iTunes Movies - HDR10/Dolby Vision

[big samm]

So for now if i stream a DV movie i will switch manually to DV 30hz if the movie is in HDR i will switch to hdr 60hz... that’s my only solution for the moment. Why can’t it just work like my 4k bluray player? If i put a DV movie my tv will pop up a DV icon, same thing for HDR movies, tv switches to HDR mode automatically! Why can’t the apple tv do the same? If i stream a DV movie switch it to dv and vice versa for hdr movies. Now we have to do this manually, hope they fix this in a update

 

[Cryates]

Anyone notice this with Netflix, I have and HDR TV and Netflix label show as DV and Ultra 4K but no HDR, does this Apple Netflix app not do HDR cause I cant find any titles that are HDR.

They are not labeled on the menu page, but while playing if you swipe down to pull up info, it will show the HDR or Dolby Vision tags.

 

[jaysue]

Dolby Vision is HDR.

I thought DV and HDR10 were different, I just thought Netflix would display the label your TV supports, my other devices do.
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They are not labeled on the menu page, but while playing if you swipe down to pull up info, it will show the HDR or Dolby Vision tags.

I tried that and it shows 4K DV, which I thought was weird cause my TV doesn’t support DV, I seen it with iTunes witch everyone is talking about, I just thought Netflix would correct it, I understand that this box supports both, it would just be nice if it would adjust to your display.

 

[big samm]

I thought DV and HDR10 were different, I just thought Netflix would display the label your TV supports, my other devices do.

Well on my tv they are 2 different settings, if i play a DV movie or tv show on Netflix, as soon as press play i get a icon pop up saying DV, if i use amazon prime and play a HDR show or movie i will get HDR icon pop up.

This is using Netflix built in app on my smart tv

This is using Amzon prime videos built in app on smart tv

 

[Spankey]

I thought DV and HDR10 were different, I just thought Netflix would display the label your TV supports, my other devices do.

They are different implementations of HDR but both are HDR. If that makes sense.

 

[jaysue]

Well on my tv they are 2 different settings, if i play a DV movie or tv show on Netflix, as soon as press play i get a icon pop up saying DV, if i use amazon prime and play a HDR show or movie i will get HDR icon pop up.

This is using Netflix built in app on my smart tv

This is using Amzon prime videos built in app on smart tv

No I understand, I was just saying my TV doesn’t support Dolby Vision, I was just wondering why the Netflix description page would display DV when I don’t have it, like on my XBox One s I don’t have an DV label on the shows description page, it shows HDR, Ultra 4K or HD.

 

[Packers1958]

HDR requires that the base HDR is HDR10, and DV is layered on top. So if you do not have a DV tv, it will fall back to HDR10. That is the standard the industry has agreed upon. So when HDR10+ comes out, the base layer will remain HDR10.

 

[err404]

My TV is HDR10 only (Samsung). The Apple TV 4K never switches video modes, so my TV stays in HDR mode even for SDR content. This is fine but requires me to recalibrate. Keep in mind that this seams to mean that if your TV supports both HDR10 and DV, it won’t switch modes.
Now here is the interesting thing. Netflix is only has HDR in DV, but their HDR content looks like true HDR on my TV, with rich blacks and very bright whites. SDR content on Netflix does not show this range.
So as far as I can, tell the Apple TV is doing something to show a wider than normal range when displaying Dolby Vision content via HDR10. I need to experiment more.
Watch the Cosmic Laundromat as a good example.

 

[PhilippLA]

I’m very confused by all of this as well. Is Apple doing some weird HDR10/Dolby Vision Cross conversion? I don’t like this at all. Just switch modes. Damn.

 

[canyonblue737]

Have we all figured out a final answer to this yet? I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a 75 inch Sony X900E 4k/HDR tv that does NOT support Dolby Vision. In this size / quality of tv I have to spend $1000 more to get a model that also supports Dolby Vision, not just HDR10. While essentially ALL UHD Blurays that support Dolby Vision also have a HDR10 version included, iTunes is labeling movies as either Dolby Vision, OR HDR10... non specifically show both. Considering most of the movies on iTunes with HDR, have DV listed I don't want to make a huge mistake and get a tv that doesn't support Dolby Vision IF that means I get NO HDR at all with many of the iTunes movies, on the other hand if they are defaulting back to HDR10 that is fine to me with current generation tvs in my price range.

