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Jobs on HD DVD Burners
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OT: new web site design
Boxy is in.
My company is moving to a similar, boxy style - it's winning awards all over the place they tell me: www.travelocity.com
Get used to it - all their pro app pages are in that style: www.apple.com/finalcutpro (for example)ryanw said:
Boxy is in.
My company is moving to a similar, boxy style - it's winning awards all over the place they tell me: www.travelocity.com
Some geek will find a way.
There is always going to be some geek somewhere who is smart enough to crack the DRM of any given technology. From there, the information will spread and for those willing to go through the trouble - they'll be able to illegally duplicate copyrighted material.
While, yes, the entertainment industry should look into the strongest most reliable security that they can find - they also have to realize that the geeks will always be able to get one step ahead of them. There is no solution to end all solutions.
So, there is certainly no reason to hold back new technology. The fact that Mr. Jobs - of the "Rip, Mix, Burn" era of Apple would be so arrogant and hypocritical as to suggest that the next evolution of DVD be halted and kept from all computers is plain silly. I guess that means us poor Apple users won't be enjoying the benefits of HD-DVD any time soon.
There is always going to be some geek somewhere who is smart enough to crack the DRM of any given technology. From there, the information will spread and for those willing to go through the trouble - they'll be able to illegally duplicate copyrighted material.
While, yes, the entertainment industry should look into the strongest most reliable security that they can find - they also have to realize that the geeks will always be able to get one step ahead of them. There is no solution to end all solutions.
So, there is certainly no reason to hold back new technology. The fact that Mr. Jobs - of the "Rip, Mix, Burn" era of Apple would be so arrogant and hypocritical as to suggest that the next evolution of DVD be halted and kept from all computers is plain silly. I guess that means us poor Apple users won't be enjoying the benefits of HD-DVD any time soon.
Just my 2 cents on various points brought up.
First, Laso, I can understand your confusion. The state of digital video right now is very confusing. Especially when it comes to HD because there are so many flavors and varients of HD. The HD used by Lucas, the HD used by local news station, the HD you actually view on your TV and the up-coming HD-DVDs are all different versions, and different qualties, of HD. There is even a new HD format based off of MiniDV called HDV. And many stations are choosing to air lower quality HD so they can air more channels as opposed to using a higher quality HD and having fewer channels.
Second, trying to compare the frame rates of film, video games, and TV is pointless because they are three very different mediums. And yes, as one poster mentioned 24fps for film was choosen as a cost saving measure because it was "good enough." "24p" is the current buzz because it looks more like film. And film, refering to both the medium and motion pictures, has an artist and prestigious<sp?> air about it that video and TV does not. Video still has a home video/low-quality stigma to it. Even though HD can rival film and the average person probably can't tell the difference. So, I guess what I'm saying, is video isn't trying to immulate film becauses film is higher quality (in terms of frame rate and such) but because there is a public perception that projects that are shot on film are of higher quality than those that are shot on video.
Lastly, when refering to SD video it is 30fps (frames per second) not 60fps (fields per second). Although sometimes I've seen to it refered to as "60i" on new digital cameras that can do various forms of HD and SD.
Lethal
First, Laso, I can understand your confusion. The state of digital video right now is very confusing. Especially when it comes to HD because there are so many flavors and varients of HD. The HD used by Lucas, the HD used by local news station, the HD you actually view on your TV and the up-coming HD-DVDs are all different versions, and different qualties, of HD. There is even a new HD format based off of MiniDV called HDV. And many stations are choosing to air lower quality HD so they can air more channels as opposed to using a higher quality HD and having fewer channels.
Second, trying to compare the frame rates of film, video games, and TV is pointless because they are three very different mediums. And yes, as one poster mentioned 24fps for film was choosen as a cost saving measure because it was "good enough." "24p" is the current buzz because it looks more like film. And film, refering to both the medium and motion pictures, has an artist and prestigious<sp?> air about it that video and TV does not. Video still has a home video/low-quality stigma to it. Even though HD can rival film and the average person probably can't tell the difference. So, I guess what I'm saying, is video isn't trying to immulate film becauses film is higher quality (in terms of frame rate and such) but because there is a public perception that projects that are shot on film are of higher quality than those that are shot on video.
Lastly, when refering to SD video it is 30fps (frames per second) not 60fps (fields per second). Although sometimes I've seen to it refered to as "60i" on new digital cameras that can do various forms of HD and SD.
Lethal
nuckinfutz said:
You know its odd that you say that... I was at an apple video something or other where they were showing off motion betas and other various video production software. The main point that they were trying to get across was how the market was adapting to HD and how prices were coming down. The guy was really pushing moving to HD and was talking about future size increases on DVDs.
