iTunes Europe - 1.29 Euros?

[the silver fox]

Big Label Badness

Whilst everyone is bitching about Apple, please bear in mind that they are dealing with each countries' uniquely awkward legal system. That is why iTMS Europe has been delayed so long thus far. For example, French government and their pirating tax for mp3 players is also being considered for any online stores. Go figure. Anyway, each country has different labels dealing with individual artists. Take someone popular in Europe like the trashy Kylie Minogue. Her album may be released in France on the 20th May, but the UK label don't want it released until the 5th June. They have to increase their prices do deal with the additional legal costs involved in sorting out the red tape.

 

[whooleytoo]

Whilst everyone is bitching about Apple, please bear in mind that they are dealing with each countries' uniquely awkward legal system.

Rather than "uniquely awkward", how about "awkwardly unique". The only difference now is that Apple are dealing with more than one country. I doubt the legal/copyright systems are any worse than the US - remember getting the US store set up took a hell of a lot of work too.

 

[greg75]

For example, French government and their pirating tax for mp3 players is also being considered for any online stores.

In the UK it's illegal to make private copies. In France it's not, because they pay royalties. Even in the US such royalties are paid (see AHRA), although not on the iPod.

UK Fair Use rights:

In particular, note that there is no general right of private copying in UK law, even for "media shifting". Since making any copy is an infringing act unless specifically exempted, and the only exemptions made are those listed above, private copies of a work such as copies of CD tracks in MP3 format on a PC are infringing copies.

In other words, most iPod owners in the UK are pirates. Criminal scum.

Regarding your "being considered for any online stores" comment, do you have a link to back that up? The current law covers only devices, so that would require an amendment. I suspect that no such amendment is in the works.

 

[frem001]

It's not just this

Sure it sucks, not being as cheap as the American (especially because the euro is stronger) iTMS, but it's hardly more expensive, and at least it's coming (and hey, it seems to be a lot of non-apple people doing this anyway. Hard to bitch out Apple for TAXES.)

We're also being ripped off with other hardware and software pricing and not just from apple, but i thought they would be more fair considering their need to sell products and make money.And taxes aren't the only reason for the higher price... poor conversion is also responsible. Apple would be able to compete with dell if their prices were lower... don't forget that consumers in europe care about saving as much money as possible... students also have it difficult... on top of mounting student debts they only get 10% off apple products... and what about other equipment and software. This all adds up... (violin fade out )

 

[frem001]

I wouldn't say that Americans get preferencial treatment. (we are the world's largest consumer, afterall)The reported prices are out of apple's control, and would be as high as they are reported to be because of YOUR economic system and its high taxes, not a world conspiracy to charge europeans more.

How would you feel to be in our position?

 

[skunk]

We're also being ripped off with other hardware and software pricing and not just from apple, but i thought they would be more fair considering their need to sell products and make money.And taxes aren't the only reason for the higher price... poor conversion is also responsible. Apple would be able to compete with dell if their prices were lower... don't forget that consumers in europe care about saving as much money as possible... students also have it difficult... on top of mounting student debts they only get 10% off apple products... and what about other equipment and software. This all adds up... (violin fade out )

Apple are NOT competing with Dell. I can still hear that violin....

 

[JFreak]

Whilst everyone is bitching about Apple, please bear in mind that they are dealing with each countries' uniquely awkward legal system.

apple has dealt with each us states' unique taxes already, so it will not be so much more awkward here in europe. the tax rates just are something around 20% whereas in us they are i think under 10% everywhere.

if apple can do it in us, they can do it in europe also. it's just a matter of how they want to place their price point (and as i stated earlier, how the RECORD LABELS want to make profit, those greedy pigs, they are supposedly wanting +45% from us europeans...)

 

[dekator]

We're also being ripped off with other hardware and software pricing and not just from apple, but i thought they would be more fair considering their need to sell products and make money.And taxes aren't the only reason for the higher price... poor conversion is also responsible. Apple would be able to compete with dell if their prices were lower... don't forget that consumers in europe care about saving as much money as possible... students also have it difficult... on top of mounting student debts they only get 10% off apple products... and what about other equipment and software. This all adds up... (violin fade out )

Too right. In my generation of students (mid 30) a lot of students bought Macs because there were great offers. Today some switch to PC for price (although few, most being convinced of Apple being the right choice). Still, hardly any young students can afford a Mac. 10% off Apple products ??? In Germany we get 3% ! Can you dig that? That's more of an insult than an offer... Well, ok, there is currently a promotion going on that gives you 'up to' 8% on computers... but that's only temporary.
Ok, take the latest 12" iBook. That's $1099 in the US (AppleStore). Equals €931. Take €931 add 16% VAT for Germany = €1080. In fact tho', it costs €1199. Ok, that's only $140, no big deal you might say. Still, the difference is exacerbated in the 'Pro-Line'. The dual 2GHz G5 is $2999 in the US = €2541 + VAT = €2984. In fact though, the machine costs a whopping €3.246,84, €236 or $278,50 more. No big deal? Perhaps, but imagine the iBook 12" being at $1240 rather than $1099... it just sounds so much uglier.

