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Jobs Reportedly Says Final Cut Update 'Coming Early Next Year'

iBug2 said:
Yeah I know Apple's policy on low pricing to sell hardware and I think it's brilliant.
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I'm not complaining. On more than one occasion they forced the competition to offer more for less in order to compete and that's a great thing from a consumer perspective.

I don't know why they drop the software after a while though, discontinuing Shake didn't make any sense.
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I think once Apple saw just how deep down the post production rabbit hole they'd have to go to meaningfully support and develop Shake they decided it would be too much effort for too little return so bye-bye Shake. It was too much of a niche w/in a niche for Apple, IMO.


Lethal
 
LethalWolfe said:
I'm not complaining. On more than one occasion they forced the competition to offer more for less in order to compete and that's a great thing from a consumer perspective.


I think once Apple saw just how deep down the post production rabbit hole they'd have to go to meaningfully support and develop Shake they decided it would be too much effort for too little return so bye-bye Shake. It was too much of a niche w/in a niche for Apple, IMO.


Lethal
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Possible, but they must have known that when they purchased a highly niche product aimed only at large FX houses.

Checked the article on QT, and I must say I didn't think it would take that long for Apple to iterate QTX to catch up with QT. Seems like we'll have to wait a "while". Although that's no reason to delay the FCS overhaul, it can still work through QTKit Server.
 
foidulus said:
I would be surprised if we saw a 64 bit fcp before Lion. Apples qtkit API, which is thie only QuickTime API that you can compile in 64 bit, is really, REALLY primitive. Its going to require massive updating befor you would even think of running something like fcp with it. You cannot do anything more advanced than splice two videos together with it now. Hell even enumerating all th e codecs you can export to requires going down to 32 bits, and even the stuff that does compile in 64 bit requires a separate 32 bit process to actually do the work. T e sad thing is that apple has had plenty of time to update this API but they have essentially done nothing with it, which shows you how much they care about the pro users nowadays :mad:
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It never crossed your mind that maybe that's exactly what they've been working on all this time? That completing Quicktime X alongside the next version of FCP is what has caused this delay? It's not written in stone that the next version of Quicktime has to ship with Lion. They can ship it with FCP and pump it out in software update.
 
Astro7x said:
And who used Shake that its loss makes an impact? Apple could cut Motion and I don't think many would care.
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Shake was used for a lot of feature films by a lot of the big studios.

Nuke's now pretty much cleaned up in that space, as pretty much all the big studios (ILM, Weta, Sony, DD, Animal Logic, Cinesite, Image Engine, DNeg, Framestore, MPC, The Mill) have moved over to Nuke.

The problem with "really" pro apps like Nuke/Shake (and to a smaller extent FCP) is that they are used in part of a pipeline. The customer knows what they want, and they want flexibility, customisability, programmability, and they want software to work the way they do.

Apple doesn't really work like that - with the Pro apps they're slightly different, but in general their attitude is "this is what you need, do it this way. It'll be released soon and it will be awesome."
 
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iBug2 said:
You don't need to know a year ahead of Apple's product launch dates to run your business. There are lots of professionals using 5 year old software to get their millions of dollars of worth work done. I like software upgrades as much as the next guy, but just because it's cool to install new stuff, not that I'll be able to do much more than I can do right now with the new software.
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Yes you do if you're a big VFX house.

That's one of the reasons The Foundry (developer of Nuke, Mari, Storm) are so respected in the industry - they listen to what the customers want, go and visit them, and disclose the roadmap a year or so in advance, saying what will be in the next versions and pretty much exactly when they'll be released.

A lot of the new 3D stuff can't be done easily in FCP because it doesn't support stereoscopic playback (there are some plugins which help, but they're not that great), so it's rapidly showing its age. Same goes for RED file support.

3D stereoscopic playback is one of the reasons Shake is now showing its limits compared to Nuke. It's still very usable for the basics, but for new stuff, it's falling behind.
 
regardless of industry standard I'm just glad that there is still hope that another final cut studio coming out :)
 
iBug2 said:
Shake was pretty much the standard compositing tool for big budget movies when Apple discontinued it. So, a lot of people were using it, funnily, a lot of people still using it, despite being discontinued, it's still a solid product.
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I still use Shake and have had no issues.... :D
 
Most of the comments here I feel are due to the old saying!