HD DVD Burners are already available from SONY
I read it this week in PC World that SONY sells a blu-ray 23GB-Per-Layer Professioal Disc For Data . The specs are : top write speed of 6.5X ( 9 MBps ) , 23 Gb storage capacity . Sells for $3300 for USB 2.0 external drive or $2996 for an internal SCSI-3 drive. Sorry Steve, you are too late.
I read it this week in PC World that SONY sells a blu-ray 23GB-Per-Layer Professioal Disc For Data . The specs are : top write speed of 6.5X ( 9 MBps ) , 23 Gb storage capacity . Sells for $3300 for USB 2.0 external drive or $2996 for an internal SCSI-3 drive. Sorry Steve, you are too late.
ryanw said:
eric_n_dfw said:
Ok, I've been to both. Personally, I like having the areas defined like that. And Travelocity is not the only site to have that style. Pretty much all of the major travel-related sites use it. I find it makes things much cleaner and better defined.
Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against white space, but I think it helps contain what's being viewed better.
DRM, Restrictions, et al
The more I deal with this stuff, the more I hate anything and anyone who gets mixed up in it. I work for a call center for a major PC manufacturer (hate to admit I'm supporting the WinTel platform, but it pays the bills). We are dealing with DRM in a lot of products, and naturally products made by other companies. I've also had to deal with a lot of stupidity in it's implimentation. Anyhow, I am completely turned offf personally to DRM because of the PIA it brings anyone who gets involved.
I remember when Sony first released the CLIEs, and then started releasing models that could play back audio. Of course, I use a Mac (naturally) so I have never been a position to use their software, but I can't imagine having to put up with all that crap either.
I don't get into video production (DTP is my main squease), and I watch practically 0 tv (1-2 hrs. per month, max), so by definition, this will all affect me far less than the average person, but the hair on the back of my neck still stands on end when someone tries to "tell me what I can or cannot do". I also have problems with "rights" because, so long as I don't try to profit in some way from someone elses' work, I don't want anyone telling me what I can or can't do.
The more I deal with this stuff, the more I hate anything and anyone who gets mixed up in it. I work for a call center for a major PC manufacturer (hate to admit I'm supporting the WinTel platform, but it pays the bills). We are dealing with DRM in a lot of products, and naturally products made by other companies. I've also had to deal with a lot of stupidity in it's implimentation. Anyhow, I am completely turned offf personally to DRM because of the PIA it brings anyone who gets involved.
I remember when Sony first released the CLIEs, and then started releasing models that could play back audio. Of course, I use a Mac (naturally) so I have never been a position to use their software, but I can't imagine having to put up with all that crap either.
I don't get into video production (DTP is my main squease), and I watch practically 0 tv (1-2 hrs. per month, max), so by definition, this will all affect me far less than the average person, but the hair on the back of my neck still stands on end when someone tries to "tell me what I can or cannot do". I also have problems with "rights" because, so long as I don't try to profit in some way from someone elses' work, I don't want anyone telling me what I can or can't do.
fartheststar said:
Read all the posts before you flame me, I used the uprez term becuase it was used before, I did not make up the term.
And second, I am sorry I posted incorrect information, I am only human, can you please forgive me? Most of the people that have flamed me just say, "You are wrong" or "God that is the stupidist thing I have ever heard", yet few explain why. NOBODY, has answered my question as to why 1080i footage looks WAY better on my HDTV than the "HD" HBO movies.
So please tell me, becuase I am really confused, since film is such higher resolution, it "should" look at least the same quality of 1080i.
Thanks, and please take it easy, it's a macrumors messageboard
Man, technology seems to be moving so fast nowadays - not that I'm complaining in the least! I remember what only seems like a short time ago when I was excited to get a 8x CD burner for a measly $300, and CD-RWs were so expensive. Then DVDs came out, and don't even think about getting a DVD burner - they were $4000! Now we have DVD burners, DVD-RWs, and dual layer DVDs on the horizon, along with HD DVDs - bring on holographic storage!!!
I remember what only seems like a short time ago when I was excited to get a 8x CD burner for a measly $300, and CD-RWs were so expensive. Then DVDs came out, and don't even think about getting a DVD burner - they were $4000! Now we have DVD burners, DVD-RWs, and dual layer DVDs on the horizon, along with HD DVDs - bring on holographic storage!!! 
I can't believe SJ even said this.
Pandora's box was open back when CD burners began to be marketed. Another user already beat me to it: "Some geek will find a way."