 

[cynics]

Have we all figured out a final answer to this yet? I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a 75 inch Sony X900E 4k/HDR tv that does NOT support Dolby Vision. In this size / quality of tv I have to spend $1000 more to get a model that also supports Dolby Vision, not just HDR10. While essentially ALL UHD Blurays that support Dolby Vision also have a HDR10 version included, iTunes is labeling movies as either Dolby Vision, OR HDR10... non specifically show both. Considering most of the movies on iTunes with HDR, have DV listed I don't want to make a huge mistake and get a tv that doesn't support Dolby Vision IF that means I get NO HDR at all with many of the iTunes movies, on the other hand if they are defaulting back to HDR10 that is fine to me with current generation tvs in my price range.

This is difficult to say for sure without Apple explicitly saying so, test equipment, or Apple allowing 4K content download to inspect the file..

I have a Samsung KS9000 which is HDR10 only (HDR10+ after a update but moot point).

The main issue I have that makes it difficult to compare is the I can only get a good image when its calibrated for SDR or HDR. So I can't quickly skip back and forth.

The second issue is the faux HDR. Even if I wasn't getting the HDR data from the Dolby Vision source that was mastered into the content would I be able to tell through the faux HDR?

Another interesting thing is Netflix auto detection for devices. If I set 4K SDR, close the app, restart the AppleTV, give it a second, it shows all the HDR content as "Ultra 4K". If I set 4K HDR 4:2:0 Chroma, close the app, restart the AppleTV, give it a second, it shows all the HDR content as HDR. Now if I set 4K HDR 4:2:2 Chroma, close the app blah blah....it shows all the HDR content as Dolby Vision.

Only thing I can say is when switching between the SmartTV Netflix app on content labeled HDR it looks identical to my AppleTV 4k Netflix app on the same content labeled Dolby Vision. Also when watching movies that are HDR and Dolby Vision from iTunes back to back they look to be comparable. So I can only assume, like others have mentioned Apple is using the HDR data shared with Dolby Vision.

As far as buying a TV, unless you absolutely need a TV you may want to wait until the Dolby Vision version drops. That way you get the best mastering of HDR content now and in the future.

 

[archer75]

HDR requires that the base HDR is HDR10, and DV is layered on top. So if you do not have a DV tv, it will fall back to HDR10. That is the standard the industry has agreed upon. So when HDR10+ comes out, the base layer will remain HDR10.

That is not true. DV is it's own thing and not part of HDR10. It does not fall back if you don't have a DV TV. The streaming service just has 2 different copies. Some movies in DV are not also available in HDR10. This is true of itunes where apple states it could be one or the other or both. On VUDU it's DV only. There are no HDR10 copies.

If you're buying a TV i'd get the one that supports the most formats. LG for OLED, sony has some DV capable OLEDS but they're using LG panels. On a lower budget i'd go Vizio as you also get DV and once calibrated they have an excellent picture.

 

[Packers1958]

That is not true. DV is it's own thing and not part of HDR10. It does not fall back if you don't have a DV TV. The streaming service just has 2 different copies. Some movies in DV are not also available in HDR10. This is true of itunes where apple states it could be one or the other or both. On VUDU it's DV only. There are no HDR10 copies.

If you're buying a TV i'd get the one that supports the most formats. LG for OLED, sony has some DV capable OLEDS but they're using LG panels. On a lower budget i'd go Vizio as you also get DV and once calibrated they have an excellent picture.

You are right. I should have been more specific. UHD discs require HDR10 as base layer. So a UHD disc that has DV HDR, will also have HDR10.

 

[cynics]

That is not true. DV is it's own thing and not part of HDR10. It does not fall back if you don't have a DV TV. The streaming service just has 2 different copies. Some movies in DV are not also available in HDR10. This is true of itunes where apple states it could be one or the other or both. On VUDU it's DV only. There are no HDR10 copies.

