It Just Works. Not.

[avincent52]

Is anyone else just as frustrated with Apple as I am right now?
I bought an MBP. I got a DOA refurb. I got a new machine and installed Leopard (big mistake) and since then I've had more hang ups, crashes, and other problems large and small in a month than I did with my ibook and Imac in five years of rugged daily use.

Here's Apple's manifesto from its website:

It Just Works

Your toaster doesn’t crash. Your kitchen sink doesn’t crash. Why should your computer? Think of the countless hours you would save if your PC worked on your time — not the other way around. Then think about a Mac.

If you spend more of your precious time figuring out why your PC crashes than you spend taking out the garbage every week, you need a Mac. Still not convinced? Just ask the millions of people who use and love a Mac why it’s become such an integral part of their lives, and most will tell you the same thing: It just works. Letting them do what they want to do. When they want to do it. All the time.

But despite this high-toned rhetoric and the Windows-bashing commercials, this is just a Big Fat Lie.
My sink and my toaster don't crash (well, my toaster caught on fire once, but I digress) My brand-spanking-new MacBook Pro does. A couple of times every day. In 30 days, I have spent a decade's worth of "taking out the garbage" time trying to get this machine to work. All the time? Yeah, right.

How about some new slogans.

Leopard is the New Vista

My Tiger Can Eat Your Leopard

Hi. I'm a Mac. I wear better clothes than John Hodgman (who by the way is waaaay smarter and funnier than I am. You didn't see "Waiting," did you? Apple's ad agency obviously didn't) but I guess by now you know that I'm just as likely to crash and drive you crazy as he is, but at twice the price. But hey, I look so much cooler on the front seat of the car while you drive to the Apple Store.

It Just Works. Not.

 

[Blue Velvet]

How did you install Leopard? Anecdotally, it seems to be becoming clear that clean installs, and archive and installs may give the best results. While I'm not totally in love with it, Leopard has been very stable on my MBP.

 

[squeeks]

How did you install Leopard? Anecdotally, it seems to be becoming clear that clean installs, and archive and installs may give the best results. While I'm not totally in love with it, Leopard has been very stable on my MBP.

perhaps but not true for me

i clean installed and have had nothing but issues with kernel panics with leopard, never had that problem during the 6 months i used tiger on here

the annoying thing is it kernel panics running Apple Software (ie. soundtrack pro, safari)

so yeah i also am not thrilled that my mac crashes about as much as my PC used to

 

[Leareth]

I can understand your frustrations using Leopard.
After switching to it on three of my machines I decided to switch back to Tiger.
I did completely clean install, archived install , update installs you name it.
it would freeze during an install.
drove me up the wall.

I love apple products but am getting a little beefed with the software issues and lower level of quality control on the hardware.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

Before you get roasted to death by the fanboys - I must say I agree with some of your points.

Sadly - I feel that as Apple gains more market share - this is only going to happen with increasing frequency.

Their hardware IS over priced - and Leopard has been a gigantic let down for me thusfar.

Tiger though - I still appreciate a great deal. And my "Old" iMac keeps me feeling warm and fuzzy - in spite of its quirks.

 

[avincent52]

Blue
An Apple store "genius" did a clean install of Leopard on my brand-new machine. (This after a migration problem left me with two unusable clones of my old iMac on the MBP.)
And my files were moved over manually so that no corrupted settings were migrated to the new machine (which as a 2.2 15-inch MBP should be Apple's most fully sorted portable, I would have thought)
And no, I'm not using any weird software. In fact, the only non-Apple app I'm using regularly is Office. (I've installed Firefox and Windows Media Player, but use them only rarely)
Despite all that, and fully updated software, this thing crashes on average a couple of times a day, the most recent crash being a particularly frightening unprompted excursion into Setup Assistant, happily solved quickly and without loss of data after a search of MacRumors. This particular little loop is so stubborn that you can evidently reinstall the OS and it still won't budge.

Give me a boring beige box that works. Please.

At what point will the marketing guys begin to realize that they who reside in glazed abodes should refrain from hurling igneous projectiles?

best
Allen

 

[iToaster]

Perhaps you should call Apple Care and tell them what's happening. You could have just gotten a dud, again. As well, Leopard is relatively new, give Apple some time to work out the kinks. I can tell you that both my Macs are stable as can be.