Added note: Needless to say this has nothing but absolutely nothing to do with an 'economic system'. M$ products and virtually all other IT products aren't more expensive here (some are cheaper) regardless of whether stuff comes from US or other companies. Ever heard of global markets? It doesn't matter s**t where the company sits. A Mercedes is much cheaper in the US than in Germany even tho' it's produced here. That's because of marketing. No other reason. So please leave your bogey men at home. And quit defending Apple where there is nothing to defend.
"Herr schmeiß Hirn vom Himmel!" (referring to Apple, not fellow debaters).

 

[the silver fox]

Rather than "uniquely awkward", how about "awkwardly unique". The only difference now is that Apple are dealing with more than one country. I doubt the legal/copyright systems are any worse than the US - remember getting the US store set up took a hell of a lot of work too.

You seem to be missing my point. In the US all the music is controlled by the same Labels across all the states, therefore one set of labels to deal with. In the EU, each country has its own music and copyright laws and each label is independantly owned hence the problem. What is good for France wont make the German or uk labels happy (etc etc), which is why Gabriel's O2 service is so damn expensive.

 

[takao]

Ever heard of global markets? It doesn't matter s**t where the company sits. A Mercedes is much cheaper in the US than in Germany even tho' it's produced here. That's because of marketing. No other reason. So please leave your bogey men at home. And quit defending Apple where there is nothing to defend.

addition: before somebody can post "mercedes is an exception":
VWs are cheaper outside of germany.. because they want to gain marketshare
Peugeots are cheaper in germany than france...because the want to gain market share

"Herr schmeiß Hirn vom Himmel!" (referring to Apple, not fellow debaters).

that made my day

 

[ssloane]

No WAY!

At 1,29€ each song (that's 15,50€ per CD with 12 songs. that's the same as in the store!) I will continue to buy pirate CDs on the street at 2€ each!

 

[skunk]

At 1,29€ each song (that's 15,50€ per CD with 12 songs. that's the same as in the store!) I will continue to buy pirate CDs on the street at 2€ each!

Well presumably you wouldn't be interested in iTMS whatever price they were charging, then. Why don't you make your own music instead of stealing it?

 

[ssloane]

dead wrong!

Well presumably you wouldn't be interested in iTMS whatever price they were charging, then. Why don't you make your own music instead of stealing it?

If prices were more in line with the US prices I would happily use iTMS!!!! People need to bear in mind that in many countries in the EU salaries are very low and 1,29 per song is very high...

 

[skunk]

If prices were more in line with the US prices I would happily use iTMS!!!! People need to bear in mind that in many countries in the EU salaries are very low and 1,29 per song is very high...

€1.29 IS in line with US prices if you accept the rumoured €0.80 the fees are costing, and add on VAT. EU salaries are NOT "very low", and anyway, it's completely irrelevant.

 

[JFreak]

€1.29 IS in line with US prices if you accept the rumoured €0.80 the fees are costing, and add on VAT. EU salaries are NOT "very low", and anyway, it's completely irrelevant.

the problem is exactly the 80 euro cents the record labels are supposedly trying to get - apple should call their bluff and make them agree for same prices they have agreed on us store. 66 american cents equals 55 euro cents, and the additional 25 euro cents are effectively a 45% price increase.

 

[skunk]

the problem is exactly the 80 euro cents the record labels are supposedly trying to get - apple should call their bluff and make them agree for same prices they have agreed on us store. 66 american cents equals 55 euro cents, and the additional 25 euro cents are effectively a 45% price increase.

No it's not like that. You are forgetting the VAT. You have to allow SOME margin for currency fluctuation as well. This is supposed to be a long-term deal. Remember that the labels originally bargained for iTMS to be only on US MacOSX, and according to SJ they agreed to a long-term deal back then, before anyone knew what would happen. It began as a tiny percentage of the market, a sideshow for the labels. Now it's grown so fast, and moved to Windoze, and is moving to Europe, they realize they have a different scenario completely. Rather than being a sideshow, it might become the main event. Of course the labels ARE still being greedy, parasitic ******s, but you can see why they want to renegotiate now they have the chance. And Apple is under HUGE pressure to get this thing out of the door.

 

[Omen88]

€1.29 IS in line with US prices if you accept the rumoured €0.80 the fees are costing, and add on VAT. EU salaries are NOT "very low", and anyway, it's completely irrelevant.

There are big differences in wages in the EU, so there are countries where salaries are low. Poland and Portugal are 2 I can think of. Since we have the Euro everything has become a lot more expensive as well.

