes.

A property owner with one property pays one property tax rate, and a retailer with one store collects sales tax based on one rate.

A property owner with more than one property in different jurisdictions may pay different property tax rates. A retailer with more than one store in different jurisdictions may collect sales tax based on different tax rates.

If you're going to fabricate a scenario for the sake of argument, please keep it consistent. Besides, I doubt one store manager is responsible for collecting and remitting the sales taxes from every store in the chain; I suspect there's a different manager from each store that handles that.
 
You set up a discussion with two completely different scenarios so that you would have two completely different outcomes.
....

I'm not the one who introduced property taxes into the discussion, so I'm not sure what the issue is....

But since it was introduced, I merely responded to it.

Property taxes are very different than sales taxes.

Most stores don't pay property taxes directly. The land owner pays the taxes. Most stores rent their premises, so it's the landlord paying the property taxes and they are rolled into the lease payments.

If a store does happen to own it's own premises it gets a bill from the city/county once a year with the amount owing. At least in Canada, a landowner gets one property tax bill that combines the amount owed to all levels of government. Depending on where you live you send the money to a municipality or the province and then they forward the funds to the other taxing authorities. In our case we send it to the Province, who then send it to the School Board, the Islands Trust, the Regional Government, the Water Board, the Sewer Board, The Fire Department, and - though we live out in the country - Street Lights - the closest of which is several kilometres away.

However.... Sales taxes are a different beast altogether.

A single store in the US could be sending taxes to 3 different levels of government: City/Village; County; State. The store doesn't know how much to send until they calculate it. Items that are taxed may be different at all three levels, so a cash register has to be programmed.

For example - takes shoes (hypothetically).
-The City wants 1.5%, the County wants 2%, and the State wants 2.5%.
-Except if they are kids shoes....
-Now the City wants 1.5%, the County wants 1% (lots of voters with kids), and the State has made them tax-free.

Open a 2nd store in a different City in the same County, and one of those tax rates changes. Open 3rd store in a different County, same State and now HQ is dealing with 6 different tax codes (that is - different rates and different taxable items). At least in this scenario there is one tax code common to all three stores, and one common to two stores.

Open a 4th store in a different State you now add 3 new tax codes - i.e. 9 different tax codes for 4 stores. All of which require programming cash registers, training staff as to which items are taxable and which aren't, and maintaining records to show that in fact you purchased enough stock of children's shoes to sell at the preferred 0% rate. Depending on the jurisdiction sales taxes may need to be calculated and remitted monthly, quarterly, or annually. Perhaps all 4 stores have different remitting schedules.

Meanwhile.... once a year the land owner gets a bill with a set amount to be paid. In this 4 store scenario, that's 4 bills in total.

I see property taxes and sales taxes as being entirely different, sorry.
 
A single store in the US could be sending taxes to 3 different levels of government: City/Village; County; State. The store doesn't know how much to send until they calculate it. Items that are taxed may be different at all three levels, so a cash register has to be programmed.

Which doesn't change for a given store - there's one city rate, one county rate, and one state rate.

For example - takes shoes (hypothetically).
-The City wants 1.5%, the County wants 2%, and the State wants 2.5%.
-Except if they are kids shoes....
-Now the City wants 1.5%, the County wants 1% (lots of voters with kids), and the State has made them tax-free.

Open a 2nd store in a different City in the same County, and one of those tax rates changes. Open 3rd store in a different County, same State and now HQ is dealing with 6 different tax codes (that is - different rates and different taxable items). At least in this scenario there is one tax code common to all three stores, and one common to two stores.

Open a 4th store in a different State you now add 3 new tax codes

And a different person calculating those rates. There's no issue with training personnel, because the cash register is able to determine whether an item is taxable (for example, here durable goods are taxable but food items are not).

And to further extend your analogy into property taxes, if the same owner opens a second store in another jurisdiction, he has a different tax rate to contend with - just as a property owner would if he bought a second property in another jurisdiction.

I see property taxes and sales taxes as being entirely different, sorry.

They are, until you bring up the issue of multiple stores equaling multiple tax rates - it's no different from two different properties taxed at different rates.
 
Also, surely it is unfair that the sales tax is different between states. There should be a standard U.S. rate of sales tax.

It is fair. State sales tax is commensurate to the laws, facilities, infrastructure, and services that state provides. Some states provide more than others, hence different state sales tax rates.

In densely populated areas like New York City, local government provides a cheap mass transit system, extensive road networks, clean drinking water (NYC is second cleanest in US), strong public health authority, many free clinics, extensive emergency services, and an above-adequate police force, to name a few. In a state like Alaska such services are hard to come by, which is one reason why there is no state sales tax there.
 
Which doesn't change for a given store - there's one city rate, one county rate, and one state rate.
....
They are, until you bring up the issue of multiple stores equaling multiple tax rates - it's no different from two different properties taxed at different rates.

