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It seems to me that if only Apple and Android had joined forces a long time ago with a rich cross-platform messaging service (be that iMessage or RCS) then WhatsApp (and in other regions, Viber et Al) wouldn’t have ever become so dominant.

In the UK, I reckon most people don’t care about all this, because mostly everyone uses WhatsApp… unfortunately.

I know who I’d choose if it was between a Google backed service and a Facebook owned service!
 
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True. But look at where Google has gone with their myriad of messaging services that didn’t catch on. Having by default a service that substitutes SMS and that works in every device by default (like iMessage has for Apple ) is something that has to come with carriers deprecating SMS in favor of RCS. But that is not gonna happen unless Apple bends in. SMS is as of today the only universal method to reach any handset.
A company the size of Apple's taking the solitary stance that they will only use the absolutely lowest-common-denominator technology for inter-carrier communication is lazy, sloppy, insecure, and not protecting their own customers as well as the people that Apple consumers are trying to reach.

In other words, while you are essentially correct, its still a standard that should be used whenever available. Having Apple state that it uses RCS when it can is all I care about. This precedent is all over the internet (https vs http, TLS vs direct, etc) and and I don't accept as a general principle that Apple doesn't have the capacity to adopt it. It's just lazy that they don't, and harmful to consumers of both Apple and non-apple.

So to be clear and simple: it's like saying "we'll use HTTPS for apple consumers, but only HTTP for everything else. Even though there is a standard -- screw that standard."

And to any Apple employees who scan this, that's precisely what drives customers away. People have literally replied in this thread that the solution should be for those people to "just get iPhones". That's not how the world works. Apple needs to innovate beyond the walled garden to retain users, not play bully tactics and have the "angry mob" here insist the world needs to buy in to this proprietary messaging. SMS was the standard for all phones until now, RCS is the new standard, use it. I have seen people leave Apple over this and just start using 3rd party systems because firstly iMessage "aint all that" compared to the alternatives, and secondly, it's proprietary as hell.

And yes, other people can use pure data communications like WhatsApp, etc... that's not the point here. Just like SMS being a standard that's understood and accepted on all phones for basic text messaging, RCS is the evolution of that, and the new standard. It coexists and is the basic underlying text messaging solution for all phones.
 
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Maybe apple should drop support for SMTP, POP and IMAP and insist on using their own technology for exchanging emails. If you don't have an Apple device that's your problem eh?
 
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Could you explain these reasons?
Sure. In short it comes down to money and control. For ages SMS has been the cash cow of carriers. Now, think globally instead of US only. In most of the rest of the world SMS has been charged per unit until a few years ago. Even today some carriers still do. Then it’s the B2B market of SMS. SMS is still a good source of income for the needed confirmation SMS, 2FA, notifications and general ad services that many companies still employ. Those are purchased in bulk but since we are counting millions per day, it is still a sizeable revenue stream for carriers around the globe.

Nowadays carriers are in a very dire situation. Since it is pretty much impossible for them to increase their users’ ARPU (Average Revenue Per User) they try to scrap anything from anywhere. And this brings a catch-22 situation. On one hand they know how much SMS is lagging behind in terms of technology and messaging capabilities and loosing the train of more and better new revenue streams based on advanced services, but on the other hand they are unable to let go of SMS because no their standard has come from the GSMA that has catched on and represents the same level of control they have over the messaging infrastructure as they do today with SMS. If you have seen demos of RCS working for businesses and how they make use of chatbots (something alike iMessage for business that Apple has) you would realize how strong is the value proposition for the end user and how traffic from B2B messages would skyrocket compared to current SMS traffic.

GSMA, in strong cooperation with Google, has been flirting with carriers to push RCS on the premise that RCS and its promising view of advanced services would mean plenty of opportunities and tons of $$ for them. In a B2B scenario RCS messages will not be free for companies to use. At the time I was involved, there was not a definite price scheme for those and several lines of discussion were being carried out like bulk price, price after a number of free interactions or even price per use of different features. Also, since messages would not be encrypted the carrier would have implicit access to them for “whatever uses” the carrier may want to use them. At the time (and I think even now), E2E encryption was totally out of the table in the standard under the excuse that they needed to comply with forceful intercept with authorities.

