Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
if Tim apple can't figure out how to split up the developer fees into the different resources needed for the iPhone, I'm sure there's others that want to be CEO.
The current leadership will go to their graves making sure they squeeze every single dime they can from developers. They still think Apple is this struggling company that almost went bankrupt instead of a $4T behemoth. They think others are only successful because of Apple and they’re all trying to screw Apple over. Maybe things will change when Cook, Schiller and Cue are completely retired from the company.
 
Yeah!

Can't wait till we reach 100 countries with all different regulations. That will just be fantastic. 👍
Yup! There will come a time in the future when there’s middlemen companies in place that are yoinking their profits off the top of what Apple ends up taking due to small developers needing someone else to deal with the additional complexity. And that really is the point. There are companies that want into that chain and this gives them an opening. The total cost to a small developer will increase.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marte91
Every time this happens it further undermines their arguments for not doing it everywhere. This cannot be an efficient use of engineering and legal resources.
In my mind, it actually strongly points that contrary to the thoughts of most here, Apple actually truly thinks it's worse for their users and therefore will spend extra to ensure only those users whose governments who think they know better than Apple are negatively impacted.
 
most FUD regarding security and privacy is debunked, many other countries will demand the same treatment for their citizens.
Yes, governments that really want easy access to their citizens’ devices would of COURSE say that what everyone’s saying about security and privacy is FUD. :) “You don’t need security and privacy from us! You don’t need it from the ad companies either, we’re all your friends, guy!”
 
  • Haha
Reactions: marte91
In my mind, it actually strongly points that contrary to the thoughts of most here, Apple actually truly thinks it's worse for their users and therefore will spend extra to ensure only those users whose governments who think they know better than Apple are negatively impacted.
Apple knows it’s worse for their users and for their developers, but they know the large companies that can’t find any other way to make a profit aren’t going to stop. In the end, if it moves more iPhones for Apple making them MORE available around the world, it’s still a win for them.
 
Overall a more agreeable version of the DMA if I read this correctly. It still allowes Apple to control and design their own OS but also requires them to allow competition. But with keeping safety and privacy checks.
It does nothing for REAL competition though, the kind of competition that Apple was to Nokia. With every region solidifying their need for the iPhone as a part of their mobile tech future, that’s one more region that will be resistant to ACTUAL competition happening.
 
People supporting the status quo are supporting a handful of apps subsidizing all other apps. I’d rather Apple come up with another way of charging for the use of their IP. And then offer 3rd party payments in-app along side Apple’s IAP. Let Apple compete in the payments space. Those who prefer to have all their payments go through Apple can continue to do so. Those who are fine with a 3rd party option can use it. And smaller developers who don’t want to use/offer a 3rd party option wouldn’t have to.
It sounds like how taxes work (or at least, how it would work if billionaires could somehow be made to pay their share). You don't exclude the people who basically pay zero taxes from partaking in your country's infrastructure, do you?

From a system perspective, I like it.

Developers of free apps don't have to pay Apple anything (beyond the $100/year). This is the crucial part - it's all these free apps that add vibrancy and vitality to the iOS app ecosystem (not so much your standard issue apps like Facebook or Instagram, because they are available on all platforms, so it doesn't really help iOS stand out).

If you make under $1 million, you pay 15%, which is likely pretty competitive compared to what third payment payment options have to offer (which usually works out to at least 10-12%).

And for the bigger apps, I have little qualms about making the likes of Fortnite and Clash of Clans pay.

So when you think about it, the current system is actually set up to benefit the smaller developers at the expense of the larger ones (who have themselves stood to benefit from Apple's lucrative user base and the ease of making App Store purchases). The people here are actually fighting for the opposite - to benefit your way larger developers at the potential expense of your smaller ones.
 
  • Like
Reactions: surferfb
So when you think about it, the current system is actually set up to benefit the smaller developers at the expense of the larger ones (who have themselves stood to benefit from Apple's lucrative user base and the ease of making App Store purchases). The people here are actually fighting for the opposite - to benefit your way larger developers at the potential expense of your smaller ones.
It's amazing how Meta, Epic, Spotify, etc. were able to convince so many people on here that they have Apple's users' best interests at heart, not Apple. To the point that when a small developer posts on here that Apple's 15% is a great deal and makes their lives way easier they get told they're crazy and don't understand their own business.
 