 

[JFreak]

No it's not like that. You are forgetting the VAT.

how many times have i calculated this? if the record labels would be happy with 0.55 euros per song (same as they are getting in us, 0.66usd, according to apple), then you could compare the price directly with itms us store, which is i believe prices before tax. so take that 0.99usd which equals 0.825eur, and add an average vat of 20% --> you get 0.99eur.

that is, if record labels agree with the same price they agreed in us, and apple is fine with the same marginal they are happy in us. 0.99eur per song can very well include the european vat, because of the currency rates, IF... just IF record labels don't get greedy.

if the final european itms price is more than 0.99eur per song, there's only record labels to blame. not the vat, not the currency rates, i believe not apple either. it's all about record labels, those greedy pigs, who some how think that europeans should be charged more than americans.

+45% is an outrage. if record lablels are happy with americans paying them 0.55 dollars, why on earth they believe europeans are happily paying 0.80 euros (0.96 dollars) for the same file? i'd somehow accept some small increase, say 5-10%, but +45% is something i will not even try to understand.

europeans are not stupid. if the song costs more than one euro, the itms europe will not be a success.

 

[skunk]

if the final european itms price is more than 0.99eur per song, there's only record labels to blame. not the vat, not the currency rates, i believe not apple either. it's all about record labels, those greedy pigs, who some how think that europeans should be charged more than americans.

+45% is an outrage. if record lablels are happy with americans paying them 0.55 dollars, why on earth they believe europeans are happily paying 0.80 euros (0.96 dollars) for the same file? i'd somehow accept some small increase, say 5-10%, but +45% is something i will not even try to understand.

Don't forget the US sales tax: few people in the US actually pay only 99c.

 

[JFreak]

Don't forget the US sales tax: few people in the US actually pay only 99c.

no i'm not forgetting; i compared us pre-tax price to an imaginary eu pre-tax price, and after that i added an average eu vat of 20% - is it hard to understand that euro is stronger than us dollar, and we could very well get a 0.99eur per song price with tax included, IF record labels (annd apple) would be satisfied with same kind of profit margins than they are right now getting from all the itms us sales?

to repeat myself: if eu price is more than 0.99eur per song, someone is not playing fair. either record labels or apple, or both.

(pre-tax 0.99usd equals pre-tax 0.825eur. add 20% and it results to 0.99eur, average 20% tax included.)

 

[JLL]

Exactly - people are forgetting that the price given INCLUDES a fixed pan-european tax rate - iTMS USA is 99c plus tax...

However, VAT tax is different in each country - as previously stated it's 17.5% in the UK and different in other places. So I'm not quite sure how they've managed to get a fixed tax rate, or whether this figure only applies to France?

Apple charges the same for Mac OS X and other things throughout Europe, but the price BEFORE tax is not the same.

CDs are €21.50 here in Denmark btw.

 

[gopher]

that's bull****! 1.29 euros for a song is almost the same I pay for my music that I buy on CD! how the hell can there be so big differences in taxes and licensing fees? I mean, 1€ is like $1,20! So the music in europe would cost about $1,5! nice one. I really hope this isn't true.. else the itmseu will fail

Umm...remember, that's per song. And most songs don't require you buy the whole Album. When you are talking a 16 song album, and that there might be one or two good songs per album, you may have saved yourself as much as 8 times the asking price.

 

[gekko513]

to repeat myself: if eu price is more than 0.99eur per song, someone is not playing fair. either record labels or apple, or both.

This is also my view. And I think it's the record labels who are not playing fair. Hopefully this whole rumor is wrong.

 

[frem001]

Apple are NOT competing with Dell. I can still hear that violin....

Yes they are especially in the Education market... were have you been all this time? (you)

 

[frem001]

Too right. In my generation of students (mid 30) a lot of students bought Macs because there were great offers. Today some switch to PC for price (although few, most being convinced of Apple being the right choice). Still, hardly any young students can afford a Mac. 10% off Apple products ??? In Germany we get 3% ! Can you dig that? That's more of an insult than an offer... Well, ok, there is currently a promotion going on that gives you 'up to' 8% on computers... but that's only temporary.
Ok, take the latest 12" iBook. That's $1099 in the US (AppleStore). Equals €931. Take €931 add 16% VAT for Germany = €1080. In fact tho', it costs €1199. Ok, that's only $140, no big deal you might say. Still, the difference is exacerbated in the 'Pro-Line'. The dual 2GHz G5 is $2999 in the US = €2541 + VAT = €2984. In fact though, the machine costs a whopping €3.246,84, €236 or $278,50 more. No big deal? Perhaps, but imagine the iBook 12" being at $1240 rather than $1099... it just sounds so much uglier.

Added note: Needless to say this has nothing but absolutely nothing to do with an 'economic system'. M$ products and virtually all other IT products aren't more expensive here (some are cheaper) regardless of whether stuff comes from US or other companies. Ever heard of global markets? It doesn't matter s**t where the company sits. A Mercedes is much cheaper in the US than in Germany even tho' it's produced here. That's because of marketing. No other reason. So please leave your bogey men at home. And quit defending Apple where there is nothing to defend.
"Herr schmeiß Hirn vom Himmel!" (referring to Apple, not fellow debaters).

Thanks for doing the hard work to prove my point.