But is it possible for SMS to be totally and completely deprecated so that carriers would switch off all of their SMSCs? Only if you make it completely universal for any handset as SMS is today. This is why GSMA has been giving false hope to carriers that Apple would eventually jump on the RCS wagon and hinting that they were in conversations with them. I never trusted that. Why would Apple want to do that and lose control and introduce all the restrictions that RCS sets in terms of architecture when they have full control and actually a much better, more secure and more private service? Since Apple has not bent in to that, Google (the main driving force in all this after the many unsuccessful attempts to have a universal messaging system for Android) has been using their marketing team to again and again try to push Apple to accept RCS by manipulating public perception of RCS , open and closed standards and pointing Apple as thr bad actor that doesn’t want interoperability.

Let’s be clear about this: the stakes are so high that unless Apple jumps in (and I seriously doubt it), RCS will fail inexorably.
 
Perhaps I'm in a minority, I don't care what colour text messages are. I don't care what system a message uses. I send someone a message, they either reply or they don't.

As long as they get it, the method in which they get it is totally irrelevant to me.
 
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On a more serious note, the persistent lack of support of standards and the seemingly more and more obvious intent to have user lock in has slowly driven me away from Apple.

From watch, iPad, MBP, iMac and iPhone. The only apple device that remains is the iPhone.

What bugs me is that the ONLY thing keeping me on iPhone is keychain. It is just far too much work to get my passwords into a different manager and finding one I trust as much as Apple.

I know I’m only 1 user and Apple won’t miss me. But it bugs me that intentional lock in is what keeps me on iPhone and not the iPhone features.
 
I don't know why this is even an issue when internet-based texting services exist like WhatsApp. I can't tell you the last time I actually used the Messages app. Everyone I text is on WhatsApp. I thought it was pretty much universal. (Perhaps it's a mostly Europe thing?)
 
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I don't know why this is even an issue when internet-based texting services exist like WhatsApp. I can't tell you the last time I actually used the Messages app. Everyone I text is on WhatsApp. I thought it was pretty much universal. (Perhaps it's a mostly Europe thing?)
I think it’s a Europe thing.

The only text message I send is to tell the gardener I’ve paid him when he texts me that he’s done it.

Every other interaction is via WhatsApp
 
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im sort of torn between not ever noticing a problem texting an android user, and anything that affects whatsapp is good as its the devils spawn.
I’m honestly not sure whether I consider Google or Facebook the greater evil, myself! Maybe Google, if just for their love of Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish? Other than that, they’re pretty much the same company. I find myself using Facebook (but only in website form) because I live away from family and a decent number of friends whose lives I still want to hear about some, and because my mom uses Facebook Messenger (RCS is a non-starter for her because, despite my siblings’ and my appeals to them, my parents don’t even own a cell phone) and my younger brother didn’t have a stable SMS environment for years (think SMS via one of those third party SMS apps, then Google Fi, which he didn’t like for a number of reasons, now he’s on a proper carrier and group SMS isn’t really an issue), so groups with either him or mom in them are stuck on Messenger. That and I’ve accidentally lost my wallet on public transportation more than once, and the finders found me on Facebook Messenger and reached out to me. So, in spite of all their issues, Facebook makes products that are still useful for me.

Google, I’ve tried to wean myself off of Google. I’ve used DuckDuckGo for a decade now (and, if I absolutely need to use Google because DDG isn’t returning results, that’s when I add a “!g” to the end of the search string). I use Google Maps, but I don’t use it while logged in, but I usually use it exclusively for Street View (and then, only if Look Around in Apple Maps isn’t available there) and Apple Maps is legitimately better than Google Maps for what I use it for. I’m occasionally stuck with Google Docs/Sheets if I need to collaborate on a document with someone (in a personal context, professional collaboration is usually done via internal work intranet tools). I have a Gmail account that, today, mostly gets used for some older account log ins and marketing messages, it’s just too much of a pain to get all of that off Gmail (and I prefer IMAP to webmail, so I hate how awkward Gmail over IMAP is). And the biggest reason I find it hard to avoid Google properties: YouTube’s online video sharing monopoly. I don’t listen to podcasts on YouTube (and if your podcast doesn’t have an RSS feed for me to subscribe to in my podcast app of choice, then your podcast isn’t worth listening to). But so many of the sorts of videos I enjoy and so many of the skills tutorial videos I use every now and then when furthering a hobby are exclusive to YouTube.