Yes, of course, how silly of me to think that being sent a pre-calculated invoice to pay property tax annually was somehow easier to manage than programming multiple cash registers with 3 different tax codes, training staff to recognize the difference between small adult shoes and children's shoes, maintaining purchasing histories for up to 7 years to support tax calculations, programming cash registers to calculate one tax rate on 5 or less doughnuts and different tax for 6 or more for the City taxes, but to use just one tax rate for all doughnuts regardless of the number for the County and zero rated for the State, and then reprogramming them all again for the month before school starts when the State declares that all children's items will be tax free (State taxes) to help parents get their kids ready for school. But the City and County taxes don't change.

You are absolutely correct, the level of complexity and between all that and the single "Pay us this amount" on the annual property taxes is just about the same. What was I thinking?
 
You are absolutely correct, the level of complexity and between all that and the single "Pay us this amount" on the annual property taxes is just about the same. What was I thinking?

You make it sound like nobody has to calculate that amount. :rolleyes: Just because it isn't the store manager, doesn't mean that amount just magically appears.
 
You make it sound like nobody has to calculate that amount. :rolleyes: Just because it isn't the store manager, doesn't mean that amount just magically appears.

Um.... I'm guessing that you've never actually owned a retail business, or owned property. But that is an assumption on part, so if this seems basic it may just be I'm starting from a wrong place.

Property Taxes: Different jurisdictions will have different methods, but generally I think this is a good example. The various boards and authorities and districts and government bodies that receive taxes go through (annually usually) a process where democratically elected people (generally) decide on a budget and set a tax rate per $ of property value - sometimes you will hear of something called a "mill-rate". The Property Owner (who may or may not be the Store Owner as well) is not involved in these calculations at all, except for their involvement in the democratic process of electing the politicians.

There is a separate body that maintains a database of what each property is worth. In some places they calculate how much it would be worth if you sold it today on the open market, and in other places it's the value of last purchase on the open market. The Property Owner has no involvement in this process... except if they decide to appeal the assessed value.

Once a year the Property Owner receives a bill. It states what the assessment office has determined is the value of your property. How much each level of government is collecting, and what you need to pay. For the Property Value the extent of their involvement in this process can be as simple as opening an envelope, looking at the number, writing-out and signing a cheque, signing a declaration on the Tax Bill, and mailing it back. That's it. They do not calculate a single thing. The minimum wage admin clerk can get the cheque ready for signing.

Sales Taxes: For just one level of government. [Read the bit above regarding programming cash registers, perhaps multiple times in a year]. Just for arguments sake (and this makes things easier, not harder) lets say the sales tax is remitted on an annual basis. Bigger companies tend to remit more often and this whole process can happen on a monthly basis for them.

Start with a blank form. This can also be done online, but generally you are working from a printed worksheet. Big companies will at least have their company info preprinted on a form.

Again, different jurisdictions will have different formats.. this was typical for British Columbia... which had a simple to middle-complex provincial sales tax format before we combined our Federal and Provincial Sales Taxes into a single Harmonized Sales Tax.

Calculate your total Gross Sales for the period, and record. Calculate your returns on those sales, and record. Calculate Net Sales from those two figures. Yes - the Province wanted to see those numbers. Calculate the Sales Tax collected on those sales - Now it gets fun....
a) Do you use the "Simplified Calculation" where you simply calculated the amount owed using a percentage that was less than the actual tax rate, but was supposed average out the Taxable Sales and the Untaxed Sales. At this point you would record that figure, then add in any adjustments (errors made on the previous return, etc), calculate your commission and subtract that figure from the tax owed. (BC was kinda cool that way... they would pay you up to $14 to fill in your tax form, but only if you met the deadline for filing. I used to miss the deadline on a regular basis, so I would not calculate the commission. Then BC would send me a re-assessment notice telling me that I had a $14 credit, and that I should add that to the "adjustment" portion on the next remitting form and include the re-assessment reference number. Sometimes I'd forget to do that, and then I had a whole flurry of notices from BC. We'd get sorted in the end, though I had a rather large file by then.)

OR...

b) Do you record the detail on all sales for the year, and calculate the sales tax actually collected on those sales, less the returns and the adjustments, commission paid by BC etc. You would record all of this and then send in the form and the cheque. I used this method, by the way.

There were ways to legally minimize the tax you collected from your clients, and therefore owed to BC. For instance... When I did a photo session for clients, if I billed the photo session and the CD as two different line items on the invoice I would only need to charge Sales Tax on the CD (a tangible product) and not on the photo session itself (a service). So, I'd charge them 7% on $1 and zero-rate the rest (usually in the $hundreds). But I had to list it on the invoice as two lines, and while I was never audited - I still needed to be able to produce a copy of the invoice - all my invoices - for up to 5 years after the close of the tax year had I been asked.

In order to take advantage of these strategies, and not get caught by the closing of loopholes, I needed to read the monthly tax bulletins. Not onerous, since they were usually just a few pages and mostly dealt with hotel taxes, liquor taxes, and fuel products. In my conversations with my American photographic colleagues, the BC system seemed to be on the simpler side of mid-range in terms of complexity. The advantage of the BC system was that if I had expanded to anywhere else in the province I would use the exact same form, and in fact could amalgamate locations into a single form.

