ITC Staff Side With Nokia Regarding Apple's Patent Claims

[iDisk]

Innovation vs Non-Creatives

In the end, Apple will pay Nokia for the GSM patent licenses it owes, like every other industry player does. There's no going around it.

This was their leverage in their settlement negotiations, it just backfired on them. Remember kids, this was the "me too!" move after Nokia filed with the ITC first and the patent claims were just thrown together in a bid to get some leverage where there is none.

A few UI patents vs the core functionality of the phone ?

Denial is claiming Apple will be victorious. They don't even question they need to pay Nokia, the only problem in negotiations that led to this lawsuit was the price.



Exactly, the ITC won't grant Nokia's motion to block imports either, but their memorandum might give Nokia additional weight in court if they reaffirm their patents (which shouldn't even be a question considering the patents in question).

Why, because they haven't sided with Apple?

How dare they.

This attempt by Nokia is a desperate strategy to limit Apples growth! Make no mistake, Apple will win.

- Bruce

 

[cmaier]

This attempt by Nokia is a desperate strategy to limit Apples growth! Make no mistake, Apple will win.

- Bruce

Win what? They won't win their patent infringement claims. They may win against Nokia in the sense that they won't be enjoined and the royalty may be less than Nokia wants. There's no way they aren't going to pay, though.

 

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Block all Nokia phone imports... apple seriously, the largest handset manufacturer in the world.... Dumbasses!

SOP. Look at every other lawsuit of this nature. It is just one of the steps followed in going through these motions. It should eventually end with the companies settling out of court.

 

[schmidm77]

Well, the other issue, from what I remember, is whether or not Apple is liable to pay patent royalties for the use of GSM chips that it buys from a third party supplier, when presumably, that supplier has already had to pay the royalty as well.

 

[blackburn]

Why can't nokia just do something useful. Nowadays their cellphones are pure crap. Buggy as hell. Same old crap new outfit.

This patent system really doesn't work. They all sue each other. The costumers are the ones at loss.

 

[kdarling]

Nokia is laying claims against not just the iPhone but the iPod Touch and other non-phone technology and they also are trying to pressure Apple into contributing non-phone related technology into the pool.

Interestingly, Nokia denies Apple's claim that they asked for iPhone patents.

I think we have a mixture of fact and hype going on, and will have wait for details from the Delaware trial which will actually decide what the fees and fines will be.

Those lawsuits are on hold, however, pending the outcome of the ITC decisions. So the ITC patents verdict will have a big influence.

 

[aegisdesign]

The iPod Touch is not covered by Nokia's patents.

Nokia have patents on WiFi, power management, antenna design and more.

They spend about 2/3rds Apple's annual R&D budget in a single month.

I would be very surprised if anyone can make a mobile device with WiFi in it without treading on a Nokia patent.

 

[blackburn]

Nokia have patents on WiFi, power management, antenna design and more.

They spend about 2/3rds Apple's annual R&D budget in a single month.

I would be very surprised if anyone can make a mobile device with WiFi in it without treading on a Nokia patent.

Their R&D team must be very crappy. Look at their software

 

[sjinsjca]

This is a pretty rotten move by Nokia only because of Apple's success in the mobile market. Nokia shouldn't be allowed to do this...

It's their technology, they can charge whatever they want, or try to. Apple, rightly or wrongly, appears to have chosen the "see you in court" route as its negotiation strategy. Nokia brought this on themselves, in that regard. They asked for the moon and were told hell-no. Impasse. Lawsuits fly, patents get attacked. The lawyers benefit; I'm not so sure about the customers or shareholders. But this is how the game is played.

 

[KnightWRX]

Not true.

You're right, that should have read like that :

Nokia is asking for different terms from Apple because Apple has not contributed to the GSM patent pool at all.

 

[lilo777]

Now we know why Apple are hoarding cash

They will need it to pay Nokia for the patents and for the cost of litigation.

 

[KnightWRX]

It's their technology, they can charge whatever they want, or try to.

Not exactly. When you submit technology to be standardised for industry use by the different standard bodies, you usually agree to license the patents required to implement it under what is called FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory) terms in order to promote the usage of the standard.

If you go willy nilly and do as you say, charge whatever you want, then other players won't implement the standard, resulting in fragmentation leaving the standard body in a tough spot. What good is a standard body that doesn't promote widespread use of a standard ?

 

[SandynJosh]

I've never seen a good Nokia phone, ever.

Nokia makes some great phones, but they also make a slew of cheap phones that are only useful as detonating devices. You may only be aware of the latter.

 

[cmaier]

You're right, that should have read like that :

Nokia is asking for different terms from Apple because Apple has not contributed to the GSM patent pool at all.

There remains no evidence for your "because." There remains only mixed evidence for "Nokia is asking for different terms."

 

[blackburn]

Nokia makes some great phones, but they also make a slew of cheap phones that are only useful as detonating devices. You may only be aware of the latter.

Yeah I really can say that about my E71, N70,6630,6280 and the list goes on.. The only great phone they had has the 3310/3330 series.
Even their flagship phones suck. It's bad because they may have good hardware. But their software sucks.
I've spend more time on warranties with nokia than with the rest of the brands I've ever had contact with

 

[lilo777]

There remains no evidence for your "because." There remains only mixed evidence for "Nokia is asking for different terms."

Did Apple ever had their patents validated by a court? Perhaps all their patents are bogus in which case they would not really be in a position to contribute much

 

[cmaier]

Did Apple ever had their patents validated by a court? Perhaps all their patents are bogus in which case they would not really be in a position to contribute much

Patents are presumed valid, by law. They do not need to be validated by court. They may, however, have claims (even all claims) invalidated by court.