"A BAD CRAFTSMAN ALWAYS BLAMES HIS TOOLS"

I know allot of people that do amazing stuff with FCP, Motion & Shake (myself included) :p
 
z4n3 said:
Most of the comments here I feel are due to the old saying!

"A BAD CRAFTSMAN ALWAYS BLAMES HIS TOOLS"

I know allot of people that do amazing stuff with FCP, Motion & Shake (myself included) :p
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The conversation isn't really about the tools but the tool maker.


Lethal
 
Astro7x said:
And when FCS4 comes out it will be a year ahead of CS5. What's your point?
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CS6 will be out by then, so what is YOUR point? You think that Adobe is just sitting around waiting to see what Apple comes up with? They have taken the lead while Apple has been focused on iToys.
 
iBug2 said:
Yeah I know Apple's policy on low pricing to sell hardware and I think it's brilliant. I don't know why they drop the software after a while though, discontinuing Shake didn't make any sense.
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I'm going to speculate about what happened. When Jobs brought Pixar to Disney and joined their board of directors, he was thinking that would be a good fit for the Macpro line of computers and software. It probably bothered him that Pixar (and Disney) were not using Apple computers and software to crunch all of those pixels. I'm pretty sure he saw that as an opportunity to get Apple further into that market.

Then along comes the success of iPhone and consumer level products that began to consume most of Apple resources. It was a fairly fresh market with much potential for massive profits. Shortly after that, Apple Computer changed it's name to just "Apple" and then diverted most of it's attention towards the market that we see today. Apple sold off any professional applications that they deemed to niche or required extensive resources to develop. I'm sure they hung onto FCS simply because there was some profit, and to feed Steve's ego. However, they haven't been that motivated to keep it on the forefront because they didn't have the resources, nor the motivation.

I'm pretty sure that if you were to ask most of the people on the board of directors at Apple if they should keep the professional line, I'm sure that most of them would say no. The money is not in that sector compared to consumer devices and content delivery. As each day goes by, the Mac professional line of computers and software are becoming more and more a niche product and I think that Apple will eventually discontinue them and become solely a consumer product company. They will make devices for the everyday consumer and sell/rent/commission content to deliver to those devices. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that is only going to get bigger. The professional line is not close to being as profitable and it takes a lot of resources to stay current. My guess is that it will be phased out over the next 5 years. How? By slowing down the updates until the pros migrate to other systems. Eventually, Apple will declare the market dead and stop production. By then, no one will care. But don't worry, you'll have a really cool iPhone and still be able to buy an iMac. :rolleyes:
 
Mizzurah said:
Transformers 2 was cut on Avid.

http://www.avid.com/US/about-avid/customer-stories/Transformers-Revenge-of-the-Fallen

iBug2 where do you get your information from?
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From the Transformers 2 Blu Ray, watch the documentaries when Bay is visiting his editors, 4 editors cutting separately, they all had Mac setups with FCP running.

So now I wonder if they used both FCP and Avid. And the quote from the editor is stupid on that link "I don't know anyone doing 200mil movies and not cutting them on media composer". Benjamin Button was cut on FCP and it's a 200mil movie.
 
iBug2 said:
From the Transformers 2 Blu Ray, watch the documentaries when Bay is visiting his editors, 4 editors cutting separately, they all had Mac setups with FCP running.

So now I wonder if they used both FCP and Avid. And the quote from the editor is stupid on that link "I don't know anyone doing 200mil movies and not cutting them on media composer". Benjamin Button was cut on FCP and it's a 200mil movie.
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Are you sure it was FCP and not just the generic NLE layout you saw?

They wouldn't use both - if they were using MC, the only other app they might export to would be Scratch.

Also, he's technically correct: Benjamin Button's budget was $150 million.
 
berkut said:
Are you sure it was FCP and not just the generic NLE layout you saw?

They wouldn't use both - if they were using MC, the only other app they might export to would be Scratch.

