This is a discussion about phones, I would appreciate if you do not bring the MacBooks into it.
Thank you.
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ITC Staff Side With Nokia Regarding Apple's Patent Claims
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This is a discussion about phones, I would appreciate if you do not bring the MacBooks into it.
Thank you.
I posted that story for interest.. ( not to necessarily have the forum responses to it
) hardware vs software. All companies have their conflicts - Apple's has been functionality vs asthetics.My E71 has been rock solid too. I use internet and email just fine...
However... my Macbook Pro, in for repair around a dozens times in the past 12 months alone!
Getting back on topic... If Apple were to lose their claim, I wouldn't be surprised if this encourages Apple to talk again to Nokia ( if they aren't already ).
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Yeah but that was a few years from now. The only reason that I talked about that was the fact that I've had 2 swollen batteries and they refused to exchange them.
Conclusion: I'm very unlucky with nokia, and lucky with apple and other brands like sony ericsson and htc.
v110 firmware was awful for me. iSync didn't work and SIP occasionally dropped calls. It's been great from v200 on.
Generally the E71 is regarded as a 'hero' device for Nokia since it got plenty of RAM for the OS release (Symbian S60 3rd FP1). The dodgy ones are always the ones where they've cut corners on the RAM like the N97. It lets them down every time. The trick is to spot the heroes.
The new S^3 devices however have plenty - 256MB RAM is loads for Symbian, especially with demand paging of apps and data in S^3. The core OS and hardware now seems sorted. Pity about the UI still.
Thanks for taking what I said out of context. Next time, please leave it all in context so it doesn't look like I'm a flaming fanboy.
What context it was in was an IF statement. If nokia had brought this up to gain financially because of apple's success. I'm not trying to get in anyones face about this, but it doesn't make me happy to see things out of context because it's what the media, whether left or right, does all day long.
v110 firmware was awful for me. iSync didn't work and SIP occasionally dropped calls. It's been great from v200 on.
Generally the E71 is regarded as a 'hero' device for Nokia since it got plenty of RAM for the OS release (Symbian S60 3rd FP1). The dodgy ones are always the ones where they've cut corners on the RAM like the N97. It lets them down every time. The trick is to spot the heroes.
The new S^3 devices however have plenty - 256MB RAM is loads for Symbian, especially with demand paging of apps and data in S^3. The core OS and hardware now seems sorted. Pity about the UI still.
Yeah the 6600 (the big one) was a great phone. Never had an issue. Never had to update software. Looks like when you buy an phone your playing the lotery
What drives me mad is the fact that I have a lot of phones passing trough my hands because of dad's job. I usually help my dad to configure them and then they go back to the enterprise for their new owners. And what I've noticed is that they are cutting more corners with the quality of the phones.
I've had great nokia phones(even the ngage never gave me an issue), but lately they all give me trouble
Lately I've started to thinker with android phones. And the software looks good. Maybe nokia could use android instead of symbian.
Let's just hope that the patent war ends. And instead of spending money on lawsuits, they spend the money in proper R&D.
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IMO (as a radio/HW engineer) the Nokia phones that Ive owned (6150, 6230, 6630, 1100 and N79), all have had better reception than HTC Desire or the iPhone 3GS. Their sound quality is also better, esp. on speakerphone (N79 vs 3GS and HTC Desire). Nokia make great phones (from my experience), terrible computing devices, but great phones.
Though to be fair the N79 did multitask - I was able to run torrents in the background!
Nowadays phones should have a decent audio quality. Never had an issue with calls on nokia phones if I don't count my E71 in it (drops calls like crazy).
The audio was always clear that's for sure. Now user friendly-ness and the dreaded "Memory full" error when I have no apps opened annoys me.
I remember my sony ericsson w910i had a crappy speakerphone (in a crowded environment you wouldn't ear a thing), but I had network in places that my nokia hadn't.
Nokia wants Apple to pay licensing for their patents. They also want to license Apple's patents for free as part of the deal. If Apple needs to license their patents, then the same should apply to Nokia. That is the biggest reason Apple is fighting this.
Apple's counter claim was basically just a delay tactic. It was not expected to win, just slow things down to the point that all of this is irrelevant. The HTC claim also needs to be processed. There will be further delays after that. By the time it all gets resolved, the landscape will be completely different.
Besides, I hate double licensing. It is like going to a bar and getting charged cover to enter the bar *and* leave the bar. They are trying to collect royalties from the GSM chipset company and the company that uses the GSM chip. So not only do they want to double charge for GSM royalties, they also want to steal Apple's patents during the process.
EDIT: Removed FUD reference. I think I replied to the wrong posting by accident. However, I still fail to see how this is fair. According to Apple, Nokia wanted *both* cross-licensing and cash. Even if it was "or", Nokia is still double-dipping.
@Stella - It was after. I jumped the gun with my inflammatory comments. ;-)
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Wait, who's spreading FUD ?
Nokia have offered Apple many deals. From Apple's complaint, they've received both cross-licensing agreements and cash only agreements.
There is not "Wanting to license Apple's patents for free" here.
Wait, who's spreading FUD ?
Nokia have offered Apple many deals. From Apple's complaint, they've received both cross-licensing agreements and cash only agreements.
There is not "Wanting to license Apple's patents for free" here.
Be fair, he's removed that - though probably after you posted your response...