 

[SkyBell]

I'd think it's another dud, stuff like that happens.

My mini has crashed once. Totally acceptable (Well, it was just a kernel panic that was solved with a restart)

Let's just say I have been brought to tears over my old HP.

 

[desenso]

99% of Macs just work. The 1% that don't work are owned by the people who whine in this forum.

 

[pdpfilms]

99% of Macs just work. The 1% that don't work are owned by the people who whine in this forum.

I'm not so sure I agree with that.

I have owned two PowerBooks and two PowerMacs myself, my sisters both have owned a Powerbook and a Macbook, and my father has owned an iMac, three PowerBooks, and a MacBook. Of all these machines, only one MacBook has been problem-free (thus far). Every other machine has had a hardware issue requiring AppleCare service, and each one is displaying the typical Leopard issues (not sleeping, etc, etc.).

If what you are saying is correct, this situation would be nearly impossible from a probability standpoint. What apple says is unfortunately quite untrue... I have yet to own (as has most of my family) a Mac that just works. It's certainly better than the alternative, but the Mac experience is nowhere near as clean as it's purported to be.

 

[thechidz]

Is anyone else just as frustrated with Apple as I am right now?
I bought an MBP. I got a DOA refurb. I got a new machine and installed Leopard (big mistake) and since then I've had more hang ups, crashes, and other problems large and small in a month than I did with my ibook and Imac in five years of rugged daily use.

Here's Apple's manifesto from its website:


But despite this high-toned rhetoric and the Windows-bashing commercials, this is just a Big Fat Lie.
My sink and my toaster don't crash (well, my toaster caught on fire once, but I digress) My brand-spanking-new MacBook Pro does. A couple of times every day. In 30 days, I have spent a decade's worth of "taking out the garbage" time trying to get this machine to work. All the time? Yeah, right.

How about some new slogans.

Leopard is the New Vista

My Tiger Can Eat Your Leopard

Hi. I'm a Mac. I wear better clothes than John Hodgman (who by the way is waaaay smarter and funnier than I am. You didn't see "Waiting," did you? Apple's ad agency obviously didn't) but I guess by now you know that I'm just as likely to crash and drive you crazy as he is, but at twice the price. But hey, I look so much cooler on the front seat of the car while you drive to the Apple Store.

It Just Works. Not.

sorry but no sympathy from me. Im stuck on a pc over christmas and the only thing its good for is keeping me off the computer and with my family. God this thing sucks.

 

[yellow]

I have to agree.

As far as I am concerned, Leopard was rushed to the market in time for Christmas and then the Apple PR machine was started up in hopes of spinning away all issues until real solutions presented themselves.

I had a lot of irritating issues from day one with Leopard and still haven't seen 10.5.1 do much to rectify them. Within 4 days, all my Macs were back to Tiger (I need my Macs to work as much as possible, as often as possible) and I promised myself that I wouldn't try Leopard again until 10.5.2.

Plus stacks are annoying as heck.



I should note that I feel as if Apple is taking power away from the PowerUser.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

I'm not so sure I agree with that.

I have owned two PowerBooks and two PowerMacs myself, my sisters both have owned a Powerbook and a Macbook, and my father has owned an iMac, three PowerBooks, and a MacBook. Of all these machines, only one MacBook has been problem-free (thus far). Every other machine has had a hardware issue requiring AppleCare service, and each one is displaying the typical Leopard issues (not sleeping, etc, etc.).

If what you are saying is correct, this situation would be nearly impossible from a probability standpoint. What apple says is unfortunately quite untrue... I have yet to own (as has most of my family) a Mac that just works. It's certainly better than the alternative, but the Mac experience is nowhere near as clean as it's purported to be.

I agree with that statement 100%.

And they say there are no smaht people in Vermont.

 

[pdpfilms]

I agree with that statement 100%.

And they say there are no smaht people in Vermont.

Funny, I heard the same thing about those living in New Hampsha.

 

[obeygiant]

Leopard still has a bunch of annoying things that tiger had no problem with. For one my gmail account. In tiger I could type the first letter of an email address and a list would pop up. Now in Leopard I'm constantly typing in the entire address and it doesn't seem to learn. Please let me know if you can fix this but its very annoying knowing that this worked fine before.