 

[mrbash]

ITC clearly is misguided. Though in the end Apple will prove victorious.

- Bruce

Really? Is this your gut feeling, or do you have some evidence that the US ITC didn't have when they made their judgement?

 

[Stella]

Yeah I really can say that about my E71, N70,6630,6280 and the list goes on.. The only great phone they had has the 3310/3330 series.
Even their flagship phones suck. It's bad because they may have good hardware. But their software sucks.

There was an article a couple months back, relating to hardware and software conflicts:

The software division stated to run the software your hardware requires <set specification>.

The hardware division ignores this advice and then the sofware division gets blamed when the phone hardware is underpowered for the given software.



Article extract:
Care for a little more insight into Nokia's smartphone development habits? In an email to our pal John Gruber, a former Nokia software engineer has laid out his perspective on why the Finnish phone maker seems to be struggling in that lucrative high-end smartphone market:

"Here's the problem: Hardware Rules at Nokia. The software is written by the software groups inside of Nokia, and it is then given to the hardware group, which gets to decide what software goes on the device, and the environment in which it runs. All schedules are driven by the hardware timelines. It was not uncommon for us to give them code that ran perfectly by their own test, only to have them do things like reduce the available memory for the software to 25% the specified allocation, and then point the finger back at software when things failed in the field."

 

[lilo777]

Patents are presumed valid, by law. They do not need to be validated by court. They may, however, have claims (even all claims) invalidated by court.

Sure, but looking at many Apple patents that got press coverage recently, it is possible that most of them might be valid only until they get challenged in court.

 

[KnightWRX]

There remains no evidence for your "because."

No evidence because you can't prove a negative. Apple doesn't hold any GSM patents, that much is clear.

 

[aegisdesign]

Their R&D team must be very crappy. Look at their software

It's not the software (generally) that Apple are infringing on but the hardware and nobody would say Nokia has crappy hardware, least not iPhone 4 users. You'd look like a complete idiot after the last few months.

Anyway, well done the ITC for siding with Nokia and against stupid software patents.

 

[blackburn]

There was an article a couple months back, relating to hardware and software conflicts:

The software division stated to run the software your hardware requires <set specification>.

The hardware division ignores this advice and then the sofware division gets blamed when the phone hardware is underpowered for the given software.



Article extract:
Care for a little more insight into Nokia's smartphone development habits? In an email to our pal John Gruber, a former Nokia software engineer has laid out his perspective on why the Finnish phone maker seems to be struggling in that lucrative high-end smartphone market:

"Here's the problem: Hardware Rules at Nokia. The software is written by the software groups inside of Nokia, and it is then given to the hardware group, which gets to decide what software goes on the device, and the environment in which it runs. All schedules are driven by the hardware timelines. It was not uncommon for us to give them code that ran perfectly by their own test, only to have them do things like reduce the available memory for the software to 25% the specified allocation, and then point the finger back at software when things failed in the field."

Yeah, but that ain't an excuse. And their hardware sucks.
Covers that don't properly close, cheap plastic, crappy sliding mechanisms, batteries that swell, their accessories are made of very cheap plastic.

I've had all sorts of problems with nokia, had motherboards replaced because of white screen issues (an ic would malfunction at random) and the list goes on.

Other things that nokia are really great at: porting bugs over. My 6630 had a bug with the lock code, guess what my E71 does the same. And some times the phone goes bunkers and forgets my contact list.

And their costumer service is the best. They always find an excuse in order to avoid repairing your phone (water damage or the best, they told me that I've had opened the phone, but the phone had that nokia sticker on the screws from the previous repair).

 

[aegisdesign]

Yeah I really can say that about my E71, N70,6630,6280 and the list goes on.. The only great phone they had has the 3310/3330 series.
Even their flagship phones suck. It's bad because they may have good hardware. But their software sucks.
I've spend more time on warranties with nokia than with the rest of the brands I've ever had contact with

Warranties for software issues? Huh?

I've got an E71. Most reliable phone I've ever had. Battery lasts 2 days+. Push email gets delivered quicker than my Mac from my own IMAP server (I run my own servers so I've debugged why). Best twitter client on any phone (Gravity). Full SIP support built into the OS - no crappy third party apps. I run ssh/vnc clients in the background without fear of the OS shutting them down like on iOS. Bluetooth sync to my Mac works unlike iPhone. Proper home screen, no stupid dumb grid of apps thing and a UI for dummies.

Just ordered a new C7 today to supplement it. Cost me about a third the price of an iPhone.

 

[blackburn]

Warranties for software issues? Huh?

I've got an E71. Most reliable phone I've ever had. Battery lasts 2 days+. Push email gets delivered quicker than my Mac from my own IMAP server (I run my own servers so I've debugged why). Best twitter client on any phone (Gravity). Full SIP support built into the OS - no crappy third party apps. I run ssh/vnc clients in the background without fear of the OS shutting them down like on iOS. Bluetooth sync to my Mac works unlike iPhone. Proper home screen, no stupid dumb grid of apps thing and a UI for dummies.

Just ordered a new C7 today to supplement it. Cost me about a third the price of an iPhone.

Guess you really have luck with them. Mine was repaired twice. It ain't reliable at all. And I don't even try to use Internet or things like that. I've gave up. Yes it's cheaper than the iphone, but still, with the latest firmware v500 I'm still having problems with it.