If you're buying a TV i'd get the one that supports the most formats. LG for OLED, sony has some DV capable OLEDS but they're using LG panels. On a lower budget i'd go Vizio as you also get DV and once calibrated they have an excellent picture.

This is precisely true, however maybe a little too precisely.

Netflix for example uses Dolby Vision masters and using Dolby's tools extracts HDR10. The reason you'll find DV only support randomly is because the HDR10 needs to be converted to Rec.2020 and than manually color corrected..

While HDR10 is contained (as means of being extracted) its not anything a set top box can do on the fly.

 

[canyonblue737]

ugh... what a mess i'm walking into getting a tv in the middle of a format war. i'm sure the fall 2018 tvs will have both standard but right now very few have dolby vision, in particular in large sizes. vizio in the M-series has both in a 70-inch tv for a decent price ($2400) but the tv itself is dimmer, has worse blacks, and more input lag than the 75 inch sony X900E i was looking at ($3200) but only has HDR10. as the CEO of netflix says, "don't expect a $400 tv with dolby vision to look better than a $10,000 tv with only HDR10" so in an effort to get both i may end up with a *worse* tv. i know i want HDR and since i'm a big applet tv user i was hoping that the vast majority of their films would have both and not just focus on the newer dolby vision format that few tvs have. another option? the sony X940E has both in a 75 inch for $4200!

ugh. when i replace the 55 inch in my bedroom i will get a LG OLED which has both HDR standards but that size tv is much cheaper right now.

(i'd wait but i really had my heart set on a 4k tv this fall for the living room, having already purchased the appletv 4k and preordered a 4k Xbox One X.)

 

[cynics]

ugh... what a mess i'm walking into getting a tv in the middle of a format war. i'm sure the fall 2018 tvs will have both standard but right now very few have dolby vision, in particular in large sizes. vizio in the M-series has both in a 70-inch tv for a decent price ($2400) but the tv itself is dimmer, has worse blacks, and more input lag than the 75 inch sony X900E i was looking at ($3200) but only has HDR10. as the CEO of netflix says, "don't expect a $400 tv with dolby vision to look better than a $10,000 tv with only HDR10" so in an effort to get both i may end up with a *worse* tv. i know i want HDR and since i'm a big applet tv user i was hoping that the vast majority of their films would have both and not just focus on the newer dolby vision format that few tvs have. another option? the sony X940E has both in a 75 inch for $4200!

ugh. when i replace the 55 inch in my bedroom i will get a LG OLED which has both HDR standards but that size tv is much cheaper right now.

(i'd wait but i really had my heart set on a 4k tv this fall for the living room, having already purchased the appletv 4k and preordered a 4k Xbox One X.)

I would focus on a TV that is good at gaming. If you buy a nice set because it supports a certain mode of HDR but it has a 100ms response time you might as well send the Xbox back.

When I bought my Samsung TV I got it specifically for gaming because at the time it had one of the lowest response times (in gaming mode) for a TV that size on the market. Plus it offered HDR in gaming mode.

At the time of purchase the LG OLED clearly produced a better image but not only did it have a higher input lag, no HDR gaming mode but it was 2000 dollars more expensive (yeessh). However I think with firmware updates they've actually managed to reduce the input lag quite a bit and add HDR to game mode.

 

[archer75]

ugh... what a mess i'm walking into getting a tv in the middle of a format war. i'm sure the fall 2018 tvs will have both standard but right now very few have dolby vision, in particular in large sizes. vizio in the M-series has both in a 70-inch tv for a decent price ($2400) but the tv itself is dimmer, has worse blacks, and more input lag than the 75 inch sony X900E i was looking at ($3200) but only has HDR10. as the CEO of netflix says, "don't expect a $400 tv with dolby vision to look better than a $10,000 tv with only HDR10" so in an effort to get both i may end up with a *worse* tv. i know i want HDR and since i'm a big applet tv user i was hoping that the vast majority of their films would have both and not just focus on the newer dolby vision format that few tvs have. another option? the sony X940E has both in a 75 inch for $4200!

ugh. when i replace the 55 inch in my bedroom i will get a LG OLED which has both HDR standards but that size tv is much cheaper right now.