DRM will never be succesfull, as newer and faster computers are sold. If anyone is nit-witted enough to even think for more than a picosecond that someday a fool-proof copy protection will be invented, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Ummm...like hello?! A few hours after WinXP began selling there was already a circumvention to the futile attempt at its copy-protection and activation.
We will adapt. Resistance is futile.
Pandora's box was open back when CD burners began to be marketed. Another user already beat me to it: "Some geek will find a way."
DRM will never be succesfull, as newer and faster computers are sold. If anyone is nit-witted enough to even think for more than a picosecond that someday a fool-proof copy protection will be invented, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Ummm...like hello?! A few hours after WinXP began selling there was already a circumvention to the futile attempt at its copy-protection and activation.
We will adapt. Resistance is futile.
Laslo Panaflex said:Read all the posts before you flame me, I used the uprez term becuase it was used before, I did not make up the term.
And second, I am sorry I posted incorrect information, I am only human, can you please forgive me? Most of the people that have flamed me just say, "You are wrong" or "God that is the stupidist thing I have ever heard", yet few explain why. NOBODY, has answered my question as to why 1080i footage looks WAY better on my HDTV than the "HD" HBO movies.
So please tell me, becuase I am really confused, since film is such higher resolution, it "should" look at least the same quality of 1080i.
Thanks, and please take it easy, it's a macrumors messageboard
Read my post Laslo. The HD you are getting on your TV is super compressed compared to what comes out of an HD camera, that say, Lucas is using. Broadcasters most often use the extra bandwidth HD has to send out more channels of low quality HD rather than fewer channels of high quality HD. Just the like the standard def video you buy on DVD, or see on TV, today is no where near the quality of the standard def video used by pros to create that content the HD quality video you watch at home is no where near the HD quality used by pros.
You arguement is fundamentally flawed. It's like saying AAC is higher quality than a CD because the AAC file you bought from iTunes sounds better than 56k MP3 that was ripped from a CD.
Lethal
nuckinfutz said:
Because you need to scan the ORIGINAL film negative at ultra full resolution and convert it to ultra hgh res that HD is not compatible. HD has about 1000 lines, film has 4000. do the math
legion said:
The Imagica scanner actually scan at 8k and they use a pc to control it with your choice of os, and Lowry uses macs here is the link
http://www.apple.com/pro/film/lowry/
I agree with you 100% on this one
I am really surprised - 80 plus posts here about DRM, fairplay, copying, encryption etc etc, YET nobody has mentioned what, IMHO, the REAL cause of lost revenue to the RIAA and the movie business.
Sure they lose money when John and Jane Doe rent movies and make copies for themselves, or buy movies and CD's and make copies for friends - still, you're talking nickel and dime stuff - the real loss of revenue is when the professional pirates in the Far East and elsewhere make knockoffs by the zillions and sell them for pennies, sometimes even a week or two before the movies premiere.
And it's not just movies either, it's Gucci belts, Rolex watches, Ford Brakes, Boeing plane parts etc etc. This not only robs the rightful copyright owners, but fake plane, car and helicopter parts have been known to be the cause of many fatal accidents.
I honestly believe that most of these companies spend way too much time chasing down teenagers and 80 year old grandmothers and not enough time and money in shutting down the *REAL* pirates!!!
Soire said:How do HD DVD burners present greater legal issues than regular DVDs?
It's all digital content, so why does greater quality mean greater risk?
I am really surprised - 80 plus posts here about DRM, fairplay, copying, encryption etc etc, YET nobody has mentioned what, IMHO, the REAL cause of lost revenue to the RIAA and the movie business.
Sure they lose money when John and Jane Doe rent movies and make copies for themselves, or buy movies and CD's and make copies for friends - still, you're talking nickel and dime stuff - the real loss of revenue is when the professional pirates in the Far East and elsewhere make knockoffs by the zillions and sell them for pennies, sometimes even a week or two before the movies premiere.
And it's not just movies either, it's Gucci belts, Rolex watches, Ford Brakes, Boeing plane parts etc etc. This not only robs the rightful copyright owners, but fake plane, car and helicopter parts have been known to be the cause of many fatal accidents.
I honestly believe that most of these companies spend way too much time chasing down teenagers and 80 year old grandmothers and not enough time and money in shutting down the *REAL* pirates!!!
absolut_mac said:
This is exactly why there is an air of caution (and sometimes paranoria) by content creation companies in the US because they don't want the States to end up like China. Once it gets that bad there is no stopping it. And companies, and governments, are doing what they can to combat pirates over seas but they are very limited in what they can do. It's another country(s) w/a government(s) that don't seem to care about the rampant piracy in their country.