Edit: Honestly, I think I hate Google more. Facebook annoys me because of the ads, and I hate their tendency to Hoover up as much data as possible, but I feel like it’s possible to use the app without giving them too much data. I have some concerns (for myself, perhaps, but for society in general more specifically) when it comes to maintaining a healthy relationship with social media products that 1) doesn’t damage interpersonal relationships (Facebook does that thing where they encourage you to add your whole social graph, including coworkers, but I prefer to disconnect from work at the end of the work day, and combining multiple groups like that is a recipe for disaster), 2) doesn’t result in unhealthy comparisons or unhealthy usage patterns (mostly mental health), 3) doesn’t radicalize you in your own bubble (Facebook can do this, but Twitter is far worse on this count) and doesn’t cause you to viscously attack others, and 4) doesn’t contribute to oversharing. And I feel that the metaverse has the high potential to worsen those 4 situations. But Google sucks up just as much data, YouTube has a lot of the same problems as social media, and Google’s stewardship of YouTube hasn’t really been terribly beneficial to YouTube in the grand scheme of things (if just because Google’s opaque algorithmic ”customer service” manages to be more Byzantine and inscrutable for content creators than anything Facebook has done on its platforms). And there just aren’t Google alternatives, period. You can very well minimize your interactions with Facebook, even if you have an account. You could always use Telegram or Signal over Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp if that really matters to you. Google, inevitably you’ll find yourself without a choice when it comes to using one of their products, if just because there’s no real competitor to Google Docs/Sheets/Slides for (free*) real time collaboration or to YouTube for independent video content (Vimeo just doesn’t have the breadth or depth of content, and DailyMotion is most useful for its relatively lax copyright enforcement relative to YouTube, and none of the other would be challengers have any sort of critical mass**).

* Yeah, I know, free service = you’re the product, and there are some services online I’ll definitely pay for, but a bunch of online services aren’t worth paying for in my mind (and paid dating apps suck just as much as the free apps or freemium apps, so even paid apps can be abusive if the app’s goals aren’t aligned with yours)

** This is also the problem with the host of federated Facebook alternatives. Maybe there’d be a shot if everyone supporting them got behind one (I suppose you’d call it) “protocol”, though I doubt enough people want Facebook style social media on not-Facebook (most people looking to leave Facebook are probably content to leave social networking in general). The YouTube competitors need more than “the sorts of videos that would get demonetized on YouTube”, they need the long tail content, the mainstream-ish independent content (like knitting or watch repair tutorials, for instance), the unobjectionable stuff, but also the sorts of largely unobjectionable stuff that might occasionally skirt issue with ContentID (since ContentID has a fair use issue, and with abuse in general). But none of those videos are going to move over if none of the sites have a good population of viewers.
 
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I’m honestly not sure whether I consider Google or Facebook the greater evil, myself! Maybe Google, if just for their love of Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish? Other than that, they’re pretty much the same company. I find myself using Facebook (but only in website form) because I live away from family and a decent number of friends whose lives I still want to hear about some, and because my mom uses Facebook Messenger (RCS is a non-starter for her because, despite my siblings’ and my appeals to them, my parents don’t even own a cell phone) and my younger brother didn’t have a stable SMS environment for years (think SMS via one of those third party SMS apps, then Google Fi, which he didn’t like for a number of reasons, now he’s on a proper carrier and group SMS isn’t really an issue), so groups with either him or mom in them are stuck on Messenger. That and I’ve accidentally lost my wallet on public transportation more than once, and the finders found me on Facebook Messenger and reached out to me. So, in spite of all their issues, Facebook makes products that are still useful for me.

Google, I’ve tried to wean myself off of Google. I’ve used DuckDuckGo for a decade now (and, if I absolutely need to use Google because DDG isn’t returning results, that’s when I add a “!g” to the end of the search string). I use Google Maps, but I don’t use it while logged in, but I usually use it exclusively for Street View (and then, only if Look Around in Apple Maps isn’t available there) and Apple Maps is legitimately better than Google Maps for what I use it for. I’m occasionally stuck with Google Docs/Sheets if I need to collaborate on a document with someone (in a personal context, professional collaboration is usually done via internal work intranet tools). I have a Gmail account that, today, mostly gets used for some older account log ins and marketing messages, it’s just too much of a pain to get all of that off Gmail (and I prefer IMAP to webmail, so I hate how awkward Gmail over IMAP is). And the biggest reason I find it hard to avoid Google properties: YouTube’s online video sharing monopoly. I don’t listen to podcasts on YouTube (and if your podcast doesn’t have an RSS feed for me to subscribe to in my podcast app of choice, then your podcast isn’t worth listening to). But so many of the sorts of videos I enjoy and so many of the skills tutorial videos I use every now and then when furthering a hobby are exclusive to YouTube.


to be fair to whatsapp, its not remotely their fault that i think they are devils spawn. they just built an app and its probably a well built app.