(i'd wait but i really had my heart set on a 4k tv this fall for the living room, having already purchased the appletv 4k and preordered a 4k Xbox One X.)

IMO 4k isn't a big deal. Depending on size and viewing distance you really can't tell a difference from a quality 1080p source and 4k. The game changer is HDR. That's where the big quality difference comes from.
Samsung and others will NOT be supporting Dolby Vision. Instead they are going with HDR10+ which is what amazon will be going with.
My brother in law has a 4k Vizio with HDR/Dolby Vision and it looks pretty damn nice. Almost to the point where i'd almost rather spend the money I spent on my 65" LG on getting an 80" Vizio. Reference model if I could swing it.

They say LG OLEDs are dim. Mine is at times too bright. So don't go just by specs. It's all how it looks in your viewing environment.
Input lag seems to be something some people notice while others don't. I've never noticed it on any TV. I have an older vizio M series I don't see it on and my LG OLED before the firmware update I never noticed it. Maybe it's just me.

 

[archer75]

This is precisely true, however maybe a little too precisely.

Netflix for example uses Dolby Vision masters and using Dolby's tools extracts HDR10. The reason you'll find DV only support randomly is because the HDR10 needs to be converted to Rec.2020 and than manually color corrected..

While HDR10 is contained (as means of being extracted) its not anything a set top box can do on the fly.

Sort of. Both Dolby Vision and HDR10 are based on SMPTE ST 2084. But they are also different. What it sounds like netflix is doing is extracting that part of it from DV using the tools and then has to convert that to HDR10. So DV isn't on top of HDR10 perse but rather they are based on the same standard and go their different directions. If it was based on HDR10 you'd just remove the dynamic metadata and you'd be left with HDR10 without the need for conversion. But perhaps that's just splitting hairs.

From netflix:
"Many Dolby Vision masters are in P3 colorspace. For HDR10, we have to convert to rec.2020 color space with some processing and a color adjustment."

 

[canyonblue737]

IMO 4k isn't a big deal. Depending on size and viewing distance you really can't tell a difference from a quality 1080p source and 4k. The game changer is HDR. That's where the big quality difference comes from.
Samsung and others will NOT be supporting Dolby Vision. Instead they are going with HDR10+ which is what amazon will be going with.
My brother in law has a 4k Vizio with HDR/Dolby Vision and it looks pretty damn nice. Almost to the point where i'd almost rather spend the money I spent on my 65" LG on getting an 80" Vizio. Reference model if I could swing it.

They say LG OLEDs are dim. Mine is at times too bright. So don't go just by specs. It's all how it looks in your viewing environment.
Input lag seems to be something some people notice while others don't. I've never noticed it on any TV. I have an older vizio M series I don't see it on and my LG OLED before the firmware update I never noticed it. Maybe it's just me.

I agree with some of that. HDR *is* the game changer. Dolby Vision supports an up to 10 times greater difference between light and dark vs. HDR10 BUT *no* TV made today supports the ability to do that, even tvs that support Dolby Vision. That means that today the quality difference between a Dolby Vision and HDR10 encode is far more minimal but as tv technology improves older Dolby Vision movies should continue to look better and better but HDR10 not as much ... another issue it seems some providers, including iTunes, are now releasing movies that ONLY have a Dolby Vision encode, they simply don't have a HDR10 encode at all so if your tv doesn't support Dolby Vision you get NO HDR AT ALL with that movie which as you admittedly correctly said is MORE IMPORTANT than 4k. That's terrible.

That's my concern. I was hoping to get a better TV today (blacks, brightness, upscaling, input lag etc.) that only supported HDR10 (thinking all movies everywhere would have HDR10 with Dolby Vision being an option, oooopps... looks like I'm wrong!) but that would do a great job until years down the line the technology exists for far better HDR that Dolby Vision is prepared for but now I'm scared if I don't get a tv that supports both today I literally won't get to see ANY HDR in many movies that support Dolby Vision which is unacceptable as that's the whole point of why I'm getting a new tv, new AppleTV box, and new game system. The only way I can have it all is to spend a fortune so now I have to pick... future proof the HDR by getting a TV that has HDR10/DV or risk losing some movies in HDR with a tv that is HDR10 only but has much better qualities like black levels, upscaling, and lag. Hmmm. I have till mid November to decide and tv prices drop.