How? they owe Nokia the fees, the only one who's going to be victorious is Nokia. Apple will have to pay, and apple is running the risk of having its phone's blocked from being imported.
That would never actually happen. It would be extremely rare. If it did happen, Apple would settle to prevent that. There is also no legal precedent as far as I know. The phones are made in China for a US company. It is not clear if that is under the jurisdiction of the ITC. The ITC is supposed to be used by US companies, not foreign ones. I'm not sure if any other foreign company has attempted to use the ITC in this way. If it ever happens they have two choices. Either settle or start manufacturing the phones in the US. They could probably just get away with final assembly and Foxconn apparently has some resources here. It is not like they would actually be blocked from import from china. At least not more then a couple days.
It was there when I responded. He called me out as a FUD spreader only to spread FUD himself. He never countered my point.
How should I be fair exactly ? I didn't see he removed it, I read threads going forward, not backwards. I don't re-read posts, especially ones that insult me without a grasp on the actual situation.
You're applying the same value to the patents Nokia asked a cross-licensing deal and the ones they were licensing. You know, if I say "hey, have my MacBook Air, I'll take that 12" powerbook of yours", there's a darn good chance I'll also ask for cash in order to cover the difference in value.
We have no idea what Apple patents Nokia asked for or the cash value. It's not in the complaints. So we can't really judge if the deal was fair or not. You're jumping to conclusions, just like your FUD comment was.
Drop the "Apple does no wrong" line of thought for a second and you'll see how both companies are probably not 100% wrong or right in all of this. Hence why it's in court and will get decided by a Judge.
kdarling pointed out the Qualcomm - Broadcom - Verizon case as being a precedent to this.
So yes, if he is right, there is actually precedent and Apple is running the risk by not paying their dues to Nokia.
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Of course there is precedent. Further, the district court can also enjoin sales or importation of iPhones, and there is precedent for that, too.
I replied to the wrong posting by accident. I edited the post to correct that and to prevent this comment bloat. I think this is all too much idle conversation on something that has been retracted.
Back on topic:
I still fail to see how this is fair. According to Apple, Nokia wanted *both* cross-licensing and cash. Even if it was "or", Nokia is still double-dipping.
There may be. I remember from the original article that it was mentioned that there was no precedent for "foreign" companies to prevent import for a US company in the US. They may have meant that it just was never successful. I am no lawyer, so correct me if I'm wrong. This is about the ITC and not a district court. There are certainly other ways they could try to block import, but I am referring specifically to the ITC.
Pure speculation. The sum of the value of the cash and the cross-licensing may have satisfied the "F" in the FRAND requirement.
It probably doesn't satisfy the "ND" requirement, however.
Yes, you are wrong. Just as an example, LG got a favorable ruling against Vizio. Something like 35% of ITC requests are filed by foreign companies, as of late. Many against domestic companies.
I'll repeat myself since you missed it in all probability (fast moving thread is fast moving) :
You're applying the same value to the patents Nokia asked a cross-licensing deal on and the ones they were licensing. You know, if I say "hey, have my MacBook Air, I'll take that 12" powerbook off yours", there's a darn good chance I'll also ask for cash in order to cover the difference in value.
We have no idea what Apple patents Nokia asked for or the cash value. It's not in the complaints. So we can't really judge if the deal was fair or not. You're jumping to conclusions, just like your FUD comment was.
Drop the "Apple does no wrong" line of thought for a second and you'll see how both companies are probably not 100% wrong or right in all of this. Hence why it's in court and will get decided by a Judge.
Depends on what other agreements Nokia has with other vendors. Something we are also in the dark about and that will only come out during discovery.
Apparently that is controversial. Since it is a recurring license (per unit), I think that controversy strongly applies here. According to Wikipedia:
The most controversial issue in FRAND licensing is whether the "reasonable" license price should include the value contributed by the standard-setting organization's decision to adopt the standard. A technology is often more valuable after it has been widely adopted than when it is one alternative among many; there is a good argument that a license price that captures that additional value is not "reasonable" because it does not reflect the intrinsic value of the technology being licensed.
The LG/Vizio ruling is interesting. Do you know if there is precedent for conflicting rulings between a district court and the ITC? However, the simplest solution is just don't import. Apple could redesign future phones for automated final assembly. They could also figure out some way to insert the GSM chip after it is imported to the US. As long as the GSM chip isn't imported, the ITC has no authority. It may be cheaper to do that then pay Nokia $12 a phone.
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I was commenting that GSM licensing should apply to the chipset and not the phone. In this case, it really matter what we don't know. The whole issue is irrelevant because the licensing should never be taking place to begin with. Looking at it from this perspective, the only case I could see is with antenna design patents. That is the only GSM part designed by Apple. The current antenna is unique enough that it may not apply to Nokia's patents anyway and I think this case relates to GSM standards and not antenna design.
If you take GSM licensing to the phone level, what is to stop them from saying the network is also "using" their patents. They could even go so far as send every cell phone user a bill every month for "using" their GSM patents to talk on their phone. The GSM standards are implemented by the chipset. They are not programmed in to the phones operating system. This just plain greed on Nokia's part. Probably because they have a failing business model. This is like Microsoft charging licensing fee for your computer for windows related patents and also charging you for windows. They don't do that. Just an example. Net Neutrality is probably a better real world example, but wanted to keep it simple.
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