I've always been an early adopter of apple products to my demise. Starting with my Powerbook lombard where it didn't have firewire, and then just a few short months later, boom, same powerbook with firewire. This has happened with iMacs as well. I must be a slow learner because I bought leopard and installed it on a new macbook, to which a kernel panic occurred DURING the installation, which totally screwed my hard drive. $3000 later with a new santa rosa macbook and an external hard drive to copy to I have a working computer...with a sub-standard screen as compared to my previous macbook no less.

I've been a mac user since at least... 1989? when I got my first Mac Classic FDHD with a 40mb HD. I think I finally learned my lesson by not buying version #1 of mac ANYTHING. The recent iPhone has proven my point first with the price reduction and with what is going to be added by this MWSF.

 

[RaceTripper]

I did an erase and install and had the installer copy (migrate) my Tiger user directory from a clone. Since then I can't ever remember rebooting any OS as much as I've rebooted Leopard.

I've been a big fan of Mac OS in the past, and didn't have any significant problems with Tiger, but so far Leopard is somewhat of a mess. I sure hope stability improves soon.

As much as like to say how great Mac OS X is, when it comes to Leopard I agree and sympathize with the OP.

 

[ntrigue]

I am as pleased as you are disappointed. It just works! Leopard is a brilliant upgrade.

 

[ReanimationLP]

I've had a lot of crashes with Leopard.

Ugh.

And I'm too lazy to go back to Tiger.

 

[MikeTheC]

In related news, I think the next CEO of Apple might need to be Adm. Helena Cain. (Anyone here watch Razor and see how she dealt with problems?)

*checks*

Oh wait, she's dead. Never mind.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

Reanimation - it's easier than you think. Disk utility - create a partition - pop in your Tiger disc and reboot. Install, and either clone your settings, or copy files over - then re-size the Leopard partition.

It was orders of magnitude easier for me - and I get to keep Leopard for the 1 thing I need it for.

That reminds me, I need to boot back into Tiger.

 

[valdore]

I'm a relatively heavy user and have had no problems with Leopard on either of my Macs (except for the keyboard freezing problem on my Macbook - but that was fixed in 10.5.1).

 

[danny_w]

I've personally owned a G4 Mac Mini, Powerbook, G5 iMac, C2D iMac, and Macbook, and my son has a G5 iMac. So far all have "just worked" for the most part, and have been so much better than any pc that I ever had. I have never tried Leopard, but am about to b/c my work is buying me a new iMac 24". I sure hope this doesn't spoil my record. They only agreed to get it for me b/c I agreed to support it myself; IT only supports pc's and Windows.

 

[CalBoy]

OP, many of your points are very valid. I had some problems with Leopard as well, but with .1 and the keyboard update (prior to that, I was being driven mad!), it's become a lot better.

Now, I'll address what appears to be your main gripe. You're basically saying that Apple's products (namely Macs) don't live up to their marketing hype. Can you kindly name one product that will always live up to its hype?



I thought not.

You have to remember that Apple's marketing is doing what it's intended to do (sell Macs, iPods, iPhones, etc). As I recall, Microsoft's marketing team put together the "wow" campaign for Windows. I haven't been "wowed" by Windows.

You have to remember that for most people, Macs still work fairly well. I know you've had some bad luck (and I hope that it's over now), but I don't think it's fair to assume that all of Apple's products "don't work." Remember, you are one person, and this is an internet forum that is dedicated to troubleshooting and help. Imagine if you walked into a hospital not knowing anything about the rest of civilization. Wouldn't you assume that all humans were unhealthy and near death?

Good luck with your future experiences. I hope you fair better.

 

[JNB]

I'm not so sure I agree with that.

I have owned two PowerBooks and two PowerMacs myself, my sisters both have owned a Powerbook and a Macbook, and my father has owned an iMac, three PowerBooks, and a MacBook. Of all these machines, only one MacBook has been problem-free (thus far). Every other machine has had a hardware issue requiring AppleCare service, and each one is displaying the typical Leopard issues (not sleeping, etc, etc.).