 

[archer75]

I agree with some of that. HDR *is* the game changer. Dolby Vision supports an up to 10 times greater difference between light and dark vs. HDR10 BUT *no* TV made today supports the ability to do that, even tvs that support Dolby Vision. That means that today the quality difference between a Dolby Vision and HDR10 encode is far more minimal but as tv technology improves older Dolby Vision movies should continue to look better and better but HDR10 not as much ... another issue it seems some providers, including iTunes, are now releasing movies that ONLY have a Dolby Vision encode, they simply don't have a HDR10 encode at all so if your tv doesn't support Dolby Vision you get NO HDR AT ALL with that movie which as you admittedly correctly said is MORE IMPORTANT than 4k. That's terrible.

That's my concern. I was hoping to get a better TV today (blacks, brightness, upscaling, input lag etc.) that only supported HDR10 (thinking all movies everywhere would have HDR10 with Dolby Vision being an option, oooopps... looks like I'm wrong!) but that would do a great job until years down the line the technology exists for far better HDR that Dolby Vision is prepared for but now I'm scared if I don't get a tv that supports both today I literally won't get to see ANY HDR in many movies that support Dolby Vision which is unacceptable as that's the whole point of why I'm getting a new tv, new AppleTV box, and new game system. The only way I can have it all is to spend a fortune so now I have to pick... future proof the HDR by getting a TV that has HDR10/DV or risk losing some movies in HDR with a tv that is HDR10 only but has much better qualities like black levels, upscaling, and lag. Hmmm. I have till mid November to decide and tv prices drop.

The only aspect of Dolby Vision not supported by tv's today is 12bit. And well authored movies with Dolby Vision are a pretty big difference from HDR10. Some are not authored well and DV and HDR10 both end up looking the same.

LED tv's can get much brighter than OLED tv's so you will see much more of that difference on a Vizio. However as I mentioned before, my LG OLED gets too damn bright sometimes and I certainly don't have the brightness at max. So i'm not sure that a brighter tv is needed.
HDR10+ will minimize some of the differences from HDR10 and Dolby Vision but you won't know for certain if a TV purchased today will get that update. They are all capable of it but will the manufacturer update it? Both LG and Denon updated their 2016 models for HLG which requires HDMI 2.0b which is also a requirement of HDR10+ so technically they could.

 

[canyonblue737]

The only aspect of Dolby Vision not supported by tv's today is 12bit. And well authored movies with Dolby Vision are a pretty big difference from HDR10. Some are not authored well and DV and HDR10 both end up looking the same.

LED tv's can get much brighter than OLED tv's so you will see much more of that difference on a Vizio. However as I mentioned before, my LG OLED gets too damn bright sometimes and I certainly don't have the brightness at max. So i'm not sure that a brighter tv is needed.
HDR10+ will minimize some of the differences from HDR10 and Dolby Vision but you won't know for certain if a TV purchased today will get that update. They are all capable of it but will the manufacturer update it? Both LG and Denon updated their 2016 models for HLG which requires HDMI 2.0b which is also a requirement of HDR10+ so technically they could.

The TV I'm looking at (Sony X900E, or gulp, X940E) are LED and can get far brighter than the Vizio M-series, and have deeper blacks as they use local dimming. OLEDs don't get as bright but NOTHING gets as dark as an OLED so the split (contrast, the whole point of HDR) is often as good or better than LED however. TVs out there aren't 12 bit like you said but they also don't have the ability to cover the full contrast split that Dolby Vision supports today, that will of course change in time.

HDR10+ may help like you said but its not quite true that todays HDR10 tvs will be getting a full update, the full HDR10+ spec requires HDMI 2.1 which is coming to most tvs in 2018 and isn't present in 2017 models, so the updates (for example for Samsung which is hardcore HDR10) will allow HDR10+ via streaming sources only, you will never get HDR10+ content by cable, so no UHD Bluray support or future cable box support etc. For that you'll need a new tv.