And you don't hear about it much in the news because "Company X pleading w/Government Y" isn't nearly as headline grabbing as "Company X sues 8 month old fetus."
Lethal
Yeah, those guys. It would make digital life much easier for the rest of us if the pro pirates got shut down. Not all of them are in eastern Asia, but the hard to get ones are. Unfortunately, due to political and trade restrictions, it will be hard to have them shut down, or at least severely crippled.absolut_mac said:
It's not surprising that this isn't discussed. We're an Apple technology board, not a political discussion list (maybe we need a new forum here ;-)absolut_mac said:
You're right in some of what you said though - too often companies (and governments) are more concerned with making something LOOK like they're doing good, rather than actually doing good (which is much harder).
To bring it back to an Apple viewpoint - I don't know what the average income is in America, but US$10 for a CD is an acceptable price on iTMS. Does anyone know what the average income is in China?, and what a CD (a LEGAL one!!) costs in China? Is income taken into account? What about for computer software?
I think it would be fair for a CD to cost an average person 1 hour of work for instance, altered for their country. Would you get pissed off if Apple release iTMS in China at US$1 an ALBUM? Or paid US$13 for a legal 10.3/Panther (what do they pay?)?
Ooops too political?
Wrong Assumption
This is a incorrect assumption. Correct me if I am wrong, but would a HD/DVD would be similar to a DVD, but with higher capacity? Everyone here well knows that we are always asking for more space....even on our removable media so Jobs would be incorrect here.
Current HD camcorders are NOT what I would consider consumer level. MAYBE prosumer level,but definitely not in the realm of the mom and dad wanting a cam to record baby's first steps. Even if it would be prosumer, it's still not common enough. The consumer level is what drives the market not prosumers. In any case, why would anyone want to record HD video yet? It's just now starting to hit the prices where most consumers will consider it, but maybe not purchase it. In another year, then MAYBE it will be cheap enough for 80 percent of consumers to consider replacing thier TV's And THAT isn't a guarantee either. Consider that you STILL have to LOOK for HD content on the broadcast end and most local news is still being done in analog and if it's being broadcast in some digital mode, it's not High Def, but Standard Def. So besides being a geek, what other reason is there for me to CONSIDER a HDTV or HDDVD? Sure it's cool and all, and DVD's will look great on the HD monitor, but they already look good on my Mac and my TV. What else is there??
eric_n_dfw said:
This is a incorrect assumption. Correct me if I am wrong, but would a HD/DVD would be similar to a DVD, but with higher capacity? Everyone here well knows that we are always asking for more space....even on our removable media so Jobs would be incorrect here.
Current HD camcorders are NOT what I would consider consumer level. MAYBE prosumer level,but definitely not in the realm of the mom and dad wanting a cam to record baby's first steps. Even if it would be prosumer, it's still not common enough. The consumer level is what drives the market not prosumers. In any case, why would anyone want to record HD video yet? It's just now starting to hit the prices where most consumers will consider it, but maybe not purchase it. In another year, then MAYBE it will be cheap enough for 80 percent of consumers to consider replacing thier TV's And THAT isn't a guarantee either. Consider that you STILL have to LOOK for HD content on the broadcast end and most local news is still being done in analog and if it's being broadcast in some digital mode, it's not High Def, but Standard Def. So besides being a geek, what other reason is there for me to CONSIDER a HDTV or HDDVD? Sure it's cool and all, and DVD's will look great on the HD monitor, but they already look good on my Mac and my TV. What else is there??
gorkonapple said:
I have been resisting getting into this part of the discussion mostly because I have little interest in tv, etc. However, having seen HDTV, while there is certainly no question it is much higher quality than regular NTSC, I'm still left wondering if this is what most people want. Having nothing to do with quality, do most people want a TV with several times the resolution just to watch some soaps, a night-time drama, the news and Leno?
If anything, maybe this is technology that we should have had 10-15 years ago, but now that tv has just become more mindless, it just seems to me like more of a waste. Again, as I have said previously, I watch barely any tv in a typical month, and haven't in many, many years. If you exclude the period I'd watch when Babylon 5 was being rebroadcast, from approx. 1993 to the present, I bet I have watched barely 500 hours of TV, if even that much, so frankly if they quit broadcasting it, I'd hardly even notice.
I do agree with you about regional pricing...
Of course I do agree with you about regional pricing, but we already have that. It may not be perfect, but no system is going to please everyone.