If what you are saying is correct, this situation would be nearly impossible from a probability standpoint. What apple says is unfortunately quite untrue... I have yet to own (as has most of my family) a Mac that just works. It's certainly better than the alternative, but the Mac experience is nowhere near as clean as it's purported to be.

But would you honestly believe that a 91% fault rate (in your case) is an accurate reflection of Apple products as a whole, or that Apple could sell the millions of machines that they do if your experience was typical?

Not to discount your (or the OP's) individual experiences in the least, but it is, you have to admit, anecdotal, and can't be used as a statistically significant sample to make a claim that there's a major QA or engineering issue involved here (not that you did), or that Apples' marketing is patently untrue. I know it feels that way, and if I had the same experience as you, I'd feel the same way.

Equally anecdotal is my own experience, where in the last 27 years I have owned more Apple machines than you list--combined--and have exactly one failure in that time (a power supply on a nearly three year old iMac). That's it. And until that one Mac died (which was repaired the same day under AppleCare), they all "Just Worked", and still do to this day. The typical Leopard experience for me has been seamless and trouble-free, as well. Hey, I owned what was probably the only good Chevy Vega made. Dumb luck, I guess.

I guess my point is that some of us have terrific fortune, others seem to be on a "bad Apple" collecting binge , but we have to remember that even the collective experience of the forum members cannot be realistically used as an indication of a greater issue.

 

[duffer]

A bit underwhelmed myself.

I have been reading threads here and elsewhere since before purchasing my iMac and have watched people get shredded by fanboys who think Steve Jobs can do no wrong. Steve can't satisfy everyone, but some things need attention.

Let me preface this with a little history and forward thought. I recently converted to Mac (~4 months ago) because I was tired of the maintenance of Windows (spyware, malware, viruses, etc.). I was a long time Windows and Linux user and don't plan to ever make either of these my primary machine again. I like my iMac and OS X, but it's not perfect. Apple has and continues to produce phenomenal products and I will continue to buy them despite the flaws. I have also converted several friends and family over to Mac and all are very happy they made the switch.

I was so excited when my iMac arrived I immediately got everything setup and powered on. 2 minutes into my new bliss, the machine locked up. I could move the cursor, but nothing else. I didn't give it much thought and just restarted the machine. Got a little further next time, but after a bit, same thing. So I decided to do a clean install. After the clean install, things ran much better with the occasional lockup. I knew this wasn't Mac-like so I began to research, and sure enough, others were having the same issue. We all know how it ends, Apple denied there was a problem but were apparently working on a fix. I still have the occasional lockup, but only when I am logged in and switch to the other account. Not sure what it is, but the other account isn't used much, so I am not that concerned. I do have to say that while using Windows, I very rarely had anything go wrong and when something did go wrong, I was usually the cause. I have not had any problems with Leopard either.

On to the dock. The dock could be so much more than it currently is. I used ObjectDock (freeware) on Windows and it is far superior to the Leopard dock. It would be nice to be able to customize the Leopard dock a little more. Stacks suck. I do like the grid. Displaying the contents of a folder the way it is now is too cluttered.

Spotlight could be refined, but I use it quite a bit and like it. Not sure if this is a spotlight issue or not, but when using the search box inside a folder, I want the search terms to search only that folder. There may be a setting somewhere, but this annoys me to no end.

Front Row 2. This is the biggest waste of space I have seen on any OS. FR2 is faster than FR1, but still a piece of crap. Apple needs to look at Windows Media Center for guidance here. The lack of audio and video codec support is pathetic to say the least. Bring back the FR1 intro also. I really had high hopes of putting all my DVDs on disk and using FR as the primary interface, but what is the point if I can't get Dolby Digital or DTS to function through FR. Yes I have Perian installed and have made changes in the Midi application. Mplayer (latest nightly build) is the only player I can get DTS out of. Long of the short of this argument, if you put an application like FR in the OS and advertise how great it is, make it great. Make it live up to the hype.

This post is getting kind of long so I will wrap it up with one last complaint. Maybe this comes from being in the Windows and Linux world, but I would like more point and click options. Too many keyboard shortcuts. I wish there were more options in this regard.

If Apple is going to continue to air the arrogant, I'm better than you commercials, they could at least address the shortcomings of the OS and live up to the hype.