When you have each City and County within a State collecting their own sales taxes, then the number of forms increases. More importantly the reports you need to run from the software are very different. However... the property tax form, while different for each jurisdiction, is still just a number that you pay. For the property owner there is no complexity in it... it's just an invoice like any other.
 
For some items, there is no doubt in my mind that buying on-line offers advantages of convenience, selection, and economy that are hard to beat. If I wanted an obscure or out-of-print copy of a book - I'd head to Amazon rather than spending weeks trolling used bookstores.

On the other hand, there are many items its much simpler, and more gratifying, to go and buy in person. My life isn't so busy that I don't have time to examine the head of lettuce or piece of steak I buy at the grocery store. I wouldn't dream of buying pants (trousers) or shoes without physically trying them on first. I like to run my fingers and eyes over the weave and weft of a suit coat or a sweater. And when buying many electronic devices, I like to be able to pick it up, turn it on, to see for myself how it responds and how it feels in my hands.

But most importantly, the act of going shopping, in a local store staffed by neighbors, is part of being part of a community. I'm not necessarily "friends" with the people in stores - but interacting with our fellow humans is one of the pleasures of life. I'd hate, HATE, to feel penned up in my house, never venturing out except for work and other "essential" tasks. And while I like my FedEx and UPS delivery people - I'm quite well aware that there are hundreds of thousands of OTHER people I'd like to interact with.
 
Flip flops.

See many people don't realize that their flip flop size is usually not their regular shoe size. Having worked at a shoe store, I've noticed that most people buy flip flops 1 size up from their normal size because they're able to try on various sizes of flip flops.

If ordered online, a customer may order their regular size of flip flop and will realize that it is not the best fit :p
 
One place I shop non-online is used bookstores. I think they're amazing. And I occasionally shop at the Jazz Record Mart in Chicago, and that would really be my primary place if I lived closer. For many things, though, I prefer to shop online. That way, I don't just randomly see it, and I have the opportunity to maybe see reviews, etc., and know what I'm getting. When I live close, it's a lot more social, so I tend to go just for the experience.
 
I do both. Depends on how fast I need the product. I actually like shopping online though. Shipping no complaints, even with shipping some items are cheaper than in what I can get in a B&M.
 
Some people like to support their local independent bricks-and-mortar businesses.
 
So......fruits and prostitutes.

Personally, I'd never pay for a melon that I couldn't squeeze or motorboat first.



And people nowadays are too fixated on getting the lowest (!!!!) price to support local business. It's sad. People are willing to sacrifice customer service pre- and post-purchase, just to save 5-10% online. Personally, I don't believe that the cheapest item is always the best value. Sometimes, it's just worth walking into a shop, getting some help, and paying a bit extra for that help. I don't like the idea of walking into a shop, trying out a product, and then purchasing from somewhere else online. You would save money, but I don't want to live in a "ghost town" either. I suppose if the price difference was over 20%, I may buy online, but there are some things that you wouldn't want to purchase wrong.

And yes, I'm still talking about fruits and prostitutes.
 
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Things I already know / trust I go online. Amazon Prime whore that I am, most return / exchange and shipping issues are null.

However, there are items that I must cup, squeeze, stare at, stroke and sniff before purchasing, those are always a B&M thing. Always.

Morning lady boners. haha


If I can get it cheaper online I will usually but if I need to see it first then I'll probably buy in store. I avoid malls as much as I can but there are times when I need to go to one (Williams Sonoma) so if I make the trip I may as well buy there.

I do enjoy supporting local businesses. Knowing a couple small business owners in my area makes me want to do something like that.
 
Shopping online is such a PITA...you have to fill out all the billing info online, wait x days which always encompasses a weekend, miss the delivery x times, hassle to return, and you have to deal with all the junk email that goes with any online purchase. Half the places force you to make an account too rather than letting you check out as a guest which is bogus.

I'm an American which means I want it NOW...half the fun is going to the store to get something.

America has become a nation of fat, lazy slobs.
 
I only resort to online buying if it's not available in a store. When I want something, I want it now and not have to wait a week for delivery. The price difference is usually too small to be worth it anyway.
 
When I'm out of milk, I prefer going to the store to buying it over waiting two weeks for it to ship. That's just me though.
 
I'm a mixed bag. I buy most stuff locally in stores, but if I can't find it, I'll scour the internet.

I also work in retail right now and have to deal with people who bought something online and then have problems with it or questions about. I honestly don't treat those people the same way I do a customer who bought from me directly. Right or wrong, those people tried to bypass me and save a buck then want me to help them for free. I work on 100% commissions so I really don't feel too bad brooming them out the door. Sure, most of them I'll help anyways, trying to earn future business, but some of them, well I hope they learn their lesson, the hard way.
 
if its something that is set at a firm price and is the same all over, then yes. I buy almost all my books for classes online

However, sometimes I hate when the picture looks great on ebay then it looks like crap when it comes in the mail.

Reminds me of the chicks that look hot on FaceBook and then you meet em and look like junk.
 
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