So when you think about it, the current system is actually set up to benefit the smaller developers at the expense of the larger ones (who have themselves stood to benefit from Apple's lucrative user base and the ease of making App Store purchases). The people here are actually fighting for the opposite - to benefit your way larger developers at the potential expense of your smaller ones.

How about they hold the largest developers to the rules and not cut different/side deals?

What's the justification for not taking a cut of all sales through the Amazon App?

Aren't they using Apple IP that contributes to every single product sale in the App that came from Apple's App Store?
 
  • Like
Reactions: UliBaer
How about they hold the largest developers to the rules and not cut different/side deals?

What's the justification for not taking a cut of all sales through the Amazon App?

Aren't they using Apple IP that contributes to every single product sale in the App that came from Apple's App Store?
Digital content (which typically has zero marginal costs, and which tend to be consumed on your mobile device) vs the delivery of physical goods or services (which tend to have fairly high marginal cost of production), but you already knew that, and it's a point of contention where we are just going to have to agree to disagree on.

This is pretty consistent regardless of whether you are buying from the largest developers (eg: amazon / uber / whatever your country's dominant online shopping or ride-hailing platform is), or a small-time one, at least.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marte91
Digital content (which typically has zero marginal costs, and which tend to be consumed on your mobile device) vs the delivery of physical goods or services (which tend to have fairly high marginal cost of production), but you already knew that, and it's a point of contention where we are just going to have to agree to disagree on.

From the perspective of using Apple IP in the App, there should be zero distinction between digital and physical goods (in a fair world). Both types of products are being "digitally accessed/purchased/consumed" through the App that uses Apple IP.

This is one of the strongest arguments against the case Apple tries to make here.

It's a completely artificial construct and distinction done solely to support their desires.
 
From the perspective of using Apple IP in the App for sales, there should be zero distinction between digital and physical goods (in a fair world). Both types of products are being "digitally accessed/purchased/consumed" in the App.

This is one of the strongest arguments against the case Apple tries to make here.

It's a completely artificial construct and distinction done solely to support their desires.

Not really.

I subscribe to Netflix via the app - I watch Netflix on my phone. Consumption of a digital service, with no physical output to show for it.

I call for an uber - it results in a physical car arriving at my location. Same with groceries. There is no digital output.

I won’t say it’s to support their desires. Rather, it acknowledges the constraints of real-life economics. The only outlier here is Spotify, but that’s more an issue with the business model it has chosen to adopt here.
 
  • Love
Reactions: marte91
The EU should adopt Japan’s stance on this, not the other way around.
EU and Japan can learn from each other. Japan's approach seems to more case by case and less confrontational at least regarding interoperability. On the other hand some reporting suggests, that the Japanese Anti-Trust agency has much more discretion to adapt the rules in case they don't like how Apple and Google comply. Otherwise, the two frameworks are remarkably similar.

I think there might also be cultural factors at play why Apple has chosen a less confrontational stance in Japan. But I'm really no expert on how Japan works, so it's just speculation.
 
Last edited:
Don’t developers have to pay a fee to Apple in order to build apps and get them on the App Store? Does that fee have nothing to do with use of Apple’s IP?
It's a subscription to the tools/support to create an app. It does not allow you free rain on Apple's IP. Would you allow anyone free rain on your IP for $99 a year?

If you make money selling on the platform, you pay Apple a cut. If you don't make money, then you don't pay Apple anything. Now they have formalized how much Apple is allowed to make in that market. Hard numbers. Not arbitrary or "It should be less" than "what"?

I'm more ok with this than what others (EPIC/EU) have proposed.
 
It's a subscription to the tools/support to create an app. It does not allow you free rain on Apple's IP. Would you allow anyone free rain on your IP for $99 a year?

If you make money selling on the platform, you pay Apple a cut. If you don't make money, then you don't pay Apple anything. Now they have formalized how much Apple is allowed to make in that market. Hard numbers. Not arbitrary or "It should be less" than "what"?

I'm more ok with this than what others (EPIC/EU) have proposed.

Can you please elaborate on the difference between:

Apple IP being used by developers

and

"the tools/support to create an app"?


I thought "the tools/support to create an app" was the Apple IP they are using?
 
Digital content (which typically has zero marginal costs, and which tend to be consumed on your mobile device) vs the delivery of physical goods or services (which tend to have fairly high marginal cost of production), but you already knew that, and it's a point of contention where we are just going to have to agree to disagree on.