Also, he's technically correct: Benjamin Button's budget was $150 million.
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Now you made me doubt myself, gonna go check the bluray. :)

And about Button, ah so I suppose the extra 50 mil makes you go AMC. :)

Edit: Checked the blu ray, I stand corrected they are using Avid. When I saw the Apple keyboards and Apple Cinema displays with OS X background all over the place, I must have automatically assumed it was FCP. Why would they use macs for AMC though?
 
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iBug2 said:
Now you made me doubt myself, gonna go check the bluray. :)

And about Button, ah so I suppose the extra 50 mil makes you go AMC. :)

Edit: Checked the blu ray, I stand corrected they are using Avid. When I saw the Apple keyboards and Apple Cinema displays with OS X background all over the place, I must have automatically assumed it was FCP. Why would they use macs for AMC though?
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The first Avid came out in 1989 on a Mac IIx. Most people up until a couple of years ago where still editing with Avid Xpress/Film Composer on Power Macintosh 9600's and G3/G4 machines because they cut and cut really well. You used to not be able to separate the word Apple from Avid until they started being bad about working with other developers over the span of OS X. I.E. Avid, Adobe & Macromedia. And developing competing products. You've seen what Steve can do with a product like flash and ban it from an OS. So Adobe and Avid started not putting all their eggs in one basket and that's why you started seeing alot of software on apple's migrate to PC's because of Apple's behavior for better or worse.

I still love cutting on a MAC though I started a young poor PC guy that couldn't afford a G4 tower and cinema display.
 
Mizzurah said:
The first Avid came out in 1989 on a Mac IIx. Most people up until a couple of years ago where still editing with Avid Xpress/Film Composer on Power Macintosh 9600's and G3/G4 machines because they cut and cut really well. You used to not be able to separate the word Apple from Avid until they started being bad about working with other developers over the span of OS X. I.E. Avid, Adobe & Macromedia. And developing competing products. You've seen what Steve can do with a product like flash and ban it from an OS. So Adobe and Avid started not putting all their eggs in one basket and that's why you started seeing alot of software on apple's migrate to PC's because of Apple's behavior for better or worse.
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IMO the story goes slightly different. Apple was circling the drain, Mac-centric developers went "Oh, *****!" and developed Windows versions of their Apps. Steve went "Oh, *****" and started developing first party apps as a matter of necessity. It's not a coincidence that a rash of first party apps started appearing around the same time (99/00). iMovie, iTunes, iDVD and iPhoto all hit the streets around the same time and they were all free. FCP landed during the same time and while it was not free it was ridiculously cheaper than Avid's offerings.

Avid also flirted w/the idea of dropping the Mac entirely when the G4 started to stagnate (thanks Motorola), but Mac faithful editors dang near busted out the torches and pitch forks so Avid quickly backed peddled. The PC version of Avid did start to take priority though and it was only a couple of years ago that platform parity returned to Avid's products.


Lethal
 
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Mac Pros are profitable for Apple so are Pro Apps, they have no reason to drop them. I've worked on PPro CS5 and it's very good, but it also has issues.

I cut on FCP almost every day, all in HD and lots of formats and it still works very well and more importantly it's been reliable.

Avid is and has always been a very powerful tool, it's rock solid media management mean it's the no1 choice for movies and large TV shows, neither FCP or Premiere can compete with it on that level.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new FCP offers.
 
I've mailed Steve twice over this issue. The last time with a link to a petition I started which got over 700 Signatures from Pro Users and Techies' : http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/applepros/ in just a few days. I got zero replies from anyone @ Apple regarding this, though I know for a fact that Apple are aware of it and quite high up the hierarchy too...
I really prefer to Cut on FCP and it's also my job to build/support FCP systems, But Apple really needs to be careful as Premier currently has much more forward looking suppport (64bit/Cuda etc etc) and the 'new' Avid is finally listening to customers and being very aggressive in the market again. If Apple isn't interested in this area anymore I dont see why they don't spin it off into a Pro Division kinda like Filemaker... We know it does make money. At the moment they are truly harming themselves with this policy...

Al.
 
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