As for my comments being too political, possibly, but I don't think so. What Steve and his Hollywood friends are proposing is almost identical to the Sony/Disney case from 25 years ago, and the very reason why Disney sued Sony in the first place in that now famous landmark case which clarified consumers fair use rights.
That is "let's cripple the technology, or restrict it because we cannot control it with 100% effectiveness and it might - the key word here being might - eat slightly into our profits".
Everything in life is a compromise, and it's about time these greedy companies accepted consumers fair use rights and turned their efforts to the real thieves - the professional counterfeiters!!!!
GregA said:
Of course I do agree with you about regional pricing, but we already have that. It may not be perfect, but no system is going to please everyone.
As for my comments being too political, possibly, but I don't think so. What Steve and his Hollywood friends are proposing is almost identical to the Sony/Disney case from 25 years ago, and the very reason why Disney sued Sony in the first place in that now famous landmark case which clarified consumers fair use rights.
That is "let's cripple the technology, or restrict it because we cannot control it with 100% effectiveness and it might - the key word here being might - eat slightly into our profits".
Everything in life is a compromise, and it's about time these greedy companies accepted consumers fair use rights and turned their efforts to the real thieves - the professional counterfeiters!!!!
Consumer Hi-Def Camcorder
- Dave Cook
That Camera ROCKS! JVC Hi-Def Camcorder I think I'll wait for it to come down a bit in price though. Hi-Def for the masses babynuckinfutz said:
- Dave Cook
Flynnstone said:
Bull ****. I challenge you to find me a spec that states this in a laptop hard drive. They are NOT built into the drive. In the case of IBM's laptop its a FEATURE of the laptop not the drive. Stop talking crap
Yep - I'm sorry (but not real shocked) to hear this...
And honestly, I don't think you're correct on what "the point is" either. The point, quite simply, is that with an HD recorder in one's PC, you *could potentially* make copies of Hollywood's movie content in the same high level of quality they want to sell it to you in. I don't think Apple/Jobs cares a bit whether or not other uses for HD DVD recorders appear! Even if there were 200 great uses for one besides pirating movies, he'd still not want to see it hit the market without some sort of copy protection scheme built in.
IMHO, that's very disappointing to hear, because it tells me Steve Jobs values maximizing his profits (Pixar) over giving the consumer a better, more powerful computer system. It also (in my opinion) further hints that Jobs is focused on turning Apple into more of a "media company" than a "computer company". As he realizes it's easier to rake in big $'s by producing or reselling entertainment content than by selling physical goods (computer hardware), he's going to lean more and more in that direction. Apple computers already suffer greatly from their (partially deserved) image as a computer "useful only for artists and film-makers". The "general public" sees a Mac and thinks "overpriced, style over substance boxes favored by Hollywood types" and moves on to a Windows PC purchase. I really hoped this would change drastically with the maturing of OS X and systems like the G5 - but it may not if Jobs keeps such a "tunnel vision" focus on DRM issues, selling music online, and advocating limitations on the abilities of new PCs/Macs to help prevent copying of movies.
And honestly, I don't think you're correct on what "the point is" either. The point, quite simply, is that with an HD recorder in one's PC, you *could potentially* make copies of Hollywood's movie content in the same high level of quality they want to sell it to you in. I don't think Apple/Jobs cares a bit whether or not other uses for HD DVD recorders appear! Even if there were 200 great uses for one besides pirating movies, he'd still not want to see it hit the market without some sort of copy protection scheme built in.
IMHO, that's very disappointing to hear, because it tells me Steve Jobs values maximizing his profits (Pixar) over giving the consumer a better, more powerful computer system. It also (in my opinion) further hints that Jobs is focused on turning Apple into more of a "media company" than a "computer company". As he realizes it's easier to rake in big $'s by producing or reselling entertainment content than by selling physical goods (computer hardware), he's going to lean more and more in that direction. Apple computers already suffer greatly from their (partially deserved) image as a computer "useful only for artists and film-makers". The "general public" sees a Mac and thinks "overpriced, style over substance boxes favored by Hollywood types" and moves on to a Windows PC purchase. I really hoped this would change drastically with the maturing of OS X and systems like the G5 - but it may not if Jobs keeps such a "tunnel vision" focus on DRM issues, selling music online, and advocating limitations on the abilities of new PCs/Macs to help prevent copying of movies.
eric_n_dfw said:
It's interesting that his two businesses have run into an area of conflicting interests. But I'm not convinced that we've really heard his definitive position.kingtj said:
Oh course, he probably gets more than $1/year salary from Pixar. Could that influence his strategic planning?