its the way people talk about it 'have you got whatsapp!' 'ill whatsapp you!' (why is it always in a higher pitched voice) , or the way they honestly think the things they use it for can only be done on whatsapp. you hear middle aged housewives talking about whatsapp as if its as exciting as the first time they discovered wine, or guys talking about how their group chats are so funny as if they couldnt send a funny message by text. 'whatsapp got me through lockdown, if it wasnt for group chats....' Or in fact that people will send you pretty unfunny memes because its on whatsapp, and they wouldnt have sent it by text as youd have said 'why are you sending me this sh.t'.

and its the having to have another app that i dont like, just because some friends or colleagues will use it when they could have just used text, email, or facebook. I have one friend who will use all 3 sometimes in the same conversation. People will whatsapp me and ill see it and forget about it and not answer it whereas a text or an email or a facebook message id be more likely to see again. Or they call using it, 'cos its free!' when we all have unlimited calls.

im just grumpy about it. I personally have never had an issue with texting an android user, but almost all of my friends and family have iphones so imessage does everything i need it to.
 
to be fair to whatsapp, its not remotely their fault that i think they are devils spawn. they just built an app and its probably a well built app.

its the way people talk about it 'have you got whatsapp!' 'ill whatsapp you!' (why is it always in a higher pitched voice) , or the way they honestly think the things they use it for can only be done on whatsapp. you hear middle aged housewives talking about whatsapp as if its as exciting as the first time they discovered wine, or guys talking about how their group chats are so funny as if they couldnt send a funny message by text. 'whatsapp got me through lockdown, if it wasnt for group chats....' Or in fact that people will send you pretty unfunny memes because its on whatsapp, and they wouldnt have sent it by text as youd have said 'why are you sending me this sh.t'.

and its the having to have another app that i dont like, just because some friends or colleagues will use it when they could have just used text, email, or facebook. I have one friend who will use all 3 sometimes in the same conversation. People will whatsapp me and ill see it and forget about it and not answer it whereas a text or an email or a facebook message id be more likely to see again. Or they call using it, 'cos its free!' when we all have unlimited calls.

im just grumpy about it. I personally have never had an issue with texting an android user, but almost all of my friends and family have iphones so imessage does everything i need it to.
I’ve never had issue with texting my Android using family members, either, so I honestly don’t get what the hubbub over green bubbles is. I get that there are some issues with group SMS, especially with large groups, but are people seriously participating in large 10-20+ people group chats?! That just sounds like hell to me! I’m trying to spend less time on my phone because, when I have a family of my own, I don’t want to model smartphone addiction to my kids. I want to be able to teach them how to have a healthy relationship with smartphones and social media, set up appropriate boundaries, that sort of thing. (At the very least, to do what I do and charge their phones in another room so they don’t reach for them first thing in the morning.) I also want to spend time with them, make them a priority, in a way that I can’t do if I’ve got my nose in a phone screen all the time. I don’t want to be one of those people who use YouTube as a babysitter or who hand their phones or a tablet to kids to get them to shut up.

So your experiences with WhatsApp culture just sound dreadful. Granted, it’s usually people who make stuff like social media toxic (though design dark patterns can certainly contribute to making people toxic on social media), but we as a society these days have a profound discomfort with regards to discomfort. When I’m sitting on the train, I’m usually thinking to myself, usually having some chain of thought about my day or about the world. Or occasionally, I’ll knit on the train. But so many people are administering electronic self-medication in the form of not-at-all fun mobile games, social media, swiping dating apps, random videos they’ve downloaded to their phones (traditionally listened to via speakerphone!), music no one else cares about (traditionally listened to via loudspeaker! [and that’s only a slight exaggeration]), and public phone calls and video phone calls! All because they don’t want to be bored or don’t want to sit with their thoughts. It doesn’t really help with the sensation I get of NYC being a city where you can’t really find peace and quiet, even in your own apartment (someone will inevitably drive down the street blasting music or will speed down your residential street well in excess of the speed limit).
 
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"Apple should fix what's broken". I like that. As an apple user for over 30 years, I can name quite a few things that were fine before and are broken now.
Same here. I’ve gotten utterly sick of sending bug reports, since they seem not to care to fix existing bugs. It’s all about selling/pushing the next device by throwing in new “features” (occasionally one or two being genuinely useful).

Apple software is now approaching the level of Microsoft and the rest of this nightmare of user-abuse industry, in terms of product behavior inconsistency, bugs, and basic design stupidity.
 
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As for the topic at hand… If I have to have insecure texting with android users (I’ve several friends using it), it should be RCS, not SMS/MMS. The user experience is much worse than it needs to be. The “not invented here” attitude at Apple, combined with the effort to lock in customers, is just plain hostile in this case.
 
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