This is pretty consistent regardless of whether you are buying from the largest developers (eg: amazon / uber / whatever your country's dominant online shopping or ride-hailing platform is), or a small-time one, at least.
It must be remembered that Epic’s problem was not the fee initially. It was that Apple wouldn’t cut them a better deal than was already in place. From the bottom to the top of the pile, if you met the requirements for a “type” of business, then, even though Amazon was the reason WHY Apple cut the deal, Apple let Amazon know that it wasn’t an Amazon deal. Anyone else that approached them with the same type of business would get the same deal.

The system some regions are moving to only makes it easier for the companies that have a lot of money to make a lot more money.
 
I think there might also be cultural factors at play why Apple has chosen a less confrontational stance in Japan. But I'm really no expert on how Japan works, so it's just speculation.
They’ve taken a less confrontational stance because Japan didn’t start with a confrontation. Japan knows how to regulate tech companies in a way that doesn’t end up with them moving their base of operations out of the region. They know how important tech is and how it’s better to have those revenues coming into the region than to go somewhere else.
 
They’ve taken a less confrontational stance because Japan didn’t start with a confrontation. Japan knows how to regulate tech companies in a way that doesn’t end up with them moving their base of operations out of the region. They know how important tech is and how it’s better to have those revenues coming into the region than to go somewhere else.
It's too soon to draw conclusions I think. We don't know how the Japanese government and public will react when Apple starts to play games like they did in the EU.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: marte91
I haven’t read through all the various court documents or filings with governing bodies. Has Apple ever explained how they come up with figures like the ones below? Is there an actual logic to these figures?
The U.S. judge attempted to resolve the issue, but it didn’t lead anywhere. Essentially, Apple’s position is that they typically receive a certain amount from x country or market- then they plan to implement a complex pricing strategy to maintain that same revenue level
 
if you think this is deep or evil look into the methods of avoiding the church's rule against usery (say around 1000 or so) when trading with the east.inventing methods of avoiding rules is almost as old as rules themselves (since the rule has to exist in order to avoid it)
 
It sounds like how taxes work (or at least, how it would work if billionaires could somehow be made to pay their share). You don't exclude the people who basically pay zero taxes from partaking in your country's infrastructure, do you?

From a system perspective, I like it.

Developers of free apps don't have to pay Apple anything (beyond the $100/year). This is the crucial part - it's all these free apps that add vibrancy and vitality to the iOS app ecosystem (not so much your standard issue apps like Facebook or Instagram, because they are available on all platforms, so it doesn't really help iOS stand out).

If you make under $1 million, you pay 15%, which is likely pretty competitive compared to what third payment payment options have to offer (which usually works out to at least 10-12%).

And for the bigger apps, I have little qualms about making the likes of Fortnite and Clash of Clans pay.

So when you think about it, the current system is actually set up to benefit the smaller developers at the expense of the larger ones (who have themselves stood to benefit from Apple's lucrative user base and the ease of making App Store purchases). The people here are actually fighting for the opposite - to benefit your way larger developers at the potential expense of your smaller ones.
I thought we were talking about the use of Apple’s IP. What does that have to do with whether an app is “free” or not? If Apple deserves compensation for use of its IP then that should apply to every developer not just those that offer IAP.

What you’re talking about is not IP. What you’re saying is developers are only successful because of Apple and thus Apple deserves a share of their success.
 
They’ve taken a less confrontational stance because Japan didn’t start with a confrontation. Japan knows how to regulate tech companies in a way that doesn’t end up with them moving their base of operations out of the region. They know how important tech is and how it’s better to have those revenues coming into the region than to go somewhere else.
I believe that Apple's tax deal with Ireland started the confrontation between EU/EC and Apple. It never really recovered from that. Not entirely Apples fault because Ireland broke the EU laws but I wonder if not Apple pressed Ireland to a too good deal. Lot's of noise on the whole and bad PR for Apple. That 0.0005% tax on European profit did not go down well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UliBaer
Agreed. Choice = innovation. Greed-fueled lock-in = stagnation.

Competition is good. You can't pretend to believe in free-market capitalism and then argue that the government should be using its influence and coercion to protect a $1 trillion corporation's racket.

*That* is anti-innovation.
Competition based on someone else’s property is not competition. It’s governments playing Robin Hood.
 
Last edited:
I guess in America we are just third class users to Apple.
not really, I think the hope is if apple is 'bad' enough, apple will lose their place in the economic system (it's called the market at work but it can be perverted through various means - careful what you wish for)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.