 

[archer75]

The TV I'm looking at (Sony X900E, or gulp, X940E) are LED and can get far brighter than the Vizio M-series, and have deeper blacks as they use local dimming. OLEDs don't get as bright but NOTHING gets as dark as an OLED so the split (contrast, the whole point of HDR) is often as good or better than LED however. TVs out there aren't 12 bit like you said but they also don't have the ability to cover the full contrast split that Dolby Vision supports today, that will of course change in time.

HDR10+ may help like you said but its not quite true that todays HDR10 tvs will be getting a full update, the full HDR10+ spec requires HDMI 2.1 which is coming to most tvs in 2018 and isn't present in 2017 models, so the updates (for example for Samsung which is hardcore HDR10) will allow HDR10+ via streaming sources only, you will never get HDR10+ content by cable, so no UHD Bluray support or future cable box support etc. For that you'll need a new tv.

Vizios use local dimming as well and have for many years. My old 1080p Vizio M series has local diming though on todays vizios they have a lot more zones.
And I really don't think you'd need anything that gets brighter. Once it's in your room and calibrated you're going to have that brightness turned down anyways so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. Just because DV supports a greater range doesn't mean it's going to be used. Just that it could be.

From what I have read HDMI 2.0b can support HDR10+ and HDMI 2.1 is mostly for supporting 8k and high bandwidths. It's just dynamic metadata which DV is doing down on HDMI 1.4

HLG is used for broadcast content. So if cable/sat ever does HDR it will be HLG.

Ultimately DV is what you want. If movies are filmed in HDR then they are all filming in DV. Both Vudu and itunes use DV. As does netflix and amazon. Discs are now using DV and the floodgates are just opening. HDR is the best part of moving to 4k and if it were me(and it was last year) i'd ONLY consider tv's that support DV. With DV being everywhere you won't even want or need HDR10+

 

[guitarguy316]

Tried to play despicable me 1/2 in DV 24hz and the screen is almost totally black. All other movies in DV work fine.

 

[cynics]

The only aspect of Dolby Vision not supported by tv's today is 12bit.

12-bit color depth, Rec.2020 color space and 10,000 nit peak brightness for mastering are 3 features Dolby Vision supports but no consumer TV support.

What is experience on Dolby Vision TV's today will only look better as TV's get closer to best values Dolby Vision can provide. Dolby Vision itself is future proofed, not the TV's its on though. HDR10 and 10+ is the same only with a lower cap.

In my unprofessional opinion the reason Dolby Vision "typically" looks better today is because the TV that supports it is just better in a lot of case. HDR10 and even SDR will look better on that TV, comparatively speak. So much to this point that a LG OLED can look better in SDR than the cheapest HDR TV will look in DV.

 

[archer75]

HDR TV's support Rec.2020 though dolby vision primarily uses the P3 color space right now(per netflix). My Nvidia shield supports rec.2020 and my TV shows it as well. A better statement would be that no consumer grade tv supports the FULL range of colors in Rec.2020. But they do support a percentage of it and that varies by TV. HDR10 also supports Rec.2020

Just because the spec allows for a higher brightness doesn't mean it's required or that it will be taken advantage of by all content. Today's TV's get plenty bright enough as is. Dolby settled on 10,000nits because they figured it would be good for 90% of people. Though it can support over 14,000nits.

From wikipedia: The colour depth allows up to 10,000-nit maximum brightness (mastered to 4,000-nit in practice.)
My 2016 LG OLED gets more than bright enough and has amazing colors and depth of colors. And it's only 630 to 730nits for HDR. I can't even imagine having 10000nits! It will be a LONG time before they even come close to hitting that.

Dolby Vision looks better than HDR10 because it is better. Yes, even on todays tv's. It supports dynamic HDR which HDR10 does not. Same tv, comparing DV and HDR10 on the same content, if it's mastered well you will indeed see a noticeable difference in favor of DV. HDR10+ will narrow the gap. But it doesn't much matter as DV will be on all content eventually. It's already well on its way.

So yeah, future tv's will continue to look better and better. That is to be expected. If you buy now there will be something better in the future. If you wait to buy something in the next couple of years there will be something better a couple of years after that. It's just the way it goes.